In my experience, under WIndows XP the RTSS application appears to run happily but the Scanline Sync function has no effect. When I turn on Scanline Sync with VSYNC OFF, the framerate is unlimited far above my CRT's refresh rate. The Frame Limit feature worked fine.

In order for me to use Scanline Sync, I had to use a newer version of Windows. Since Scanline Sync is usually superior to merely limiting framerate, I ended up running Windows 10 (or even Win11) for games that function in Windows 10 (for example, the GOG version of many old games actually works fine in Win 10/11).

Thank you bZbZbZ, after more testing I'm reaching the same conclusions. I dual booted to Windows 7 on my build and yes, just setting "-30" on Scanline Sync made the game magically limit itself to the current monitor refresh rate and no tearline was to be seen. That never happened on XP on my testing. I was fooled because on XP with RTSS, just limiting refresh rate makes almost the same effect, but there's a stable tearline (double in fact) that slowly moves down across screen, let's say it wraps up again each minute, so if you don't notice it has the same effect than Scanline Sync. I was getting crazy understanding why sometimes it worked sometimes it didn't.

Ok that makes things clear in that regard, anyway on XP I was very satisfied with enabling vsync globally from Catalyst Control Center (CCC), lag is nonexistent and sync is stable, except in some cases like Quake 3 and Need for Speed Underground 2. And I've discovered that the former is due to the 77FPS problem (in fact just enabling vsync made periodic micro-stuttering and an appreciable input lag, limiting to 75 fixes both), and the later is due to an inefficient vsync ingame method. On my build, I run the game at 1600x1200@75Hz and I test performance doing 360s with the car over and over to generate smoke, that chokes the GPU easily:
- With vsync both disabled on CCC and in-game, FPS are usually avobe 100 but briefly drop under 80s from time to time.
- Enabling vsync on in-game settings, disabled on CCC, makes FPS drop to 37 for several seconds, time after time, as it cannot run above 75FPS and drops to half refresh rate.
- Enabling vsync on CCC, disabled in-game, game stutters very rarely, and only for one frame, I bet also when FPS really drop under 75, so it's better handling those short slowdowns.
So for now a combination of vsync in drivers (CCC) and frame limiting for special cases seems to get me lag free rock solid vsync no different from Scanline Sync. I'll continue testing to see if that's really the case.

I really like this build, so much so Im going to give this a shot myself.

Got a few parts here that I can throw at it

-17" LG Flatron F700B (Great Monitor, similar to a Trinitron, has amazing picture quality for its age)

-A rather nice single slot SFF 750Ti 4Gb, it also comes with the VGA breakout but this makes it a dual slot.

-Kinda need a decent sound card cause on board audio is pretty bad in these SFF machines, so I'm throwing a SFF ASUS Xonar DX/XD/A 7.1 card at it, its a great sound card.

Which just leaves the SFF PC which I dont own but Evilbay does have a ton of them at some really nice prices, I found the 7010 and 9010 both of which are still 120ish dollars here for the basement versions and slightly more for the better ones but a Seller I have bought from before had a tiny Dell Vostro 260s which has a i7 2600, 4Gb DDR3 in it with *4 expansion slots and a 480Gb SSD for a grand total of 50 dollars .. pretty much a perfect little SFF machine for this with plenty of spare grunt and good expansion options.

Comes with XP Professional installed so itll just be a matter of throwing the parts at it and installing ...I do love to tinker with software 😁

Now I just need to be on the look out for a older SFF GPU because I feel that like yourself the 750Ti will have issues with older stuff, I might dig through my collection I think I have a Low Profile HD2400 Pro in there that may work ok for older stuff. "Not great, Not Terrible" as someone once famously said.

Going to use your thread here to help me out, some really great tips to use !

* 1 16xPCIe, 3 1xPCIe

Hey, thank you, that's looking cool! Also the idea of a SFF dedicated sound card should be an improvement.

mgtroyas wrote on 2025-01-25, 19:23:

Also the idea of a SFF dedicated sound card should be an improvement.

