Regarding the electrical power offered by keyboard connectors *I think* I remember reports in 90s magazines about issues regarding that when using certain combinations of advanced flight sticks and keyboards on the same connection. IIRC power consumption varied from keyboard to keyboard. Though I'm not sure if all that was in regards to PS/2- or AT-keyboard connectors.

I use a SNES to parallel solution currently, through SNESKey. It's mostly okay. Something like this would be better.

Jinxter wrote on 2020-05-12, 14:54:

Has anybody testet the gamepadLPT and compared these?
Video: https://youtu.be/X6jG2qTPpNk

Sure we tried SNESKey! Here's the one I botched from computer junk in my house :

I'd be too lazy to go though the hassle of making my Pad-to-PS/2 converter, if this thing was perfect. The problems I encountered were:
1. It did not work with all of my PCs (it does not work on Compaq LTE 5000 you see in my video);
2. It works on my IBM Thinkpad 560. Though I've ran into problems: It did not work form the box, I needed to play with some configs to make it start.
3. It has some strange buffering lag. When you wiggle your joystick (ahem!), it takes some time to execute each additional input (does not wiggle as fast as you do). Had really hard time shaking off those facehuggers in Duke Nukem 2. It may amass buffered wiggle-lag as long as half a second!

If you want to have this thing - hack a printer cable you might have lying about, or buy amazingly high-quality one in dreamblaster's shop here: https://www.serdashop.com/GAMEPADLPT

The thing is cool. Sadly it did not work for me.

Situation report. Updated DB9 routines. Been playing with these:

Many thanks to Tiido! It turns out that that 6-button controller pulls down Pins 1 and 2 at a very specific time to distinguish it from 3-button brethren. Failed to notice it while just poking about.

Had to notice some new usability issues, that I need to discuss with you:
1. I have no 2-button Atari joysticks or Master System pads. I could not test Button-2. It should work though.
2. You can't press START+MODE+Face Button with Atari joysticks or SEGA 3-button pad, as those don't have a MODE button. It means, with current design philosophy, you can't choose pre-set button layouts and get stuck with default settings after each boot. My experience:
i. Atari joystick button is L.Alt by default. Not the most popular button, really 😮 I managed to jump though the first level of Hocus Pocus without making a single shot!
ii. 3-button controller is: A: Space, B: L.Alt, C: L.Ctrl, Start: Esc. Sorta-kinda works, but you still have to mess with the keyboard to start the game.

My questions are:
1. Should I change the way you cycle through the presets? (I remind you that there are 6, which all are blank from the box) What would be the combo, you won't accidentally hit while playing?
2. Master System and Atari default layout is: Button 1: L.Alt, Button 2: L.Ctrl. Should I try to change it somehow?

What would be the best default layout you get each time after starting your PC?

P.S. Obviously this thing is (now) an Arduino-in-a box. I was too bored to make it into stand-alone product while botching it together for personal use. All routines, except, USB stack are made from scratch and pretty low-level (due to tight controller and PS/2 timing requirements), which may be ported to proper Atmel development... Exept USB stack, as it requires quite specific knowledge not obtainable by casual hacking. Would it be against your views if the device retained some of Arduino USB descriptors at the end? It should not become usability issue, as I'll kill all functionality except HID-keyboard (so Win98 should like it).

Properly studying USB-stack is doable, but might need some time.

why are you investigating usb connection? to connect usb keyboards to old systems or to connect usb pads?

keropi wrote on 2020-05-12, 18:09:

why are you investigating usb connection? to connect usb keyboards to old systems or to connect usb pads?

Don't want to be caught with false advertisement 😜

Also, I'm not studying it. It works. But ugly. It does not look ugly, but I know it is.

I want this thing to be compatible with modern hardware - to play emulators and indie games like Bloodstained: Curse of the Moon.
Also You'd be able to connect classic IBM bendy-spring keyboard to your modern rig.

