brandon9271 wrote on 2022-12-02, 21:13:

Shreddoc wrote on 2022-12-02, 21:04:

On a different track. It surprises me that there doesn't yet exist a Pi-based simple VST host, designed as a barebones system to run [e.g. a Sound Canvas and/or YamahaXG VST].

That should definitely be possible. Something like SAVIHost for Linux has to exist.. ?

The components exist, afaik, but it seems nobody has yet taken on the task of pre-rolling a Pi-compatible distro with all the necessary tools included.

I'm sure I could bumble my way to it, given enough time and research, but it's not within my existing expertise.

I'm just surprised, given the popularity of mt32-pi, and of GM/GS in general, that the existing Roland and/or Yamaha software synths haven't yet been modularised in this way for everyday usage in cheap form factor.

mattw wrote on 2022-12-02, 21:37:

Shreddoc wrote on 2022-12-02, 21:04:

On a different track. It surprises me that there doesn't yet exist a Pi-based simple VST host,

I prefer to use some high-quality thin-client like Fujitsu Futro rather than Pi-based system, but that's just my taste, I guess.

That sounds good too. I merely spoke of the Pi with relation to it's (usually) cheap, generic status. But, of course, that status is not very true, in the current supply situation!

Shreddoc wrote on 2022-12-02, 22:59:

That sounds good too. I merely spoke of the Pi with relation to it's (usually) cheap, generic status. But, of course, that status is not very true, in the current supply situation!

I don't know how much Pi capable to do MT32 costs, but my Fujitsu Futro thin-client costs 15 bucks, it's hard to beat that as price, it runs WinXP and I use it for MT32, Yamaha XG and Sound Canvas VA (older versions runs in WinXP). I guess there are even more options for thin-clients from HP, Wyse(Dell), etc available cheap second hand. I really don't get why anyone would want to use Pi.

[EDIT] in fact, i've just checked and HP thin client with 2 times faster CPU than mine Fujitsu Futro and even keyboard, mouse and DVI-to-VGA adapter included, costs those 15-20 bucks at the moment.

Is it Linux or Windows that has issues with low-latency audio? That might a big point on why this doesn't exist on a Pi.

MT32-Pi isn't Linux, it's running bare metal on the Pi.

VSTs are based on Windows, so you need both Wine and x86 to ARM translation to run them. Then it's a matter of redirecting the MIDI serial data to Wine, and getting the audio to play.

VSTs can also rely on mouse-driven GUI input. Most will at least boot into a state that will play something, but what if you need to change settings, or switch the synth in Virtual Sound Canvas?

SScorpio wrote on 2022-12-02, 23:40:

Is it Linux or Windows that has issues with low-latency audio? That might a big point on why this doesn't exist on a Pi. […]
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Is it Linux or Windows that has issues with low-latency audio? That might a big point on why this doesn't exist on a Pi.

MT32-Pi isn't Linux, it's running bare metal on the Pi.

VSTs are based on Windows, so you need both Wine and x86 to ARM translation to run them. Then it's a matter of redirecting the MIDI serial data to Wine, and getting the audio to play.

VSTs can also rely on mouse-driven GUI input. Most will at least boot into a state that will play something, but what if you need to change settings, or switch the synth in Virtual Sound Canvas?

I see. mt32-pi = Circle baremetal framework for Pi. Not linux.

I acknowledge your points. Clearly, we have no shortage of reasons why "it can't be done". But still, I suspect it could, somehow - just not necessarily easily.

mattw wrote on 2022-12-02, 23:25:

Shreddoc wrote on 2022-12-02, 22:59:

That sounds good too. I merely spoke of the Pi with relation to it's (usually) cheap, generic status. But, of course, that status is not very true, in the current supply situation!

I don't know how much Pi capable to do MT32 costs, but my Fujitsu Futro thin-client costs 15 bucks, it's hard to beat that as price, it runs WinXP and I use it for MT32, Yamaha XG and Sound Canvas VA (older versions runs in WinXP). I guess there are even more options for thin-clients from HP, Wyse(Dell), etc available cheap second hand. I really don't get why anyone would want to use Pi.

[EDIT] in fact, i've just checked and HP thin client with 2 times faster CPU than mine Fujitsu Futro and even keyboard, mouse and DVI-to-VGA adapter included, costs those 15-20 bucks at the moment.

That's all good. The Pi is good too, for various reasons. But that's it's own debate.

Good point though - that a thin client could be torn down to make a native x86/x64 single-use device purely for GM/GS VSTing. Perhaps a much easier path than trying to force the entire ecosystem into ARM. I don't know.

No doubting that the mt32-pi is a really elegant design however. I'd love to have an equivalent, DIY, all-in-one module-sized device purely dedicated to VST-based emulation. Built-in screen, buttons, etc. Based upon generic componentry that everybody can easily access off-the-shelf, in the way as the mt32-pi's. (*notwithstanding current supply chain issues!!)

If such a thing existed, I'd sell my real modules, honestly. I'm a pragmatist, not a purist.

mattw wrote on 2022-12-02, 23:25:

[EDIT] in fact, i've just checked and HP thin client with 2 times faster CPU than mine Fujitsu Futro and even keyboard, mouse and DVI-to-VGA adapter included, costs those 15-20 bucks at the moment.

where do you find thin clients for 20 bucks?

brandon9271 wrote on 2022-12-03, 00:08:

where do you find thin clients for 20 bucks?

eBay.com, search "thin client" sort by lowest price and shipping.