I think that some X-Fi SB0730 cards come with a low profile bracket.

That model is called "XtremeGamer" and it should be pretty decent for WinXP and Win7 gaming. As far as I can tell, it's basically a shrunken down SB0460.

Thank you, yes I know there were some X-FIs on SFF format but unfortunately all I've seen for now are PCI and my Optiplex SFF doesn't have PCI ports, only PCIe. And anybody knows about "Auzen X-Fi Forte 7.1"? Seems to be both PCIe and low profile.

... I recently discovered there's a slightly bigger form factor over my SFF called DT (Desktop) that's basically the same but a bit wider and has indeed a PCI slot, so now that I think about it it's tempting ... also probably useful if I tried to run Windows 98 natively on this build just for fun ... how much can one stretch these boring office computers?

On the other hand I've used DSOAL-XP on all the games that support EAX and surprisingly it has been problematic only in one or two, and as far as I tested with simple stereo speakers I noticed the effects.

mgtroyas wrote on 2025-01-25, 20:42:

Thank you, yes I know there were some X-FIs on SFF format but unfortunately all I've seen for now are PCI and my Optiplex SFF doesn't have PCI ports, only PCIe. And anybody knows about "Auzen X-Fi Forte 7.1"? Seems to be both PCIe and low profile.

... I recently discovered there's a slightly bigger form factor over my SFF called DT (Desktop) that's basically the same but a bit wider and has indeed a PCI slot, so now that I think about it it's tempting ... also probably useful if I tried to run Windows 98 natively on this build just for fun ... how much can one stretch these boring office computers?

On the other hand I've used DSOAL-XP on all the games that support EAX and surprisingly it has been problematic only in one or two, and as far as I tested with simple stereo speakers I noticed the effects.

If the Xi Fi emulation works for the games you use it on then I guess you would have to weigh up if its worth essentially starting over just to get PCI.

I was thinking that perhaps one of the CMI8738 PCIe based SFF cards might work, it seems to support EAX, A3D and Directsound3D and has XP drivers, no idea how good teh EAX and A3D is on these chips but Im gonna grab one and try it out . .they are pretty cheap.

Trashbytes wrote on 2025-01-26, 00:32:

no idea how good teh EAX and A3D is on these chips

No better than your onboard audio with Realtek codec.

Trashbytes wrote on 2025-01-26, 00:32:

If the Xi Fi emulation works for the games you use it on then I guess you would have to weigh up if its worth essentially starting over just to get PCI.

Hehe, yes it's only for experimenting. Anyway it'd be like a brain transplant, I'd just need to get the case and motherboard on DT factor, transplant all the other hardware (disks, memory, CPU, graphics card, etc), and as the motherboard is almost identical it'd probably boot without knowing there was any change.

Trashbytes wrote on 2025-01-26, 00:32:

I was thinking that perhaps one of the CMI8738 PCIe based SFF cards might work, it seems to support EAX, A3D and Directsound3D and has XP drivers, no idea how good teh EAX and A3D is on these chips but Im gonna grab one and try it out . .they are pretty cheap.

That's very interesting, I had seen that card on Phil's channel on PCI version targeting Windows 98, but I had no idea it had a PCIe version targeted to XP. It'd probably even bring native Windows 98 with sound to the equation.

My Optiplex SFF doesn't have a small 1x PCIe connector, as this card needs it. But it's funny the Optiplex Desktop (DT) form factor has indeed one of these, with the PCI slot are the two main diferences from SFF model.

mgtroyas wrote on 2025-01-26, 16:50:

Hehe, yes it's only for experimenting. Anyway it'd be like a brain transplant, I'd just need to get the case and motherboard on […]
Show full quote

Trashbytes wrote on 2025-01-26, 00:32:

If the Xi Fi emulation works for the games you use it on then I guess you would have to weigh up if its worth essentially starting over just to get PCI.

