Spikey wrote on 2024-08-14, 11:12:Thanks so much! Really appreciate it you scanning it, it's hard to find service notes for the unusual Roland MT/SC variants.
Done
Karmeck wrote on 2024-08-14, 18:35:Spikey wrote on 2024-08-14, 11:12:Thanks so much! Really appreciate it you scanning it, it's hard to find service notes for the unusual Roland MT/SC variants.
Done
Amazing! Thank you so much for doing this!
I own one of these and while midi sounds mostly great through it some instruments sound like they are recorded from the next room over. Since the title of this is that it might be a secret sound canvas what defines that other than GM/GS support since it's not labeled anywhere as sound canvas. Did Roland make midi modules that don't qualify as sound canvas and were not labeled as such during this era or should it be assumed that as long as it is GM/GS = SC?
sydres wrote on 2024-09-16, 00:19:I own one of these and while midi sounds mostly great through it some instruments sound like they are recorded from the next room over. Since the title of this is that it might be a secret sound canvas what defines that other than GM/GS support since it's not labeled anywhere as sound canvas. Did Roland make midi modules that don't qualify as sound canvas and were not labeled as such during this era or should it be assumed that as long as it is GM/GS = SC?
What defines a "Sound Canvas" is the wave ROM, effects and instruments, and to a lesser extent the type is defined by the audio stage. The RA-30 appears to be a variant of the SC-55, basically an original SC-55 but lacking MT-32 tones and the display (and adding arranger features). Conceptually, this is similar to a SC-50, however the SC-50 is based on the SC-55mkII revision with better polyphony and audio stages.
Listening to some demos, the RA-30 clearly sounds like a Sound Canvas.
There are many, many GM/GS synths that are not even produced by Roland, so that definition is too loose. Conversely, there are many Roland GM/GS synths that are not Sound Canvases (although many are based on them).
Then it's interesting that they didn't market it as a sound canvas device. One thing I noticed is that some midi files don't play correctly on the device in the first one that caught my attention was a legend of Zelda midi that plays perfectly fine on the Roland sound canvas dll built-in to windows9x. On the ra-30 this file just makes a tapping sound where the notes are. So maybe it's not as close to a sound canvas as it would appear? I've found probably a half dozen others that vary from the expectation so maybe they are written with a different synthesizer in mind. All games that I have tried so far have sounded great other than some issues with Doom I am working on . And I am aware of the various synths available at the time like Korg, Yamaha, kurtzweil. I was only able to find Roland sound canvas, the LA stuff and various earlier efforts and devices. Not that I looked too hard 😏
sydres wrote on 2024-09-25, 06:43:Then it's interesting that they didn't market it as a sound canvas device. One thing I noticed is that some midi files don't play correctly on the device in the first one that caught my attention was a legend of Zelda midi that plays perfectly fine on the Roland sound canvas dll built-in to windows9x. On the ra-30 this file just makes a tapping sound where the notes are. So maybe it's not as close to a sound canvas as it would appear? I've found probably a half dozen others that vary from the expectation so maybe they are written with a different synthesizer in mind. All games that I have tried so far have sounded great other than some issues with Doom I am working on . And I am aware of the various synths available at the time like Korg, Yamaha, kurtzweil. I was only able to find Roland sound canvas, the LA stuff and various earlier efforts and devices. Not that I looked too hard 😏
Different markets - the "Sound Canvas" was designed as a PC addon and semi-pro synth, whereas arrangers were designed for musicians.
Can't compare a real Sound Canvas to the Windows softsynth- that one is not a Sound Canvas!
And it depends on the MIDI, it may or may not be designed for the SC-55. As for why it's behaving differently to the Windows softsynth, there are several reasons why this could be the case and too many to troubleshoot. If you upload a few MIDIs that vary, I can take a look.
A good thing to try yourself might be trying some GM soundfonts, assuming you have a modern setup as well as your retro one, and seeing how a third GM soundset handles the MIDI. Some SC-55 soundfonts exist too. And of course there's the SC-55 emulation now as well, discussed elsewhere on this forum.
I actually have a sound blaster 32 ct3670 in the same system with the full 28 mb and probably a half dozen soundfonts including one that's supposed to be audibly the similar to the scc-1 I've also played the file on my windows 10 system. Everything seems to handle the file perfectly in the soundfonts various flavors except the ra-30.
I have an atrocious schedule this week so I'm hoping to get a minute to make some recordings in the next few days.
I also have a Yamaha ymf744 pci card with the xg midi stuff in my athlon xp system and sound blaster live/ audigy 2 if you think more comparisons would help diagnose
First is RA-30
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vSmLxvcbDIc_ … ew?usp=drivesdk
Sound blaster 32 with SCC sound font
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vKBIkrn7A0_8 … ew?usp=drivesdk
And finally with Microsoft GS wavetable
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vBvbq7pg2UFJ … ew?usp=drivesdk
I apologize for the lack of sound balance I had to do this on the fly
Those recordings don't illustrate exactly what's going on with the extreme quietness and lack of right channel. Still, they do show the RA-30 is missing some things. You'll need to upload the MIDI though, as well as explain how you're playing the file.
Ok it's going to be a bit before I can get a better recording. I have a 1/4 inch stereo to 3.5mm plug adapter plugged into the phone jack on the ra30 with a 3.5mm stereo patch cable to my passive mixer. I turn down all other channels then run a patch cable to my microphone port on my windows 10 system. Midi is selected through multimedia settings in win98 control panel. File is played with media player. Recording is made using audacity.
I can hook the ra30 up to my windows 10 system with the Roland USB adapter and take the other variables out.
