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CRT questions

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First post, by silikone

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I have what I believe is an aperture grille CRT monitor. The model name is Dell P793. While I have been messing around with different applications and hardware, I experienced multiple oddities that I didn't quite expect.

In VGA mode 0x13 (320x200), the info menu of the monitor prints 720x400@69Hz. The vertical resolution happens to be a multiple of the actual resolution, but the horizontal resolution is 80 lines off. The refresh rate frequency is also off by one. Is this normal?

With small display modes like these, horizontal scan lines are very obvious. It's not a pretty sight when I am close up. Are all aperture grille monitors like this?

Last but not least, these lines are visible at black levels. Even some parts outside of the displayed image, these gray lines are visible when the monitor is turned on. Aren't CRTs supposed to have perfect black levels?

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Reply 1 of 20, by Gemini000

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Whether it's an aperture grille CRT or not makes no difference. Most modern CRT monitors do not physically support low resolution modes, so to compensate, they run a higher resolution, typically 720x400 or 640x480, and just double the number of pixels horizontally or vertically as necessary. This tends to create dark, horizontal lines through the displayed image. (AFAIK: Vertical with an aperture grille, not 100% certain though.)

However, if these lines are showing up even when the screen is supposed to be completely black, you probably have your contrast or brightness settings too high. :P

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Reply 2 of 20, by jwt27

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IMO anything above 15" sucks at resolutions below 800x600. Especially aperture-grille screens. My solution: get a smaller screen.

Here's a comparison between a 14" and 17" montior, both shadow-mask screens:

princecrt.gif

And yes, CRTs usually have perfect black levels. Unless you haven't set up the brightness and contrast correctly. The best way to do this is to set the contrast and brightness both at 100%. Then turn down the brightness until black is really black. Contrast can usually be left at 100.

Reply 3 of 20, by silikone

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I can't tell which one is which. One looks sharp, which I like, but it also introduces pesky lines.

Do not refrain from refusing to stop hindering yourself from the opposite of watching nothing other than that which is by no means porn.

Reply 5 of 20, by leileilol

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Gemini000 wrote:

Whether it's an aperture grille CRT or not makes no difference. Most modern CRT monitors do not physically support low resolution modes, so to compensate, they run a higher resolution, typically 720x400 or 640x480, and just double the number of pixels horizontally or vertically as necessary. This tends to create dark, horizontal lines through the displayed image. (AFAIK: Vertical with an aperture grille, not 100% certain though.)

Didn't this double-scan behavior start with VGA? This behavior isn't restricted to "modern" CRTs. You get these same lines in 640x400 too, infact it's the lines and comfortable 70hz that made me prefer 400 over 480 where available, and also alleviating some stretch artifacts in some games

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Reply 6 of 20, by 5u3

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leileilol wrote:

Didn't this double-scan behavior start with VGA? This behavior isn't restricted to "modern" CRTs.

Yes, the VGA scans each line twice in 2xx-line modes. AFAIK the lowest common resolution that gets displayed without scandoubling is the hi-res EGA mode (350 lines).

Reply 7 of 20, by kool kitty89

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leileilol wrote:
Gemini000 wrote:

Whether it's an aperture grille CRT or not makes no difference. Most modern CRT monitors do not physically support low resolution modes, so to compensate, they run a higher resolution, typically 720x400 or 640x480, and just double the number of pixels horizontally or vertically as necessary. This tends to create dark, horizontal lines through the displayed image. (AFAIK: Vertical with an aperture grille, not 100% certain though.)

Didn't this double-scan behavior start with VGA? This behavior isn't restricted to "modern" CRTs. You get these same lines in 640x400 too, infact it's the lines and comfortable 70hz that made me prefer 400 over 480 where available, and also alleviating some stretch artifacts in some games

Unless a CRT is actually digitally altering the signal before display (like most CRT HDTVs but not most CRT VGA monitors AFIK), there won't be any scaling going on as such.

