UCyborg wrote on 2024-06-17, 22:38:

If I got my hands on the really old computer these days, I imagine I'd be enthusiastic about it for a short while, then it'd be likely just collecting dust in the basement.

I think the same, the truth is that my older machines dont get switched on much because of all i can do on the 'newer' ones (new means 64 bit 😀 ) with Win7, Win10 and Linux Mint encompasses almost everything the older ones did anyway, without any loss of 'using the software' experience aside from the noises etc of old machines.

Mandrew wrote on 2024-06-18, 07:19:

Things that were crap 25 years ago didn't magically get good after spending 10 years in a damp basement just to be thrown around in recycling centers and manhandled by resellers. Building a good system that wasn't a budget excuse for a computer is a chore that could turn expensive real quick so I don't blame people who don't even want to bother with it. There is nothing wrong with budget stuff but it's magical when you can finally build your dream rig you couldn't afford as a kid.

The history of a given computer or component isn't always considered - by the time you 'win' the auction or find it at a thrift store the thing could have been too cold, too hot, damp, smoky, dropped and so on regularly for 30 years. Its surprising what electronics can put up with, but there's a limit and slowly but surely we all seem to be reaching it

Cosmic wrote on 2024-06-18, 03:42:

I enjoy old hardware almost as much as the software that runs on it. 86Box is an amazing piece of software but for me it doesn't scratch the itch of installing and testing real parts.

There's just something so satisfying about getting real hardware up and running and physically experiencing its qualities (good and bad). It's also a blast seeing what it's still capable of. My P3 rig can do almost everything my modern machine can do, just with older and less featureful versions of the software. My 486 build can go online, read news, and host FTP and HTTP services. Plus it's just plain fun to toggle a big honkin' AT switch and listen to the mechanical beast come to life at 66MHz.

there is a joy in getting an old machine to do "modern" things, that truly cant be emulated

AppleSauce wrote on 2024-06-18, 03:03:

Its not technically required , but having a vintage machine can be fun, I was recently playing descent on my dos pc and enjoying […]
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Its not technically required , but having a vintage machine can be fun, I was recently playing descent on my dos pc and enjoying it on a nice big 21 inch Trinitron G500 monitor and listening to the midi soundtrack on my roland SC55 connected to a bug free genuine MPU 401 and outputted through some roland MA20 speakers.

It felt really decadent.

But that said my hardware has been flaky from time to time , when it works its great but it does feel like I'm trying to hold onto sand and the longer time passes the further the hardware slips into the abyss of history past.

So I reckon the only real future proof solution is to preserve the software , as the hardware ain't much without software anyhow.

Not long ago I was pondering about what the best method would be as a little thought experiment, and it makes me wonder would it be possible to make some kind of universal decompiler that breaks each game down to some kind of pseudo code that can be converted to other languages and recompiled to any platform.

That way the source software can keep being reimplemented on newer and newer computers.

Something like that would be cool if it was even possible because even emulators aren't forever , people in the thread mentioned later windows versions breaking compatibility with even those so making agnostic master tape versions of games seems to be the only way I could think of keeping the software alive for decades to come , plus running the games natively has its perks.

yes, in time the number of working machines dwindle. i'm not sure how a universal decompiler would work without needing to understand the specifics of the platform being compiled for at which point it may as well be an emulator - although i like the idea of decompiler/recompiler tools across platforms, taking an old DOS exe and reproducing a native Android version for instance

i suspect emulation and VMs will simply continue and with it some need to keep up with it all

i can imagine in the future being on some platform, say linux on some multi core machine, running win7 in a vm that is running old gog games plus pcem which contains a set up of win 98se and some old console emulator 😀 wheels within wheels!

In my case, I would have to say YES

Aside from games, I have way too much older software that is now only available in subscription format - which I REFUSE to touch.
Which means I now need two computers - one fairly modern for getting on the internet and another for everything else

With that said, the really old stuff has fallen away now. No more DOS or Win 3.1 machines. No more socket 7 systems. No more CRT monitors.

ncmark wrote on 2024-06-18, 10:46:

In my case, I would have to say YES […]
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In my case, I would have to say YES

Aside from games, I have way too much older software that is now only available in subscription format - which I REFUSE to touch.
Which means I now need two computers - one fairly modern for getting on the internet and another for everything else

With that said, the really old stuff has fallen away now. No more DOS or Win 3.1 machines. No more socket 7 systems. No more CRT monitors.

with the inexorable move to 'saas' and always online there is a good argument to keep hold of physical computers. PCs still seem abundant enough now but that might change.

the dual approach - something modern for online and something(s) older for offline seems sensible, some software is good enough and i don't need to "upgrade" to some subscription version regardless of what is happening in the commercial world, although i suppose a vm is plausible in some cases, or alternatives where available

We don't really "need" any of this, but we do it because it's fun.

