But if you swap back to a Voodoo3 (still w/DX7), does everything work just fine?

feipoa wrote on 2021-11-15, 01:17:

But if you swap back to a Voodoo3 (still w/DX7), does everything work just fine?

The Voodoo 3 was working fine under DX6 and after I swapped in the Voodoo4 I noticed DXdiag said there was no 3D acceleration available. The driver for the Voodoo 4 mentioned needing to install DX7 after the device driver installation so I thought that might correct things.

I haven’t tried to pop the Voodoo3 back in after the DX7 install but I’ll try that next.

Swapped the Voodoo3 back in and it’s working great. We’ll MotoRacer is, the DXdiag tool is still throwing an illegal operation.

I might try the 4500 with a POD later, maybe the driver needs those Pentium instructions.

Update: tried Turok on the Voodoo 4 and it started for a few seconds, screen goes black, just like MotoRacer.

I should probably re-check this card in another machine.

Update 2: blank screen only seems to happen when I have a cd in this crazy loud 52x cdrom unit. Direct3D games are running fine as long as no CD is in the drive. Perhaps my PS isn’t keeping up?

schlomoe99 wrote on 2021-08-21, 23:15:

My Sapphire ATI Radeon 9250 worked on my M919 VIP board last fall. It had more graphics memory than system RAM 😂

I'd only add that though my 9250 worked on this M919 rev 3 v1.5 board last year, a Voodoo 3 3000 PCI did not. UMC chipset, as has already been brought up.

EDIT: Fixed wrong revision.

schlomoe99 wrote on 2021-11-15, 02:16:

schlomoe99 wrote on 2021-08-21, 23:15:

My Sapphire ATI Radeon 9250 worked on my M919 VIP board last fall. It had more graphics memory than system RAM 😂

I'd only add that though my 9250 worked on this M919 rev 3 board last year, a Voodoo 3 3000 PCI did not. UMC chipset, as has already been brought up.

Do OpenGL and Direct3D games work on your M919 with Radeon 9250?

feipoa wrote on 2021-11-15, 04:00:

schlomoe99 wrote on 2021-11-15, 02:16:

schlomoe99 wrote on 2021-08-21, 23:15:

My Sapphire ATI Radeon 9250 worked on my M919 VIP board last fall. It had more graphics memory than system RAM 😂

I'd only add that though my 9250 worked on this M919 rev 3 board last year, a Voodoo 3 3000 PCI did not. UMC chipset, as has already been brought up.

Do OpenGL and Direct3D games work on your M919 with Radeon 9250?

I never used the 9250 for 3D, only as a temporary 2D card until a replacement Trident came in. I was shocked that it worked in the first place, to be honest. I had paired it with an Orchid Voodoo 1, so all of my 3D needs were tested via Glide only.

If there is interest, I may be able to test later this week. Also of note, I’m using an AMD 5x86 133 ADZ with this system and though I’ve installed Windows 95 it was primarily a DOS machine.

I would be interested. Might take some time to go through the driver versions though.

Interested as well.

Ok but give us some performance numbers with v4. 😀

pshipkov wrote on 2021-11-16, 06:33:

Ok but give us some performance numbers with v4. :)

Yeah, v3 vs. v4 - any benefit for v4 in timedemos that did complete?

feipoa wrote on 2021-11-16, 08:03:

pshipkov wrote on 2021-11-16, 06:33:

Ok but give us some performance numbers with v4. 😀

Yeah, v3 vs. v4 - any benefit for v4 in timedemos that did complete?

No difference in GLQuake unfortunately. Not with an AM5x86 at least. Let me check your list of games I can test with and I’ll get some more numbers.

What I am impressed with on this build is how fluid the GUI and mouse are and how crisp the image is with either the v3 or v4. It’s a really nice combo for working in Windows if you have to do it on a 486.

Radeon X1300 and geforce 6200 are pretty good bets for (working) on old systems as far as booting goes. But there is a problem with drivers on such a setup, while you can run windows xp on a 486 drivers are likely designed for mmx or later on the 6200 and pIII or later on the x1300 If I recall.

A 9200 and fx5500 become the next candidates. Both of which have win 9x support.
And possibly win xp and 486 support?

As for what works with dos, no idea, I haven’t messed with dos stuff much.

Just a warning for people that want to try too new PCI cards:
My Powercolor ATI Radeon HD 5450 PCI 512 MB does not even boot.
However, both card and motherboard did not take any damage.

I would not try anyway a modern PCI card on such early PCI mainboards even for the power wattage required. Some of these modern PCI cards requires even 29 watts and that would be close to the total maximun power of all the PCI bus. Even modern late PCI bridged mainboards seems to see that as an unusual situation IMHO; maybe nothing might happens who knows but still they are far from intended to run on those configs. It's like running those Pentium MMX 233Mhz or K6 233Mhz on those mainboards that felt quite stressed from using it as absolute maximun on already old stressed components anyway. 😉

It is usually pretty easy to get 2D display drivers working, but issues arise when using Direct3D or OpenGL.

Sphere478 wrote on 2021-11-16, 08:58:

while you can run windows xp on a 486

You can? I'm pretty sure XP requires some Pentium instructions. Or did you mean it is possible to run XP on a socket 3? This is possible if using the Pentium Overdrive.

Sphere478 wrote on 2021-11-16, 08:58:

And possibly win xp and 486 support?