Additionally, analog monitors support an infinite/indefinite number of possible horizontal resolutions, any analog monitor can display any number of horizontal pixels, it's just a matter of the dot clock used by the video source (ie even an old SDTV could produce 1280x480i/240p), though whether those pixels would be distinctly visible is another matter. (beam width, precision, and phosphor dot pitch are all practical limiting factors on all monitors -and the main reasons why some monitors display "sharper" than others)

Then there's also the issue of sync rates, and this is a real limit on analog monitors that will affect aspect ratio of the image and (more importantly) whether certain resolutions are supported at all (in terms of refresh rate and vertical resolution -number of scan lines). Horizontal sync rates define and limit the vertical resolution while vertical sync is the screen refresh
rate. (multi-sync monitors will still be limited by the specific sync-rates supported)

Additional information on the resolutions being used can also be sent to the monitors digitally via the VGA connector (if monitor and video card/vdriver support it), and this can provide automatic overscan and aspect ratio adjusment. (different resolutions may use different portions of the scan area) Though many monitors (or video hardware) still require manual scan adjustment.

Largely separate from these issues is the beam pitch itself (apart from the upper resolution limit mentioned above), and this is the cause for "black lines" or gaps between scanlines seen at low resolutions (many monitors show this even at 400 or 480 lines, and STVS almost always show this quite visibly when displaying non-interlaced images -ie 240p, common to older video game consoles and home computers). Unless a monitor has variable beam pitch, there's generally no practical way to avoid this problem in the analog domain. (digitally, line doubling could be used via a line RAM buffer, though this is much more commonly done on the video card end -short of more complex upscaling)

If the video card (or monitor) doesn't line double the image and the monitor doesn't support wider beam pitches, you will see noticeable black lines at low vertical resolutions. (OTOH, if fixed at wide beam pitch, high resolutions will appear blurrier)
This isn't a problem with supporting a specific resolution or sync rate, but the way the electron gun and screen are implemented. (a monitor explicitly supporting 320x200 in 15 kHz sync rate -like CGA, TVs, Amiga monitors, etc- would look identical to a 31 kHz VGA display if both used similar beam pitch and calibration -albeit, 15 kHz monitors are almost always specialized towards lower-res displays and thus tend to have broader beams by nature)

Another issue is with refresh rate of vertical sync: monitors often use low persistence phosphor to allow effective use of high refresh rates (high persistence screens will show motion blur), but conversely, the lower the persistence, the worse the flicker at lower refresh rates (or using interlaced modes for that matter -hence why most CRT TVs use high persistence phosphor). This has no impact on sharpness of the display, just flicker and clarity of motion/animation on-screen. (the old IBM Monochrome monitors are an extreme example of high-persistence phosphor -well beyond that of standard TVs . . . and rather odd given the high refresh rates used for MDA)

Reply 8 of 20, by silikone

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kool kitty89 wrote:

If the video card (or monitor) doesn't line double the image and the monitor doesn't support wider beam pitches, you will see noticeable black lines at low vertical resolutions. (OTOH, if fixed at wide beam pitch, high resolutions will appear blurrier)
This isn't a problem with supporting a specific resolution or sync rate, but the way the electron gun and screen are implemented. (a monitor explicitly supporting 320x200 in 15 kHz sync rate -like CGA, TVs, Amiga monitors, etc- would look identical to a 31 kHz VGA display if both used similar beam pitch and calibration -albeit, 15 kHz monitors are almost always specialized towards lower-res displays and thus tend to have broader beams by nature)

So the best solution is to use an old monitor designed for VGA? I suppose this makes sense, but it would sacrifice the advantages of the size, color space, and flatness seen in modern CRTs. Are there any monitors that fit in between and offer the "best" of both worlds?

Do not refrain from refusing to stop hindering yourself from the opposite of watching nothing other than that which is by no means porn.

Reply 9 of 20, by bushwack

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jwt27 wrote:

IMO anything above 15" sucks at resolutions below 800x600. Especially aperture-grille screens. My solution: get a smaller screen.

Here's a comparison between a 14" and 17" montior, both shadow-mask screens:.