I like old PCs for the same reason I like antique cars. Tooling down the road in a Model A is just fun. No one cares that you can "also go 40 mph in your 2023 Ram 1500 so why do you need the Model A". Plus just like with any other antique or vintage technology, you have usually torn the thing down and rebuilt it yourself, which is immensely satisfying.

I gotta ask myself another question though.
Why is this kinda thread always popping up multiple times in a year?
We are reaching the point of needing an FAQ to redirect people to the dozens of thread discussing this very same question.

gerry wrote on 2024-06-18, 12:58:

with the inexorable move to 'saas' and always online there is a good argument to keep hold of physical computers. PCs still seem abundant enough now but that might change.

the dual approach - something modern for online and something(s) older for offline seems sensible, some software is good enough and i don't need to "upgrade" to some subscription version regardless of what is happening in the commercial world, although i suppose a vm is plausible in some cases, or alternatives where available

Don't make long term plans around SAAS, it will be gone again soon. "Again? But BitWrangler it's the latest thing!" Nope, Emperors new clothes on the thing that fails in every decade since the 1960s. Even had a go around for video games over cable in the 1980s, which obviously was so awesome you get people talking about it nostalgically on retro forums all the time, listen ... *crickets* ... I think it's general utter "forgettability" in terms of how crap and uninspiring it is in every generation and iteration is the only thing that allows it to creep back again and seem like a new idea. IMO a good portion of the dotcom crash was due to hyperinflated valuations of companies with a "Build it, wall it off, charge out the ass on a subscription, and they will come." plan. What? Don't remember any of them? Exactly, it was crap and uninspiring. So if you've got any money in companies that are all in on SAAS, take it out before it's worth only 5 cents on the dollar.

But yeah, after this next shakeout, the "disruptor" that returns us to a more default, owned software, might not look the same as a recent past PC. Since we went mainframes to minicomputers, minis to micros, desktop PCs to larger proportion of laptops and from those to majority phones and tablets. Possibly that's going to be hardware to host your own very personal AI, like it's a kid and best friend, you don't want that to be living on Evil Corp's servers. The mode of interaction will be a lot different though, so may not be very good for rehosted games or emulation. So you still probably want your current and oldschool hardware.

iraito wrote on 2024-06-18, 13:46:

I gotta ask myself another question though.
Why is this kinda thread always popping up multiple times in a year?
We are reaching the point of needing an FAQ to redirect people to the dozens of thread discussing this very same question.

I'm in the loop with retro stuff intermittently. Who knows, maybe one year when we have this conversation again I'll learn that there is some new emulator, virtualization tool, etc that fixes all the problems effortlessly.

keenmaster486 wrote on 2024-06-18, 13:33:

We don't really "need" any of this, but we do it because it's fun.

I like old PCs for the same reason I like antique cars. Tooling down the road in a Model A is just fun. No one cares that you can "also go 40 mph in your 2023 Ram 1500 so why do you need the Model A". Plus just like with any other antique or vintage technology, you have usually torn the thing down and rebuilt it yourself, which is immensely satisfying.

you have a model A? now that is cool.

the experience difference in driving that must be markedly more noticeable that the difference in experience between running doom on a dos machine, running zdoom on windows, in a VM or dosbox though, where its all kinda the same

Namrok wrote on 2024-06-18, 14:02:

iraito wrote on 2024-06-18, 13:46:

I gotta ask myself another question though.
Why is this kinda thread always popping up multiple times in a year?
We are reaching the point of needing an FAQ to redirect people to the dozens of thread discussing this very same question.

I'm in the loop with retro stuff intermittently. Who knows, maybe one year when we have this conversation again I'll learn that there is some new emulator, virtualization tool, etc that fixes all the problems effortlessly.

But in this case it's not really a discussion about needing an alternative, this discussion is about something that is already non essential in practicality (but very well essential to the individual enjoying it) and just getting everybody's opinion, if this was a rarely discussed topic then sure go at it, but this kind of discussion is literally opened up monthly.

iraito wrote on 2024-06-18, 13:46:

I gotta ask myself another question though.
Why is this kinda thread always popping up multiple times in a year?
We are reaching the point of needing an FAQ to redirect people to the dozens of thread discussing this very same question.

is it though? dozens of times as a thread each year, this year, 2024?

if you mean it is mentioned in all kinds of threads then sure, that's true, comes up quite a bit in different contexts. It an ever moving topic - usage cases vary, hardware gets older and rarer and various options for vms, emulation etc advance a bit - and people have opinions about it that change.

for questions like "what driver for x" there is a value in a faq, the answer is fixed

for questions of viewpoint, experience, new developments a faq/redirection is a sure sign of soon-to-be dying forums

BitWrangler wrote on 2024-06-18, 14:00:

But yeah, after this next shakeout, the "disruptor" that returns us to a more default, owned software, might not look the same as a recent past PC. Since we went mainframes to minicomputers, minis to micros, desktop PCs to larger proportion of laptops and from those to majority phones and tablets. Possibly that's going to be hardware to host your own very personal AI, like it's a kid and best friend, you don't want that to be living on Evil Corp's servers. The mode of interaction will be a lot different though, so may not be very good for rehosted games or emulation. So you still probably want your current and oldschool hardware.

