I'm not exactly sure whether it is in scope for this or not, but I've got an MT-80s I'm happy to record from. It's not "Sound Canvas" branded, but it does claim to have GS support, and I see at least one other MT device in this thread already.

CrossBow777 wrote on 2022-03-16, 18:09:

In addition to others, I've got my MT-200, MT-300, SD-20, and both my MT-90S and MT-90U that I can record from.

Hey man!

Would love these recorded! (Excluding the SD-20, which we'll save for the GM comparison.)

If you have the time, I'd also love to know what DAC the MT-90S uses, if you're willing to open it up. I imagine it's the AK4552, but maybe not. (The service manual for the 90S isn't online, as far as I can find anyway.)

What are the "others"? 😀 GM synths?

SuperDeadite wrote on 2022-03-17, 12:55:

Now I'm confused. Thought this was going to be a 55 based comparison. Which to me means only devices with official GS support. SC-7 was never meant to be a 55. E-Mu Sound Engine is a Waveblaster... I think including such extras kind of defeats the point imo.

The comparison is two sets of synths, the SC-55 era, and the beyond SC-55 era.
Regarding the SC-55: this will be for any Roland device (and some others like a Boss branded DR-330) which has the SC-55 sample set, NOT including ones that have the later ROM (SC-88+) in SC-55 mode (This wasn't the case initially, I'm changing it now).
The SC-7 will be included as it has the GM tones of the SC-55, but I'll be amending the project document and such GM only SC's and SC-55 modes will be limited. They are however SC-55 adjacent and potentially useful for GM gaming, so they're relevant. They will be noted in the GS recording section as N/A because they are not GS-compatible.

The SC-55 mode recordings will now be included in SC-88+ era synths.

As for an E-MU Sound Engine, I don't remember mentioning that. If someone else did, it was their mistake, there's no relation to this project. Other misc GM devices will be addressed in the next project, the GM one. Details to come later.

Digitalzombie wrote on 2022-03-17, 10:55:

appiah4 wrote on 2022-03-17, 06:46:

[...]SD-35 [...]

Noooooo ... you've ninja'd me (by hours)! 😁

Got one too. And SC-55, but thats already covered I guess.

Hey! Not sure if you read the document, but we will be recording duplicates. 😀

So you have a SD-35 and SC-55 (and soon to be SC-88)! Congrats. Look forward to including them.

enaiel wrote on 2022-03-17, 13:22:

Sorry, I might have skipped through the thread, I was going from the OP:

Surely the SC-50 and SC-7 are Sound Canvas variants that have the Sound Canvas GM set? Anyway, was just suggesting if the recordings were required, will not submit if not.

Don't worry about it! Thanks for being a part of it. Absolutely want both of those recorded. 😀

Sunoo wrote on 2022-03-17, 13:23:

I'm not exactly sure whether it is in scope for this or not, but I've got an MT-80s I'm happy to record from. It's not "Sound Canvas" branded, but it does claim to have GS support, and I see at least one other MT device in this thread already.

Thanks! Sound Canvas branding is irrelevant, if it has SC-55 or SC-88+ samples, that's what we're interested in. This looks like a SC-50 sample set, which is awesome.

As mentioned in some of the last few posts, I'm going to make some big changes to the project document, including:
- A list of devices covered and who's covering them
- A change, SC-55 mode compatibility is now being moved to the "SC-88+" side of the project, since the waveforms are different and it will confuse the issue if alongside actual SC-55's (for those who don't know, the SC-88 and beyond do NOT have the same SC-55 samples)
- A comprehensive update for the new devices, and most of their DAC's
- Files to record - there will be a section for GM and GS files for both categories (SC-55, SC-88+). I'll be using official Roland GM/GS files for this project, and when the GM project is introduced, GM gaming tracks will (hopefully) be recorded from the Roland devices for that project.

The changes will be tomorrow, and I'll post here.

Please note 1: If you have a device already represented by the project - we want your recording anyway! Since most people have different hardware/software setups, we want duplicate recordings to lessen the effect of such differences, and focus on how Sound Canvas variants sound different themselves (e.g., SC-55 vs SC-55mkII).

