VOGONS


4 will be the chosen ones!

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Reply 20 of 33, by dionb

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Yoghoo wrote on 2024-11-14, 22:21:

[...]

Be careful with that advice. I couldn't get the ps2toserial adapter from Serdashop to work with a couple of KVM's. I had better luck with the ISA card from this topic Another PS/2 Mouse ISA (ISA8) card adapter which works without problem with my KVM's. Also the serial/ps2 ISA card from aliexpress work with my KVM's although it is a bit picky regarding the mouse driver used in DOS.

I've had no trouble with my Aten CS1758 KVM. Admittedly I stopped using them after I got my hands on a Starview Server Sharer Plus that has built-in serial-PS/2 adapting.

Reply 21 of 33, by Yoghoo

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dionb wrote on 2024-11-14, 23:26:
Yoghoo wrote on 2024-11-14, 22:21:

[...]

Be careful with that advice. I couldn't get the ps2toserial adapter from Serdashop to work with a couple of KVM's. I had better luck with the ISA card from this topic Another PS/2 Mouse ISA (ISA8) card adapter which works without problem with my KVM's. Also the serial/ps2 ISA card from aliexpress work with my KVM's although it is a bit picky regarding the mouse driver used in DOS.

I've had no trouble with my Aten CS1758 KVM. Admittedly I stopped using them after I got my hands on a Starview Server Sharer Plus that has built-in serial-PS/2 adapting.

One of my KVM's is also an Aten (CS64A). Couldn't get it working with it unfortunately. Nicer option would be a serial-ps/2 KVM indeed but couldn't find any so gave up on that. 🙁

Reply 22 of 33, by DrAnthony

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Can we clarify that the 486 is a DX50 and not a DX2 50? A DX50 is a much cooler piece historically, and has much better I/O performance thanks to that 50 MHz FSB but they can be really tricky beasts to make stable (which honestly is an activity all of it's own and much less frustrating today when it's effectively a toy than it was back in the day when it was your very expensive primary machine).

Reply 23 of 33, by jjdelalamo

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dionb wrote on 2024-11-14, 12:19:

Agreed on the modern PC. Only change would be to install Windows 11 (no it officially doesn't support it, but with a few simple hacks you can do it) to ensure continuing security updates after Windows 10 support stops in a few months' time.

As for Win98, the Core2Duo is a PCIe system which might limit GPU options. I'd suggest rather using the P4 for Win98 (or find an AGP-based motherboard with Win98 chipset for your Core2Duo). It could also do most WinXP stuff fine, and I'd argue that whatever XP stuff won't run on it will work fine on the modern system.

The Core2duo is not intended for dualboot W98/XP, only for XP. I understand that most games that came out in the W9x era run under WXP without too many problems.

For late DOS I'd go for the P2-350, in fact I'd look into something a bit faster. The last DOS games came out around 1997 and could seriously stress contemporary hardware. I use a P3-500 for it and feel that's about right.

That leaves a single system and there I'd go for the 486, but suggest underclocking it to 33MHz so it's better suited to 1991-1993 speed sensitive stuff.

The “turbo” button of the DX50 disables the chache and slows it down a lot, from my sensations even at the level of a 286. For example I have tested it with Indiana Jones and the last Crusade, at its normal speed it doesn't start, with the turbo button it works without problem.

As for the "management tasks (copying files between partitions and over LAN)" - just use FTP for file transfer, run mTCP with its FTP server on the DOS boxes, an old FTP server on Win98 and run the FTP client (Filezilla FTW) on the modern box to transfer stuff. Dead easy and no need for additional operating systems on the old machines.

Pcs with W98/WXP have TotalCommander installed just for that. I have the problem with the DX50 (and the P133) which has only MSDOS and no network card.

"t also has serial mouse so I can't connect it to the KVM and it forces me to have an extra mouse exclusively for it" - get a serial-PS/2 adapter (like ps2toserial) and you can hook it up to KVM.

I think they don't work too well with KVM switches as mentioned below. I have ordered a Chinese ISA serial/mouse card, let's see how it works.

And if you are getting new old stuff, focus on some better sound options than all those Creative things. The DOS boxes deserve bug-free MIDI for starters.