First result is: Dell Wyse Tx0 Thin Client for $13 with free shipping, and there are many, many more.

SScorpio wrote on 2022-12-03, 01:10:

brandon9271 wrote on 2022-12-03, 00:08:

where do you find thin clients for 20 bucks?

eBay.com, search "thin client" sort by lowest price and shipping.

First result is: Dell Wyse Tx0 Thin Client for $13 with free shipping, and there are many, many more.

awesome! i don't really need anymore hardware but at that price i can justify it. be a better emulation machine than a pi for the living room.

Well, the fact remains that neither GS nor XG standards are relevant for gaming purposes, so the use is limited. However, it has been pointed out recently that there is a MIDI track used in the Doom II addon "Alien Vendetta" that's actually supporting XG. And of course it sounds amazing.

On a side note, some classic Doom ports like Woof or PrBoom+ have recently made major strides to improve MIDI playback via VSTi by implementing SysEx resets. This should eliminate occasionally hanging notes.

Yes, the demand for a Sound Canvas or XG emulating device would indeed be limited to "people who use Sound Canvases or XG synths, for whatever purpose".

Here at Vogons, that's quite a large proportion of us. 😀

Shreddoc wrote on 2022-12-03, 08:44:

Yes, the demand for a Sound Canvas or XG emulating device would indeed be limited to "people who use Sound Canvases or XG synths, for whatever purpose".

Here at Vogons, that's quite a large proportion of us. 😀

There are dozens of us. Dozens!!!

SScorpio wrote on 2022-12-03, 15:15:

Shreddoc wrote on 2022-12-03, 08:44:

Yes, the demand for a Sound Canvas or XG emulating device would indeed be limited to "people who use Sound Canvases or XG synths, for whatever purpose".

Here at Vogons, that's quite a large proportion of us. 😀

There are dozens of us. Dozens!!!

The same could be said about most projects here.

Anyhow, I'm not here to argue about popularity, or look for reasons why not.

There will almost certainly be such a device sooner or later. <looks around at significant scene which remakes pretty much every popular PC sound hardware in existence, over time....>

Shreddoc wrote on 2022-12-03, 08:44:

Yes, the demand for a Sound Canvas or XG emulating device would indeed be limited to "people who use Sound Canvases or XG synths, for whatever purpose".

Here at Vogons, that's quite a large proportion of us. 😀

i use sound canvas VST quite a bit even though I own a real SC-55.

I have two old Roland VSC VSTs installed, one for GM2 and another for GS, and love them. I can go out and buy the still 100% functional with Windows 10/11 StudioCanvas units easily, but these work perfectly well for my gaming/MIDI listening usage at this time. Like any good VOGONS member, I also have the S-YXG50 VST installed and will use that whenever it feels appropriate. What we really need to accomplish is to hack-upgrade the old 32-bit VSTs to the more modern 64-bit versions and find a way to use the original GS ROMs with a Roland SuperCanvas VST module.

RetroGamer4Ever wrote on 2022-12-03, 21:42:

What we really need to accomplish is to hack-upgrade the old 32-bit VSTs to the more modern 64-bit versions and find a way to use the original GS ROMs with a Roland SuperCanvas VST module.

You'd need to decompile or completely reimplement them, sadly it isn't a simple conversion.

There is inexpensive bridge software that will load the 32-bit VST and allow it to work in a 64-bit DAW environment.

Lookup Bridgewize or jBridge.

it's a little bit off-topic, but just in case it helps someone and because it's based on information posted previously in this very forum thread, using the approach I described here:

Re: About Roland Virtual Sound Canvas 3

today during my morning tea (i.e. it wasn't hard at all), I was able to find the address line scrambling of WaveROM 4 and 5 in Roland U-220, the C source code showing how the de-scrambling is done for WaveROM4 is attached (it's the same for WaveROM5), here is also how WaveROM 4 looks like when unscrambled:

I did that just out of curiosity, because until now that semi-manual approach I described several years ago, I've used only on SC-88 and I was not actually sure if it's applicable for more general use or not. it seems so and after the first 8 to 10 bits of the address line scrambling is found, after that, it's astonishing how fast it's converging towards the solution.

@mattw, thank you for that pointer. I still have some JV2080 sound roms around that cannot be descrambled using the same available descrambling code as the SR-JV80 cards. That write up might turn out to be helpful. Though I also consider getting a cheap JV-1010 for the purpose of analyzing the sound roms with a logic analyzer. I find it just as interesting to figure out how that would work on a hardware level. Especially whether this works with a limited amount of channels (I have only 8 channels) or whether more channels are necessary.

mattw wrote on 2020-10-22, 14:22:

we can decrypt and extract the sounds from any VSC Soundbank - they are still high quality sounds (12-bit contrary for example to 8-bit sounds Roland licenses to 3rd parties), but (supposedly) not as high-quality as the sounds inside Hardware SC-55 Waverom. So, currently you can make SF2 and DLS based on any VSC soundbank - I guess it's still much better than what is available as SF2 and DLS regarding SC-55 at the moment.

Perhaps a bit off-topic, but recently I was able to create a tool for decrypting Crystal's CWCDLS8.CLS sound banks. Maybe people in this thread would be interested.

Re: Terratec? Crystal? CS4624/4630 Software Wavetable

binarymaster wrote on 2024-03-19, 21:58:

recently I was able to create a tool for decrypting Crystal's CWCDLS8.CLS sound banks

nice, I like any decryption tool and it's good to see more sounds liberated.