Please note 2: For the purposes of this project, a "Sound Canvas" is a Roland device (with the exception of the Boss branded Boss DR-330, and devices that specifically have GS compatibility such as the Korg NS5R/NX5R/N1R and Yamaha MU series) that:
- has the following sample sets:
SC-55: either a SC-55 GS sample set (128 GM tones, with 98 Roland GS tones and 128 MT-32 tones added on top); a SC-50 GS sample set (128 GM tones and 98 GS, no MT-32); and in some cases, a SC-7 GM sample set (128 GM tones only).
SC-88+: SC-88 or beyond sample set, including SC-55 compatibility modes - SC-88, SC-88Pro, SC-8820, SC-8850 and *any* equivalents. Also included are Roland devices with SC-55 compatibility modes (whether called as such or not) using a SC-55 sample set that are GM only (e.g. Roland INTEGRA-7).
- is not necessarily called a "Sound Canvas" - for example, a Roland JV-50 is a SC-50 in a keyboard with some upgraded audio hardware, and a Roland VA-7 keyboard is a more modern touchscreen arranger, using the SC-8820/50 sample set with some additional waveforms and most of the SC-8820/50 audio hardware.

So don't be put off about "what is included" or "what's been recorded". I'll let you know if something falls out of the purview, and if it does, chances are I'll want it for the later coming GM project anyway. 😀

This is an intriguing project and I'm interested in contributing what I can.

I'm especially interested in a broader GM comparison project, especially for other Roland devices beyond the Sound Canvases. I've done comparison recordings in the past and I know there is overlap with Roland samples from the SC-55's and SC-88's being used in their GM sample sets for devices like the JV-1010 and XV-5080.

Neat project and it will interesting to hear all the comparisons!

SuperDeadite wrote on 2022-03-17, 12:55:

Now I'm confused. Thought this was going to be a 55 based comparison. Which to me means only devices with official GS support. SC-7 was never meant to be a 55. E-Mu Sound Engine is a Waveblaster... I think including such extras kind of defeats the point imo.

actually, waveblaster is based on the EMU8801, the SoundEngine is an improved EMU8805 design.
Its also different in that the waveblaster does not have the Analog Devices DSP that the 8805 has for effects. it also has better dacs and analog isolation than creative designs 😀

Now, the rom might be the same between waveblaster I + soundengine, at 4mb, I know waveblasterII went from 4mb to 2mb rom, and reduced samples. I think the soundengine 4mb had better voicing + presets over the original waveblaster but that might be my bias.

shrug.

If nobody has offered, I have an Edirol SC88VL, but thats probably covered by any SC88/SC88ST/GS64

Shponglefan wrote on 2022-03-17, 14:54:

This is an intriguing project and I'm interested in contributing what I can.

I'm especially interested in a broader GM comparison project, especially for other Roland devices beyond the Sound Canvases. I've done comparison recordings in the past and I know there is overlap with Roland samples from the SC-55's and SC-88's being used in their GM sample sets for devices like the JV-1010 and XV-5080.

Neat project and it will interesting to hear all the comparisons!

Thanks man!

I take it for this project, you have: Roland SC-D70, CM-500, SC-55, SC-55 mkII, SC-55ST, SC-88, SC-88 Pro, Korg NS5R, Yamaha TG300, MU-80, MU-2000EX? (Others eligible for the GM project)

I'm also interested in the broad project, but I want to focus on this to make it succeed and see if the interest/support is out there to make the much more complex GM project happen. I'll be asking for crowdfunding at a Patreon level (maybe I should do more than this?), to support the level of work that running the project will entail. (Although I'll be starting a Patreon regardless, so anyone who thinks it won't work doesn't need to worry about this.)

Spikey wrote on 2022-03-17, 17:05:

I take it for this project, you have: Roland SC-D70, CM-500, SC-55, SC-55 mkII, SC-55ST, SC-88, SC-88 Pro, Korg NS5R, Yamaha TG300, MU-80, MU-2000EX? (Others eligible for the GM project)

Correct, I currently own all those modules. They should all be functional, although admittedly some of them I haven't used in a few years so I'll have to double check.

BloodyCactus wrote on 2022-03-17, 15:17:

If nobody has offered, I have an Edirol SC88VL, but thats probably covered by any SC88/SC88ST/GS64

Thanks man! I encourage you to read the project again for questions like these. The SC-88VL is not just different to a SC-88 in terms of the name, it uses a different (inferior) DAC and thus has a different sound. Precisely the kind of thing I want to document and record!.