Hehe, yes it's only for experimenting. Anyway it'd be like a brain transplant, I'd just need to get the case and motherboard on DT factor, transplant all the other hardware (disks, memory, CPU, graphics card, etc), and as the motherboard is almost identical it'd probably boot without knowing there was any change.

Trashbytes wrote on 2025-01-26, 00:32:

I was thinking that perhaps one of the CMI8738 PCIe based SFF cards might work, it seems to support EAX, A3D and Directsound3D and has XP drivers, no idea how good teh EAX and A3D is on these chips but Im gonna grab one and try it out . .they are pretty cheap.

That's very interesting, I had seen that card on Phil's channel on PCI version targeting Windows 98, but I had no idea it had a PCIe version targeted to XP. It'd probably even bring native Windows 98 with sound to the equation.

My Optiplex SFF doesn't have a small 1x PCIe connector, as this card needs it. But it's funny the Optiplex Desktop (DT) form factor has indeed one of these, with the PCI slot are the two main diferences from SFF model.

Yours is a 7010 SFF right, the few I have seen have 1 PCIe 1x slot along with a PCIe 16x slot or do you have the even smaller model ? as there are three IIRC the USFF, SFF and DT.

Yes it's a SFF, bigger than USFF and smaller than DT and MT. This model has two full size PCIe slots, one acts as 16x and the other 4x (interchangeable).

And I just learned that you can connect a 1x small connector card on a long slot without problem, so in theory I can just use this on the currently free slot. I've in fact ordered that sound card to China with low profile bracket, let's see how it goes.

mgtroyas wrote on 2025-01-27, 08:13:

Yes it's a SFF, bigger than USFF and smaller than DT and MT. This model has two full size PCIe slots, one acts as 16x and the other 4x (interchangeable).

And I just learned that you can connect a 1x small connector card on a long slot without problem, so in theory I can just use this on the currently free slot. I've in fact ordered that sound card to China with low profile bracket, let's see how it goes.

/fingers crossed

Cause having EAX in hardware would be sweet and A3D the cream on top !

You are fooling yourself if you think you get eax and especially a3d (ha!) in hardware this way.

Sensaura and other 3d implementations stopped being relevant with regards to resource consumption around 2002. The rest is just delusions and self persuasion.

Bruno128 wrote on 2025-01-27, 08:56:

You are fooling yourself if you think you get eax and especially a3d (ha!) in hardware this way.

Sensaura and other 3d implementations stopped being relevant with regards to resource consumption around 2002.

While I can't speak for its implementation on the aforementioned CMI card, I was very impressed with what Sensaura could do on my Yamaha YMF724 in terms of A3D 1.0. Positional audio worked great, especially when using headphones, though there were some minor issues with sound clarity. A3D 1.0 was properly detected in supported titles like Thief: The Dark Project and Unreal Tournament. I don't think A3D 2.0 is supported directly by Sensaura, at least not on my sound card.

The EAX 1.0 emulation was kinda crappy though. I think newer Sensaura capable sound cards should be able to emulate EAX 2.0 as well, but I never tried one of those myself. Even so, EAX 2.0 was surpassed by later, more advanced versions during the early 2000s. Many popular games from that time support EAX 3.0 and above.

Bruno128 wrote on 2025-01-27, 08:56:

You are fooling yourself if you think you get eax and especially a3d (ha!) in hardware this way.

Sensaura and other 3d implementations stopped being relevant with regards to resource consumption around 2002. The rest is just delusions and self persuasion.

Even EAX 1/2 and A3D 1 is better than shitty on board Audio AC97, besides EAX 3 can be emulated in software as required should the soundcard not be capable of it, in SFF for XP Ill take what I can get and figure the rest out later. SFF means concessions must be made and it wont ever be quite as good as dektop would be, would have been nice if X-Fi Titanium had a SFF version but it doesn't and Audigy FX cards dont have earlier EAX versions and sound like ASS. (FX isn't supported by DanielK driver either so its a nogo for XP)

Seems people are working on getting A3D 2.0 emulation working, might take them a while but seems it may be possible much like EAX can be emulated, no idea how good it'll sound but again its got to be better than AC97. IIRC PCEM can do A3D in a round about way so that's another route to getting it.