USB is so convenient, I am even studying ways to make PS/2 wire detachable.

Amazing project!

Should you be considering an improved future version, may I suggest the possibility to hook the adapter up to both the PS/2 port and the DA-15 game port on the PC side? The idea behind that is the possibility to also support newer game controllers with analog thumb sticks, such as the PS1 and PS2 controllers. And in addition to that perhaps also a serial port connector, since that's how some force feedback implementations on the PC worked. Then it could be made to work with Dual Shock controllers as well. I saw you mention USB, but that of course would exclude many older retro PCs.

But maybe I'm going overboard with crazy ideas here. 😅

This is in no way a belittlement of your accomplishment. This is indeed a sleek device, and being able to play classic DOS games with a proper controller instead of an awkward joystick (especially the flimsy thin ones from that same era), as well as having access to more than 2 buttons, seems like so much fun. 😊

I just registered so I can't send a PM to you, but count me in on this.

Would be awesome with a two port version for two players, is it much extra work to add another port?

This also got me thinking of LGR's video of the Dynapoint GameStar:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ko1SEP-VtGs

BRIEF SITUATION REPORT.
The project is pretty much live and kicking. I am not attention-solicitating person, so I’m updating this thread only when I may disclose something useful.

Please don’t be alert if there is a large gap between my posts.

As of now, there are 12 people, who entrusted me with their e-mails. Since these days typing an e-mail address is MUCH HARDER than spending money – you guys are quite committed! 😉 12 “hard” wishes were enough to persuade me into laying out industrial PCB design, sorta-kinda estimating the Bill of Materials and even spending some pocket money for the sake of the project. I’m not asking you to push for 50 pre-orders as of now. But I will when I’ll be needing to commit to major investments for production!

I’ve encountered some minor setbacks. Want to share those with you:

1. I am designing a PCB, which hopefully shall cram into the same case as the one in the advert. But it’s small. I mean 50x70mm with rounded edges small. Furthermore, I wish to use the aftermarket plastic ports you see below. I’ve contacted the suppliers to get the specs (or at least PCB measurements) of the parts, but they, being Chinese, seem to be lacking will or understanding to provide me those. Therefore, I have to “guesstimate” the PCB layout. Since I can’t finish the PCB – there shall be a delay till I recive the parts to properly measure dimensions thereof.
2. I’ve become employable… for some reason. That means I’ll have less time to spend on the project (hence possible delays), but financing it should become less of an issue.

Thanks for your time and attention!
Volo

EDIT: P.S. I can PM now! Thanks, Admins!

Cheers for the update 😀 And good work finding yourself employable. That can never hurt.

Volo wrote on 2020-05-19, 10:01:

I’m not asking you to push for 50 pre-orders as of now.

I'll ask. Send Volo an email!

Volo wrote on 2020-05-10, 22:21:

Also: need to implement 3-button Sega controller support. Now it understands only 6-button pads. I can't find the criterion used to differ those - real Sega Genesis does it somehow, though.

There is a bunch of different DE-9 devices that you can auto detect. This page contains some examples with how to detect them:
https://www.msx.org/wiki/MSX-HID

_Rob wrote on 2020-05-19, 11:10:

Volo wrote on 2020-05-10, 22:21:

Also: need to implement 3-button Sega controller support. Now it understands only 6-button pads. I can't find the criterion used to differ those - real Sega Genesis does it somehow, though.

There is a bunch of different DE-9 devices that you can auto detect. This page contains some examples with how to detect them:
https://www.msx.org/wiki/MSX-HID

Solved pretty quick, see my post Re: Volo's Gampad to PS/2 Adapter. Device discussion (Do you need this thing?)
I believe that Sega, and Atari joysticks are only non-analog devices you can connect to the thing.