In fact, a SC-88ST, SC-88VL and M-GS64 all use a NEC UPD63200 DAC (same as the SC-55mkII), whereas the "actual" SC-88 (and 88Pro!) use a superior BurrBrown PCM69 DAC. I assume they use the same waveforms/ROM size, but I haven't looked at opening *that* whole can o' worms yet.

Spikey wrote on 2022-03-17, 14:08:

Hey man! […]
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CrossBow777 wrote on 2022-03-16, 18:09:

In addition to others, I've got my MT-200, MT-300, SD-20, and both my MT-90S and MT-90U that I can record from.

Hey man!

Would love these recorded! (Excluding the SD-20, which we'll save for the GM comparison.)

If you have the time, I'd also love to know what DAC the MT-90S uses, if you're willing to open it up. I imagine it's the AK4552, but maybe not. (The service manual for the 90S isn't online, as far as I can find anyway.)

What are the "others"? 😀 GM synths?

They are all GS and GM synths. The MT-200 has been spoken about before and near as can be figured, it is basically an SC-55 sample set. The MT-300 I'm not sure about as it obviously has GS fonts on it but some of them do sound different from the MT-200. The MT-300 is 4 years newer than the 200 is. The MT-90S and 90U sound different from each other and again there are several years differences between when they were made.

The SD-20 is the Edirol SD-20 and it is GS, GM, GM2, and XGLite synth which, is why I mentioned it. I do believe from what I can hear with my own ears, that the MT-300 has capital tone fallback, but the MT-90s and MT-90U do not appear to have this as instead of grand piano being played on instruments they don't have in the same patch, you jus ge silence for that channel.

Spikey wrote on 2022-03-13, 11:09:

Also, every time I see your name I think of your SQ2VGA project. Wish it had gotten finished. (Yes, I know IA made one later.)

Real life and having a day job got in the way of especially the art. The code I created for it still lives on today and all of the adventure games I've made over the years can trace their lineage back to the SQ2 remake project. The project itself is still on my drive in buildable form.

CrossBow777 wrote:

They are all GS and GM synths. The MT-200 has been spoken about before and near as can be figured, it is basically an SC-55 sample set. The MT-300 I'm not sure about as it obviously has GS fonts on it but some of them do sound different from the MT-200. The MT-300 is 4 years newer than the 200 is. The MT-90S and 90U sound different from each other and again there are several years differences between when they were made.

The SD-20 is the Edirol SD-20 and it is GS, GM, GM2, and XGLite synth which, is why I mentioned it. I do believe from what I can hear with my own ears, that the MT-300 has capital tone fallback, but the MT-90s and MT-90U do not appear to have this as instead of grand piano being played on instruments they don't have in the same patch, you jus ge silence for that channel.

Sorry, when you said others I meant where you said "in addition to others", not the ones you actually listed.

The MT-200 is a SC-55 Rom with a 6376 DAC, from what I can tell. And you and others have talked about the presence/lack of bugs depending on firmware version.

The MT-300 and 300S appear to be based upon the SC-88, and use the same DAC.

The 90S (2000) and 90U (2008):
90S: made in 2000. SC-8850 derived possibly, although has 64-voice polyphony and some tones I'm unfamiliar with like "Ai-yai-a". Maybe a mashup between Sound Canvas tech and modern (for the time) tech.
No service manual, as I touched on, if you ever feel like opening yours up, that would be a big help. 😀
90U: made in 2008. Unsure as no tone list for it that I can find, but has modern DAC (AK4552), 128-voice polyphony and 32MB Wave ROM. I suspect more related to the SD-50/Sonic Cell, which came out around the same time. Chances are they all use SC-50 maps with some extra modern tones.

As for the SD-20, that's a fair point, and folks will be curious about them since they're now rare. I'll add that to the project document, a third category which has "Other Canvases", i.e. SDs/equivalents and others like the Sonic Cell. If the 20 is the same as my 50, "Classical" mode basically uses a SC-50 sound map, aka SC-55 mkII without MT-32 tones.