If you have a bigger monitor with a higher dot pitch, you could always shrink the screen size until your happy with the image quality. 🤣

Reply 10 of 20, by badmojo

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bushwack wrote:

If you have a bigger monitor with a higher dot pitch, you could always shrink the screen size until your happy with the image quality. 🤣

Laugh all you want but this is what I do and it works really well, I think! I have a 17" ViewSonic set to display 320X200 at a 14" monitor's view size, and higher resolutions at full screen, so it's the best of both worlds.

Second hand CRT's are still readily available around here but is anyone else worried about then disappearing one day? I've squirreled away a new-in-box 15" Dell for just that eventuality, so hopefully I can live out my days without suffering the horror of DOS on a flat screen.

Reply 11 of 20, by Gemini000

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badmofo wrote:

Laugh all you want but this is what I do and it works really well, I think! I have a 17" ViewSonic set to display 320X200 at a 14" monitor's view size, and higher resolutions at full screen, so it's the best of both worlds.

Four or five years from now I'll be laughing when one day, while running a 640x480 game, you notice that the area around the edges of the screen, 1 1/2" wide on the diagonal, is brighter than the middle. :P

Good way to manage those phosphors! ;D

--- Kris Asick (Gemini)
--- Pixelmusement Website: www.pixelships.com
--- Ancient DOS Games Webshow: www.pixelships.com/adg

Reply 12 of 20, by jwt27

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Shrinking the screen size is not a bad idea at all! I have to try that with the 17" monitor I mentioned in my first post.

But as Gemini said, if you often play games on low screen resolutions you might see the center area diminishing more quickly. But then on my current monitor I have had a bright taskbar visible on screen for at least 5 years, 12 hours a day and it still hasn't burned in.

I can see some other problems with this as well. Some monitors might not allow shrinking the screen size enough to eliminate the lines completely, and some might not remember the dimension settings for individual resolutions, for example.

Reply 13 of 20, by kool kitty89

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silikone wrote:
kool kitty89 wrote:

If the video card (or monitor) doesn't line double the image and the monitor doesn't support wider beam pitches, you will see noticeable black lines at low vertical resolutions. (OTOH, if fixed at wide beam pitch, high resolutions will appear blurrier)
This isn't a problem with supporting a specific resolution or sync rate, but the way the electron gun and screen are implemented. (a monitor explicitly supporting 320x200 in 15 kHz sync rate -like CGA, TVs, Amiga monitors, etc- would look identical to a 31 kHz VGA display if both used similar beam pitch and calibration -albeit, 15 kHz monitors are almost always specialized towards lower-res displays and thus tend to have broader beams by nature)

So the best solution is to use an old monitor designed for VGA? I suppose this makes sense, but it would sacrifice the advantages of the size, color space, and flatness seen in modern CRTs. Are there any monitors that fit in between and offer the "best" of both worlds?

Not necessarily, since many old VGA monitors may still have similar problems (even those specifically intended for the 1987/88 VGA resolution spec would have to cater to 480/400 line modes, so you'd quite possibly have visible black gaps in 200/240 line modes there too).

I don't think any VGA monitors will work without any gaps at all, though some might be less noticeable than others (quite possibly cheaper/blurrier monitors with poor beam precision may show smaller gaps). Few to no 30+ kHz monitors (and even most 15 kHz) specifically cater to 200/240 line displays, so that's always going to be a problem.

The only way to totally avoid this problem would be to scale/line double the video (usually handled by the video card) to run the monitor at a higher resolution where the beam scans very close to adjacent lines. (or use a monitor with built-in scaling, but that's generally a worse option)

AFIK, those black lines are part of the normal way VGA monitors display low resolutions, and there's no real way around it if you want an "authentic" set-up. (just as with authentic retro computer/game console set-ups using SDTVs at 240p)

Adjusting the scan can help too though (making the screen smaller on the monitor end) since you're forcing the scan lines closer together (relative to the design calibration). It's the same case as having inherently coarser beams used (more overlap when scanning), just adjusted for the smaller/tighter beam used.