Ran into some issues I need to be advised:
1. Do you want Atari/Commodore buttons 1 & 2 to be equal to SEGA Gamepad A & B, or B & C?
2. Can't change presets with Atari joystick or Sega 3-button controller (can't press START+MODE without having the MODE button). I am thinking of ditching this capability for Atari joysticks. Sega 3-button shall most probably be START+UP+A/B/C (with only 3 presets available). Thinking about it.

You could put some buttons on the device itself.

Regarding that case from the advert: Where did you find it? It looked quite polished for such a prototype project 😀
And what about multiplayer gaming where at least two players could use the same controller? Is that possible?

Tiido wrote on 2020-05-19, 12:58:

You could put some buttons on the device itself.

Tiido, thanks for your input. You really helped with Sega gamepad detection!
I think adding buttons to the device would be cheating. The idea is for device to be so seamless - you should be able to forget it's even there!
I could sniff keyboard keys, but it's an awful can of worms. I'd prefer not to.

P.S. I haven't played Pier Solar yet, but it's on my wish list. Where may I look into more of your Sega projects?

villeneuve wrote on 2020-05-19, 17:36:

Regarding that case from the advert: Where did you find it? It looked quite polished for such a prototype project 😀
And what about multiplayer gaming where at least two players could use the same controller? Is that possible?

I found the case in the shop. It's a card-reader housing or something (feel free to see the specs attached). Needed some careful drilling and dremeling to fit the components.
I am designing my production PCB to fit inside the same case (it's dirt cheap and surprisingly pleasant to handle). There are services of "finalizing" cases using CNC milling machines. Hope it shall be better than my handywork and won't blow the budget. In any case, the smaller the case, the more economic it shall be, even if custom built.

Two player gaming has never been an option for me: I have pimped out PS2, Wii (with balance board, two remotes, nunchucks and GC controllers), VA2 Sega Genesis and even two-joysticks for my Amiga 500! Not once, ONCE have I managed to persuade someone to play with me.
So ideology behind the device is more of a choice for single-player gaming than "mythical" two-player option. You still may play SEGA vs Nintendo vs Keyboard, if you motherboard does not beep at buttonmashing mayhem.
If all plays out, perhaps such "same-gamepad" device might become an option. Would not count on it, though.

Today I've designed this thing:

Hopefully it shall fit like this:

Error-checker seems to think that the scheme is fine. I feel tired and sleepy

Please tell me if you see anything wrong.
Thanks!

Volo wrote on 2020-05-19, 19:14:

Tiido, thanks for your input. You really helped with Sega gamepad detection! I think adding buttons to the device would be cheat […]
Show full quote

Tiido, thanks for your input. You really helped with Sega gamepad detection!
I think adding buttons to the device would be cheating. The idea is for device to be so seamless - you should be able to forget it's even there!
I could sniff keyboard keys, but it's an awful can of worms. I'd prefer not to.

P.S. I haven't played Pier Solar yet, but it's on my wish list. Where may I look into more of your Sega projects?

I certainly wouldn't mind a button or two on the device, if for anything than to perform a reset or something and perhaps to avoid button combinations meant for invoking device functions getting triggered ingame on a controller with minimal amount of buttons available...

Pier Solar isn't "my" project, I was just part of it and povided sound stuff and one music track. All my MD and SMS things are scattered on SMSpower!, Spritesmind and Sega-16 forums, there's no repository of anything though one is in Todo list but I really hate web stuff so that's gonna take more years before I start 🤣.

The board is shaping up nicely ~
EDIT: I only see one PS/2 connector, how is keyboard passthrough going to work ? Y-cable is one possible way to get two connectors on single port.

Tiido wrote on 2020-05-20, 15:23:

I certainly wouldn't mind a button or two on the device, if for anything than to perform a reset or something and perhaps to avo […]
Show full quote

Volo wrote on 2020-05-19, 19:14:

Tiido, thanks for your input. You really helped with Sega gamepad detection! I think adding buttons to the device would be cheat […]
Show full quote

Tiido, thanks for your input. You really helped with Sega gamepad detection!
I think adding buttons to the device would be cheating. The idea is for device to be so seamless - you should be able to forget it's even there!
I could sniff keyboard keys, but it's an awful can of worms. I'd prefer not to.