You can't run XP on a 486 since it misses the instruction CMPXCHG8B which is required by the kernel for mutex implementation.
However, there is an early XP beta, called Whistler which supported 486 but they removed support from beta 2232 to 2250.
So in fact there is just ONE Windows NT kernel that reports the version number 5.1 from XP (Whistler 2232) that can be executed on a 486. There is not even one upgrade for a 486.

However, it is absolutely not worth to try this beta.
Despite to its questionable driver support it lacks so many features from XP, even to the RTM version without any servicepack.

Disruptor wrote on 2021-11-16, 09:22:

Just a warning for people that want to try too new PCI cards:
My Powercolor ATI Radeon HD 5450 PCI 512 MB does not even boot.
However, both card and motherboard did not take any damage.

Yeah getting pci cards to work in older motherboards seems super hit and miss. Anything newer than x1300 and 6200 it seems you don’t even have a chance on anything socket 7 or older.

feipoa wrote on 2021-11-16, 10:40:

It is usually pretty easy to get 2D display drivers working, but issues arise when using Direct3D or OpenGL.

Sphere478 wrote on 2021-11-16, 08:58:

while you can run windows xp on a 486

You can? I'm pretty sure XP requires some Pentium instructions. Or did you mean it is possible to run XP on a socket 3? This is possible if using the Pentium Overdrive.

I think you may be correct, I may have been thinking of socket 3 pentium overdrive but I did find this.

https://www.betaarchive.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26472

Disruptor wrote on 2021-11-16, 12:26:

You can't run XP on a 486 since it misses the instruction CMPXCHG8B which is required by the kernel for mutex implementation. Ho […]
Show full quote

Sphere478 wrote on 2021-11-16, 08:58:

And possibly win xp and 486 support?

You can't run XP on a 486 since it misses the instruction CMPXCHG8B which is required by the kernel for mutex implementation.
However, there is an early XP beta, called Whistler which supported 486 but they removed support from beta 2232 to 2250.
So in fact there is just ONE Windows NT kernel that reports the version number 5.1 from XP (Whistler 2232) that can be executed on a 486. There is not even one upgrade for a 486.

However, it is absolutely not worth to try this beta.
Despite to its questionable driver support it lacks so many features from XP, even to the RTM version without any servicepack.

Yep, my bad.

AM5x86@180MHz
64MB EDO
256K Cache

Turok (Glide)
Voodoo 3 - 22.5 fps
Voodoo 4 - 21.5fps

GLQuake
Voodoo 3 - 30fps
Voodoo 4 - 29.5fps

This is in line with my observation that interactive graphics are CPU bound.
Which was confirmed on my side by tweaking viewport resolution and not getting perf difference.
Now confirmed by you as well.
Thanks.

Great thread, again! 😀

Unfortunately, I am absolutely not able to get a Geforce 2 MX-400 working with GLQuake (both Windows 95C and Windows ME) 🙁

My hardware-setup:
- AMD DX5-133 @ 133 MHz (no OCing for now, to avoid OC-caused problems during the system-setup)
- Shuttle HOT-433 in both Revisions 1 ( 1 MB L2 in WB; 128 MB RAM) and 4.0 (512 KB L2 in WT; 128 MB RAM) at normal settings, FSB 33 MHz
- soundcard: both of no using soundcard, or using an AWE64, CT4500 (ISA)
- COM-mouse
- Geforce 2 MX-400 from Creative
- no other hardware installed

In DOS-mode, any other usual software-benchmars like PCPBench, 3Dbench, SystemSpeedTest, Quake (1) , etc . work perfectly.
In Windows-Mode I can run WinQuake with Nvidia-driver 44.03 in both 95C and ME. With driver 30.82 WinQuake does not start (black-screen-freeze at the start). Newer drivers have problems to recognize the Geforce.
So I can exclude other hardware-problems except of the handling of the Geforce 2 and/or GLQuake in Windows-mode itself.
I tested both Quake-versions from Phil's Computerlab and the Shareware-Version 1.06.
DirectX 6.1 or DirectX 7 is installed.
I already know the OpenGL.dll-problem of Non-Voodoo-VGAs, so I tested both of cancelling the opengl.dll from the Quake-directory, or to copy the original Nvidia-Opengl.dll into the game-directory: no success 🙁
What I can see after starting GLQuake is the bar with the color-adjustment and the message "wait for about 30-60 sec", after that it appers eighter an error-message about the NVopengl.dll, or a system-freeze.

I have tried to use a Voodoo 2 together with the GF 2 -> unfortunately after installing the Voodoo-drivers and restarting the system it is not possible to get the properties-menu to ajust the display-and voodoo-settings (right-click on the desktop and choosing "properties" results in freezing the system) . The problem accurs with both the latest original and the newest FastVoodoo-drivers (the Voodoo is everytime visible as expected in the device-manager under "Audio"). Alternatively I have tested a Matrox Millennium II (8 MB of VRAM) together with the Voodoo 2 -> with exactly the same problems like using the GF 2. GLQuake does not start.

My questions:
- maybe this board-model does not like both the Geforce 2 and the Voodoo 2 in generally because of the PCI-version? I assume, the onboard-PCI-version is 1.0 or 1.1. Both VGAs maybe need PCI 2.0/2.1 for 3D-use?
- do I maybe need a complete full version of Quake (if so, no idea where to get it)?
- when using the Geforce: maybe it's still a driver-problem (need of another driver-version)?
- is there another software to be installed in advance of the GLQuake?
- is maybe in addition something else to do inside of the game-directory of Quake?

Many thanks 😀