I am getting somewhere
Original midi
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zYdwruLlKoPK … ew?usp=drivesdk
Messed up recording from ra30
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zt6T_4VnOHnl … ew?usp=drivesdk
File played correctly
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zdNMuLzJ3Epj … ew?usp=drivesdk
Midi file that seems to be the issue that messed up a sysex command or something in other words when I play this file the issues start with the other file. The file doesn't actually play on the ra30
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zf0rDBoYIHWn … ew?usp=drivesdk
Seems like the issue is repeatable and there are several other midi files that cause this. Plus I'm still having issues with multiple notes randomly hanging but that's going to take some thinking
The GPalace MIDI has nothing to it, no SysEx. So there's no issues there. I was about to suggest you reset the RA-30, but sounds like you beat me to it!
There's nothing weird in the "Link to the Past - Overworld" one, so that's no problem either. I would imagine the culprit is either a weird controller or SysEx command. A SysEx that mutes certain channels could be a possible one.
As far as hanging notes goes, I know the Roland RA-50 (MT-32 engine) doesn't have an All Notes Off feature which can cause hanging notes, which could be the same here too.
I appreciate the feedback and help! I am going to continue working on these things. Kinda mad at myself because I passed on sc-8820 for a good price recently. But back to the ra30 I think I will hook it up to my windows 10 system and throw everything at it and see what makes it act up. Using the um-1 to remove the sound card variable.
Good plan! Let me know what the problematic files are if any, and upload them if you can. Recordings aren't as useful. I suspect what's happening is that the Windows softsynth and soundfonts aren't storing anything in memory so they always playback as if reset, whereas once the RA-30 gets the telltale SysEx/MIDI command, it's staying problematic as it does not auto reset (unless a reset is actually sent or the unit is reset), and that's why you're thinking the RA-30 itself is buggy. I think it's just because the software doesn't retain temporary memory. I suspect if you used the software (particularly soundfonts in VirtualMIDISynth) in a DAW or something they'd show the same result.
Since this is the first midi modules I have owned, is this typically how they behave; needing midi reset, sysex or hard reset? I'm guessing it's at least somewhat typical because it only knows what it's being fed until another command shows up and considering how midi is communicated? This might all be a matter of my lack of experience and familiarity with how these devices work! Though I suspect that there may be other differences in the ra30 behavior from say an sc-55 since it's primary use is as an arranger.
Had some time to experiment with the ra30. Using the um-one USB adapter on Windows 10. Using midi player from falcosoft which so far has been excellent, simple interface, and powerful capability. The midi file "A link to the past-overworld" which fails to play on the ra30 using the audician 32 on win98, behaves in a strange way; using power button+others button which puts the module into GS mode fails to play the file . Under windows 10 and midi player the file plays almost inaudibly until I send a GM reset which of course switches the ra30 out of GS, then the file plays perfectly. I thought that GS is backwards compatible?
sydres wrote on 2024-10-04, 17:15:Since this is the first midi modules I have owned, is this typically how they behave; needing midi reset, sysex or hard reset? I'm guessing it's at least somewhat typical because it only knows what it's being fed until another command shows up and considering how midi is communicated? This might all be a matter of my lack of experience and familiarity with how these devices work! Though I suspect that there may be other differences in the ra30 behavior from say an sc-55 since it's primary use is as an arranger.
Yeah, it is. For example, if you send a weird pitch bend on hardware that makes everything sound off key, it'll stay like that unless you change it. Usually software doesn't retain, although it depends on what type, some, especially in a DAW will retain settings.
I definitely don't know about all RA-30 differences from the SC-55, but I'm willing to bet there isn't many, other than not having the arrange features themselves of course.
sydres wrote on 2024-10-06, 04:15:Had some time to experiment with the ra30. Using the um-one USB adapter on Windows 10. Using midi player from falcosoft which so far has been excellent, simple interface, and powerful capability. The midi file "A link to the past-overworld" which fails to play on the ra30 using the audician 32 on win98, behaves in a strange way; using power button+others button which puts the module into GS mode fails to play the file . Under windows 10 and midi player the file plays almost inaudibly until I send a GM reset which of course switches the ra30 out of GS, then the file plays perfectly. I thought that GS is backwards compatible?
That Link to the Past MIDI is extremely basic and should not be a problem for anything to play. Well, so I thought - I had some settings closed off and I didn't see them before! The MIDI author has for some reason made it a GM2 MIDI, so it has bank select commands that do not correspond to GM/GS. This will cause Sound Canvases (other than very early original versions maybe) to basically consider the instrument selection invalid in GS mode. GM mode will then ignore the Bank Select commands so it will just select the underlying instrument patch - 1 of 127/2 of 128 (Piano 2), instead of GM2 Piano 2 specifically.
And btw GS is a superset of GM basically, it has some extra instruments and MIDI commands.
So its sets an invalid bank due to being written for a later version of general midi, but because the RA-30 only knows what to do based on received commands it fails to handle it gracefully. The more time I spend using this thing for games and midi it's beginning to make more sense and is becoming more enjoyable. I can see why games were written to be run using Roland midi, it's has just the right fidelity and pleasant tones, even though I have used midi sound fonts (soundblaster 32, soundblaster live, etc)that are "better" this sounds right.
Yeah, pretty much. It does beg the question why you would bother having a GM2 MIDI that just plays two piano channels, and stops most devices working properly with it, though!
But yeah, the reason Sound Canvases are still a thing is due to how balanced they are, and warm sounding to boot. And also the fact that most General MIDI game music was written for them, so the volume levels are balanced optimally for the SC-55 waveforms/instruments.
It can get fatiguing to hear the Roland piano, strings, drum sound for the 10,000th time though, which is why it's fun to venture out once you're used to it and check other devices and sample sets out. If you like the SC-55, the Korg N1R/NS5R/NX5R are fun devices with similar warm sound but even higher fidelity and slightly improved instrumentation.