I think you're right - it wont be the same, not sure what it will be but i dont think there is a cyclical thing here, there's no return to software on cd/dvd or similar. its an argument to hang on to hardware for sure, a bit like the argument to hang on to dvds and dvd players for instance

gerry wrote on 2024-06-18, 14:13:

is it though? dozens of times as a thread each year, this year, 2024? […]
Show full quote

iraito wrote on 2024-06-18, 13:46:

I gotta ask myself another question though.
Why is this kinda thread always popping up multiple times in a year?
We are reaching the point of needing an FAQ to redirect people to the dozens of thread discussing this very same question.

is it though? dozens of times as a thread each year, this year, 2024?

if you mean it is mentioned in all kinds of threads then sure, that's true, comes up quite a bit in different contexts. It an ever moving topic - usage cases vary, hardware gets older and rarer and various options for vms, emulation etc advance a bit - and people have opinions about it that change.

for questions like "what driver for x" there is a value in a faq, the answer is fixed

for questions of viewpoint, experience, new developments a faq/redirection is a sure sign of soon-to-be dying forums

Uhm i guess that could be the case, but it doesn't seems to be the case with this one and as niche as it is retro computing is going strong as always, i think the issue is more existential and contextualized, people always asked these questions in here (even 10+ years ago) because at one point people tend to account: space, expenses, time etc. spent on the hobby, i think it's a natural thing.
For some reason this doesn't happen as much with consoles and it's not like time, space and money are anything less of a problem there.

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-06-17, 22:41:

UCyborg wrote on 2024-06-17, 22:38:

I grew up with vintage computers (late 90s/ early 00s), they were all heap of junk. Failing motherboards, failing hard drives, unexplainable oddities. Didn't take long for some hardware failure to occur.

That's around the time of the capacitor plague. Probably not coincidental.

I thought it was absurd how flaky things were back for me. I didn't know about capacitor plague until much later.

From those times, I still have and use the LCD screen Samsung SyncMaster 710N, must be 20 years old now or will be soon. My daily driver computer isn't much younger, from 2009, I feel old... It's the era I favor, seems computers and software were decently advanced back then, but not too advanced.

Regarding the OP's question, I'd say life is pointless and people just find random things to mess with to fill the void. Good for them.

Like some of the minority cases here, I also have to say YES.

The PC is not just a retro gaming system for me, it's way more than that - it's a tool that I've been using to store all my personal files, projects, and records (collectively, data) for the past 20+ years. Sure I could do this on a modern PC too. But it's not the same. For starters, I'm not a fan of the whole "software as a service" idea. While Windows 10/11 is not like that (yet?), I just don't like the constant FORCED updates - makes me feel as if I don't have any control over my own computer... and really I don't. Whose to say that an update won't break compatibility with something that I had working before? This is actually a legit concern, as I've had this happen to me many times with software with forced updates. Having been badly burned by broken updates in the past is something I just don't want to repeat, especially with my personal systems that I rely on every day. While I do have my data and software backed up fairly well, I don't want to waste time setting or re-setting up everything because an update broke something. Now, I know there are ways to disable the updates for Windows 10 Pro, but doing that on top of all the other things I have to do to it (read: de-bloat) to make it fit for my use is just not worth it / PITA. And more - I also find there to be too many major downgrades in the interface (explorer / shell) that don't allow me to organize my data the way I like. On that note, these changes / downgrades started with Vista/7 (particularly their introduction of "Libraries"), so I'm not a fan of these OSes either. Thus, I've just stuck to Windows 2000/XP/2003 all these years... well, mostly XP to be honest. While quite antiquated at this point, I don't mind it a single bit. I still have copies of all of the old software that I use with it. All of it is still perfectly functional too, even for most modern needs. At worst, it may be lacking on a few modern features here and there or more cumbersome for some very specific tasks. But for the most part, I rarely run into any of these limitations. The fact that I don't have to worry about a monthly/yearly/by-yearly subscription makes up for all of it already.

So naturally with old software comes the need for old hardware too - at least if you want to avoid all of the above pitfalls of modern self-updating software I mentioned above.
In my case, though, I just kept using my old systems instead of upgrading, so I didn't really need to buy/get a retro/vintage machine.