Also pays to remember this setup is just for XP, so there may be other workarounds using Directsound3D wrappers, Ive seen mention of a few that can take EAX calls and port them to DS3D.

Trashbytes wrote on 2025-01-27, 09:42:

Even EAX 1/2 and A3D 1 is better than shitty on board Audio AC97, besides EAX 3 can be emulated in software as required should the soundcard not be capable of it

This is one big fallacy you don’t understand what is a subset of what.

Bruno128 wrote on 2025-01-27, 10:02:

Trashbytes wrote on 2025-01-27, 09:42:

Even EAX 1/2 and A3D 1 is better than shitty on board Audio AC97, besides EAX 3 can be emulated in software as required should the soundcard not be capable of it

This is one big fallacy you don’t understand what is a subset of what.

sigh

I know, been using Creative and Aureal sound cards since the 90s, I'm well aware what is a subset of what card, I'm also aware that Creative didn't make any EAX capable SFF PCIe cards and Aureal went out of business shortly after XP was released so they never made any SFF PCIe cards either and never got XP drivers working.

The CMI8738 based card is SFF PCIe based and seemingly is capable of A3D 1, EAX and Directsound3D which is considerably more than what AC97 is capable of.

If need be EAX 1,2,3 and 4 can be mostly emulated via DSOL and OpenAL but that's a last measure as hardware support would be better.

A3D 2.0 is the only one that cant be emulated currently but is seemingly being worked on as the dev kit is available for it.

I dont need you to lecture me on what is what, in fact I'm not even sure what you are trying to argue here ... your post is confusing and reads like you haven't read the rest of the thread.

Bruno128 wrote on 2025-01-26, 15:55:

Trashbytes wrote on 2025-01-26, 00:32:

no idea how good teh EAX and A3D is on these chips

No better than your onboard audio with Realtek codec.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around how all of this, as back in the day I didn't have any EAX capable sound card nor a surround speaker setup. Firstly, I understand EAX sound processing and virtual surround on stereo are two independent things, so:

• EAX: with the Realtek I understand the games are requesting EAX effects to the sound driver, then DSOAL stands in the middle providing that sound processing on software, translating/mapping them to OpenAL effects. I assume back in the day Creative EAX capable cards implemented these effects on hardware. So once I install the CMI8738 based sound card on my system and it's official drivers (which I suppose have some level of EAX implementation on hardware/software?), will I get system wide EAX support without the need of DSOAL, or nothing will change?
• Virtual surround: I think this was what CMSS-3D did on Creative cards, and DSOAL does using OpenAL. Can I expect this functionality from the C-Media CMI8738 drivers or I'd need to still use DSOAL or similar to get this? Any advantage using the C-Media?

mgtroyas wrote on 2025-01-27, 11:00:

So once I install the CMI8738 based sound card on my system and it's official drivers (which I suppose have some level of EAX implementation on hardware/software?), will I get system wide EAX support without the need of DSOAL, or nothing will change?

You would get system wide support for whatever EAX versions the CMI8738 supports. I have no experience with that particular card, but that would likely be EAX 1.0 and EAX 2.0. You can test this by using the Rightmark 3D Sound utility.

Creative didn't license EAX 3.0 and above to other companies.

Trashbytes wrote on 2025-01-27, 10:35:

what you are trying to argue here

That if your starting point is emulating eax and whatnot you may as well go with modern hardware it won’t matter. There is Alchemy and dsoal and whatnot. It’s not like you can trick the system by buying 8738 (literally the cheapest option) and claim “hardware a3d” it doesn’t work like that, you do have to pay insane eBay prices for vortex 2 for it to count as hardware a3d. If it doesn’t fit sff case well tough luck.