Spikey wrote on 2022-03-18, 13:23:

As for the SD-20, that's a fair point, and folks will be curious about them since they're now rare. I'll add that to the project document, a third category which has "Other Canvases", i.e. SDs/equivalents and others like the Sonic Cell. If the 20 is the same as my 50, "Classical" mode basically uses a SC-50 sound map, aka SC-55 mkII without MT-32 tones.

Would this cover both the entire Edirol Studio Canvas line then ? And what of other Roland GM/GM2 hardware (JV-1080/2080, JV-1010, XV-2020/3080/5050/5080)? If the Sonic Cell is being included, then I could see including the other Roland GM h/w.

I don't know if the full maps are the same in all their h/w, but I do know they reuse at least some samples from the earlier Sound Canvases are part of their later GM/GM2 sample sets.

Spikey wrote on 2022-03-18, 13:23:

90S: made in 2000. SC-8850 derived possibly, although has 64-voice polyphony and some tones I'm unfamiliar with like "Ai-yai-a". […]
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90S: made in 2000. SC-8850 derived possibly, although has 64-voice polyphony and some tones I'm unfamiliar with like "Ai-yai-a". Maybe a mashup between Sound Canvas tech and modern (for the time) tech.
No service manual, as I touched on, if you ever feel like opening yours up, that would be a big help. 😀
90U: made in 2008. Unsure as no tone list for it that I can find, but has modern DAC (AK4552), 128-voice polyphony and 32MB Wave ROM. I suspect more related to the SD-50/Sonic Cell, which came out around the same time. Chances are they all use SC-50 maps with some extra modern tones.

As for the SD-20, that's a fair point, and folks will be curious about them since they're now rare. I'll add that to the project document, a third category which has "Other Canvases", i.e. SDs/equivalents and others like the Sonic Cell. If the 20 is the same as my 50, "Classical" mode basically uses a SC-50 sound map, aka SC-55 mkII without MT-32 tones.

I might have the service manual for the 90s not sure. I'm more than happy to open it back up as I've done so several times. The 90U I do have full manuals for as I got my 90U brand new in box over this past summer. So I could provide a tone list for it.

CrossBow777 wrote:

I might have the service manual for the 90s not sure. I'm more than happy to open it back up as I've done so several times. The 90U I do have full manuals for as I got my 90U brand new in box over this past summer. So I could provide a tone list for it.

Thanks, the 90S DAC info and possibly Wave ROM (pretty hard to tell, but have at it!) would be very informative. If you have a service manual even better.

The 90U tone list would be great. I imagine it's similar to the 90S, but one of the reasons for this project is to not assume things.. 😉

Shponglefan wrote on 2022-03-18, 14:10:

Spikey wrote on 2022-03-18, 13:23:

As for the SD-20, that's a fair point, and folks will be curious about them since they're now rare. I'll add that to the project document, a third category which has "Other Canvases", i.e. SDs/equivalents and others like the Sonic Cell. If the 20 is the same as my 50, "Classical" mode basically uses a SC-50 sound map, aka SC-55 mkII without MT-32 tones.

Would this cover both the entire Edirol Studio Canvas line then ? And what of other Roland GM/GM2 hardware (JV-1080/2080, JV-1010, XV-2020/3080/5050/5080)? If the Sonic Cell is being included, then I could see including the other Roland GM h/w.

I don't know if the full maps are the same in all their h/w, but I do know they reuse at least some samples from the earlier Sound Canvases are part of their later GM/GM2 sample sets.

Really the inclusion was made as it covers a handful of devices and is relevant for people gaming. Basically the units are literally these 5: SD-20, 80, 90, SonicCell, SD-50. And then sort of the Integra insofar as its SC-55 GM map which is probably derived from one of the SD's. If there's more SD or related's, someone let me know!

No, it wouldn't include JV or XV products, as they are not GS compatible and use different samples. Samples are not "reused" from Sound Canvases, in both the SC and JV/XV cases they're used from Roland's sample set, the closest example would be the sample CD's used with the Roland S-series sampling line which is the source of all these synths' sample sets. And no, I'm not including those either. 😉

As you know, there is going to be a GM comparison *at some point*. At that point there'll be open slather (to a point!), and there'll be "gaming", "pro", etc. categories.