Also, contrary to many other's people's experience, I find older systems to be much more reliable than modern crap... though I can certainly understand why so many had bad experiences too. From the capacitor "plague" to unreliable bump-gated chipsets (read: nVidia) to stock CPU coolers warping the living ghosts out of some old motherboards, there's plenty of old hardware that's dreadful in terms of reliability. But avoid those, and you can get some bullet-proof vintage hardware out there. In contrast, I'd like to see a modern GPU or chipset or CPU last as long - most of these are now consumable silicone parts, made on too small of a process node. Basically, they are guaranteed to burn out after XX amount of hours of heavy use (or XX more hours if used less intensely.) Older hardware also tends to be simpler and easier to upkeep / repair, usually, at least on the component level.

So yes, I do very much need a vintage machine, as I simply refuse to waste time with diddling around with the silly software on modern machines.

ncmark wrote on 2024-06-18, 10:46:

Aside from games, I have way too much older software that is now only available in subscription format - which I REFUSE to touch.
Which means I now need two computers - one fairly modern for getting on the internet and another for everything else

Pretty much the same way here.
As much as I dislike Windows 7/10, a keep a few of these systems (mostly 7... I have only two Win 10 rigs out of my fleet of... over 10 now??) for the occasional "modern" browsing /gaming I do.

GemCookie wrote on 2024-06-17, 11:20:

I don't consider virtual machines an option for running Windows, especially if games are brought into the equation. Even in PCem, the screen seems to redraw at a mere 30-40 fps.

Exactly. Virtual machines (i.e., VirtualBox) don't accurately emulate the original hardware, and compatibility issues may arise some time and then. I always keep a couple or so spare vintage machines for gaming in general, because you get to experience it much better than God intended.

gerry wrote on 2024-06-18, 09:18:

wierd_w wrote on 2024-06-17, 20:19:

Most (but not all) of the experience can be replicated with an emulator...

But the part that cant, often TRULY CANT.

Hearing the grunt of the disk drives, the whirs and clunks of an mfm disk drive, or having the 'we did very unique stuff to the video signal expecting an ntsc television there!' Are things emulators dont provide.

i think that's the part, though small, that matters for some people. although as mentioned certain things, like swapping CDs, are not missed

I don't miss the swapping part, but sometimes I do miss the squeak-squeak sound of a Mitsumi Lu005 single-speed drive. 😅
To me, it's the equivalent to the floppy drive noise of an Amiga.

I would be very glad if emulators would simulate this eventually.

Also, both PCem and 86Box don't emulate the vintage CD-ROM interfaces supported by earlier operating systems (Win95, OS/2 Warp 3 and before): Panasonic/Sony/Mitsumi.

Instead, they merely support IDE/ATAPI and SCSI, which isn't period-correct in my eyes.
SCSI is okay, but support for the Trantor SCSI controller (PAS16) wouls be cool.

Ok, strictly speaking, support for an historic CD-ROM interface from 1986 or so would be cool.
That's what the Philips CDD 461 external CD player had used (it can read data CD-ROMs).

https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/phi … -3#post-1283594

Such a device should be emulated, especially in conjunction with PC/XT emulation it's important.
Early versions of MSCDEX and data CD-ROM may rely on this (these interfaces cards shipped with early CD-ROM drivers).

This was before things like ISO9660 had been around. At the time, the older High Sierra format was still in use.

momaka wrote on 2024-06-18, 22:17:

In contrast, I'd like to see a modern GPU or chipset or CPU last as long - most of these are now consumable silicone parts, made on too small of a process node. Basically, they are guaranteed to burn out after XX amount of hours of heavy use (or XX more hours if used less intensely.)

How do you know that is the case?

momaka wrote on 2024-06-18, 22:17:

I find older systems to be much more reliable than modern crap... though I can certainly understand why so many had bad experiences too. From the capacitor "plague" to unreliable bump-gated chipsets (read: nVidia) to stock CPU coolers warping the living ghosts out of some old motherboards, there's plenty of old hardware that's dreadful in terms of reliability. But avoid those, and you can get some bullet-proof vintage hardware out there.

I mean it stands to reason that hardware that were cared for, had decent enough cooling and didn't have any serious design or manufacturing flaws survived and the crap of old failed long ago. That natural selection already went through with old hardware and it's still an ongoing process for more recent hardware. 15-30 years from now it will be the same of today's modern hardware.

I also think modern hardware is not retroproof, but because it's part of the software as a service era so the future retro hardware won't have much software to run. And then what's the point having it? And even on consoles and other forms of entertainment media. It's as if FOMO is fully weaponized for profit even if it comes with the destruction of culture.