Reply 14 of 20, by Chaniyth

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jwt27 wrote:
IMO anything above 15" sucks at resolutions below 800x600. Especially aperture-grille screens. My solution: get a smaller screen […]
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IMO anything above 15" sucks at resolutions below 800x600. Especially aperture-grille screens. My solution: get a smaller screen.

Here's a comparison between a 14" and 17" montior, both shadow-mask screens:

princecrt.gif

And yes, CRTs usually have perfect black levels. Unless you haven't set up the brightness and contrast correctly. The best way to do this is to set the contrast and brightness both at 100%. Then turn down the brightness until black is really black. Contrast can usually be left at 100.

I know I dug up this old thread, sorry, but I wanna know jwt27 what brand/model of CRT monitor is used for the first frame set used in the image? The flames look correctly dithered together, etc which is exactly what i'm looking for, for DOS games, where as the second frames it looks blocky and non-dithered like it does with most newer Aperture Grille and newer Shadow Mask CRT's. Thanks. 😎

All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies, and when they catch you, they will kill you... but first they must catch you. 😁

Reply 15 of 20, by jwt27

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That's a Hewlett Packard D2802A, 14 inch with 0.39mm horizontal dot pitch. I believe it's actually a rebranded Samsung/Samtron and may have been sold under the Compaq brand too.

Got more pics of it! 🤣
http://i.imgur.com/fKUNGNK.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/N1CdJgf.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/UB9sn6S.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/rdGqmJJ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/kCocOdN.jpg

Reply 16 of 20, by King_Corduroy

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See, that's the problem with modern "retro" games. They look all pixelated but that's not really how the games used to look on the correct CRT screens.

Check me out at Transcendental Airwaves on Youtube! Fast-food sucks!

Reply 17 of 20, by Chaniyth

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jwt27 wrote:
That's a Hewlett Packard D2802A, 14 inch with 0.39mm horizontal dot pitch. I believe it's actually a rebranded Samsung/Samtron a […]
Show full quote

That's a Hewlett Packard D2802A, 14 inch with 0.39mm horizontal dot pitch. I believe it's actually a rebranded Samsung/Samtron and may have been sold under the Compaq brand too.

Got more pics of it! 🤣
http://i.imgur.com/fKUNGNK.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/N1CdJgf.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/UB9sn6S.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/rdGqmJJ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/kCocOdN.jpg

jwt27 Awesome! Thanks so much for the info, that type of monitor is definitely what i've been looking for my DOS gaming sessions for my DOS pc. 😎

Looks like i'll have to search one out. 😀

All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies, and when they catch you, they will kill you... but first they must catch you. 😁

Reply 18 of 20, by Chaniyth

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King_Corduroy wrote:

See, that's the problem with modern "retro" games. They look all pixelated but that's not really how the games used to look on the correct CRT screens.

Agreed, they look pixelated on the the wrong type of CRT monitor too. Guess you need a rather highish number dot pitch monitor to get the correct dithered look.

All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies, and when they catch you, they will kill you... but first they must catch you. 😁

Reply 19 of 20, by jwt27

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Chaniyth wrote:
jwt27 wrote:
That's a Hewlett Packard D2802A, 14 inch with 0.39mm horizontal dot pitch. I believe it's actually a rebranded Samsung/Samtron a […]
Show full quote

That's a Hewlett Packard D2802A, 14 inch with 0.39mm horizontal dot pitch. I believe it's actually a rebranded Samsung/Samtron and may have been sold under the Compaq brand too.

Got more pics of it! 🤣
http://i.imgur.com/fKUNGNK.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/N1CdJgf.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/UB9sn6S.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/rdGqmJJ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/kCocOdN.jpg

jwt27 Awesome! Thanks so much for the info, that type of monitor is definitely what i've been looking for my DOS gaming sessions for my DOS pc. 😎

Looks like i'll have to search one out. 😀

Good luck! These small screens with enormous dot pitch seem to be very rare nowadays.

Just found the original Samsung model number too: SC-439VG. There's some solid logic behind this numbering scheme:
SC-439VG = 14 inch
SC-439VG = 0.39mm dot pitch
SC-439VG = VGA