P.S. I haven't played Pier Solar yet, but it's on my wish list. Where may I look into more of your Sega projects?

I certainly wouldn't mind a button or two on the device, if for anything than to perform a reset or something and perhaps to avoid button combinations meant for invoking device functions getting triggered ingame on a controller with minimal amount of buttons available...

Pier Solar isn't "my" project, I was just part of it and povided sound stuff and one music track. All my MD and SMS things are scattered on SMSpower!, Spritesmind and Sega-16 forums, there's no repository of anything though one is in Todo list but I really hate web stuff so that's gonna take more years before I start 🤣.

The board is shaping up nicely ~
EDIT: I only see one PS/2 connector, how is keyboard passthrough going to work ? Y-cable is one possible way to get two connectors on single port.

If this thing needs a reset button - it means I've done my job badly. Normal keyboard doesn't have a reset button, does it? In any case, if my device crashes - it takes the host PC with it 😎 Not that it does it now, but it has done it A LOT during development.

To reset assigned keys, you press START+MODE+ANY DPAD DIRECTION. Since I insist that START should act as ESC on the keyboard, and START is the part of all service key combos - you don't have a chance to accidentally press a key combo during gameplay - you don't usually hold ESC while mashing other buttons.

Regarding connectors: J1 (temporary designation) is PS/2 female connector, used to connect hardware keyboard.
For HOST connection I looked for PCB-mounted Mini-DIN 6 Male jack, to be used with off-the-shelf PS/2 extenders. But there is no such thing as PCB-mounted Mini-DIN 6 Male.
So I went DIY way, and crammed 4c4p RJ11 connector into it (J4). These connectors are easily available (standard landline phone jacks), there is little risk connecting something inappropriate there and wires may be easily produced by hacking cheap PS/2 extenders and crimping RJ11 connectors on exposed wires.

I suppose. This only matters for the low button count controllers and would improve their usability though I think there isn't a huge amount of need to support them. I do expect arbitary assignments being possible for the buttons on the controller, making and choosing profile for each particular game within the available profiles, perhaps LEDs to show what is being chosen.

That's a pretty good solution to the male plug problem. I would also run the clock and data to the unused pins on the mini DIN so that an off the shelf Y cable can be used with a plug to socket swap. Probably a bit more work than crimping a RJ11 but it would be a pretty neat looking option in addition and shouldn't take much extra effort to do on the board.

digger wrote on 2020-05-12, 19:07:

Should you be considering an improved future version, may I suggest the possibility to hook the adapter up to both the PS/2 port and the DA-15 game port on the PC side? The idea behind that is the possibility to also support newer game controllers with analog thumb sticks, such as the PS1 and PS2 controllers. And in addition to that perhaps also a serial port connector, since that's how some force feedback implementations on the PC worked. Then it could be made to work with Dual Shock controllers as well.

Yeah, about my earlier analog thumb stick suggestion, it turns out that PS1 and PS2 controllers digitize the analog values internally and then send them to the console in digital form. So much for that idea. 😟

It's a shame, since using a controller with thumbsticks (or even just one thumbstick) on a DOS game that requires an analog joystick, such as X-Wing or Wing Commander, would be so much more comfortable! I don't know of any comfortable game controllers (as in game pads) with an analog 15-pin PC game interface as well as an analog thumbstick, let alone ones that also have a good D-pad in addition to that. If anyone knows of any good controllers that tick all of those boxes, please let me know!

The force feedback over serial port thing could still work, though. If I interpreted the pinouts correctly, the rumble on those Sony controllers can apparently simply be triggered by sending a certain voltage over a specific pin.

Anyway, perhaps nice for a future variant.

Great work on this Sega controller solution! 🙂