I'm not too picky with the sound, and less with the music that many times I disable. Besides the idea is to recreate the sound we had in our old pcs, isn't it? 😀

Reply 24 of 33, by jjdelalamo

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SScorpio wrote on 2024-11-14, 19:45:
jjdelalamo wrote on 2024-11-14, 16:14:

According to what this website says, yes it should support the P233 MMX.

https://theretroweb.com/motherboards/s/edom-wintech-mp071b

This forum is treacherous, I was coming with the idea of setting aside two computers and I already have a PIII and a P233MMX on the shopping list.

At least we've been nice and didn't point out that a Sandy or Ivybridge i5 are still dirt cheap and make great XP machines since your Haswell wouldn't be optimal as it maybe missing drivers as Haswell and original Ryzen where when XP support was dropped. 😀

I will not fall into that trap!

Really that PC is going to have the most modern OS it can afford (w10/W11 at this point). For retro OS I already have all the others!

Reply 25 of 33, by jjdelalamo

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Yoghoo wrote on 2024-11-14, 22:21:
dionb wrote on 2024-11-14, 12:19:

"t also has serial mouse so I can't connect it to the KVM and it forces me to have an extra mouse exclusively for it" - get a serial-PS/2 adapter (like ps2toserial) and you can hook it up to KVM.

Be careful with that advice. I couldn't get the ps2toserial adapter from Serdashop to work with a couple of KVM's. I had better luck with the ISA card from this topic Another PS/2 Mouse ISA (ISA8) card adapter which works without problem with my KVM's. Also the serial/ps2 ISA card from aliexpress work with my KVM's although it is a bit picky regarding the mouse driver used in DOS.

I had already read some of your adventures in this forum about mouse adapters and kvm switches.
Thanks for commenting about the ISA card, I just ordered one from China for 13€, let's see how it turns out!

Reply 26 of 33, by jjdelalamo

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chinny22 wrote on 2024-11-14, 23:15:
It is! I started out only wanting a Win9x box, I now have at least 12 setup at any one time. But try not to go crazy, enjoy the […]
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jjdelalamo wrote on 2024-11-14, 16:14:

This forum is treacherous, I was coming with the idea of setting aside two computers and I already have a PIII and a P233MMX on the shopping list.

It is! I started out only wanting a Win9x box, I now have at least 12 setup at any one time.
But try not to go crazy, enjoy the hardware you already have, find the gaps in your setup and then spend your money.
Maybe your games work fine with your existing CPU's, maybe your not planning on external midi device making hanging note bugs a non issue.
But you don't know till you get started!

jjdelalamo wrote on 2024-11-14, 11:28:

I don't know if it would be a good idea to go for a P2 400 or better a P3 or a Super Socket 7 to have a PC that can handle everything for MSDOS. It would be essential to have an ISA slot of course.

As you already have the motherboard, I'd go with with Slot 1 P3.

I actually think the Pentium especially a 200 MMX captures the feel of the end of dos perfectly and would have maybe recommended this over the Slot 1 build given your dos focus.
It's just those last few games like you mentioned and you'll loose a decent Win9x rig.

Likewise the P4 would be perfect if you were more into Win9x gaming but wanted a bit of dos as well, it's capable machine for sure but doesn't suit your dos focus.

Hummm, the board I think is a bit lacking, it only reaches 100Mhz and the voltage regulator at 2.0V, so the highest it could go would be a Pentium III Katmai 550Mhz. I do not know if it would be a significant enough change, it would be better to go directly for a Coppermine Socket370.

I will do some research on prices...

Reply 27 of 33, by jjdelalamo

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DrAnthony wrote on 2024-11-15, 13:12:

Can we clarify that the 486 is a DX50 and not a DX2 50? A DX50 is a much cooler piece historically, and has much better I/O performance thanks to that 50 MHz FSB but they can be really tricky beasts to make stable (which honestly is an activity all of it's own and much less frustrating today when it's effectively a toy than it was back in the day when it was your very expensive primary machine).

Yeah, an original DX50 in all its glory.
I think it should have its place in the aces poker I want to keep active.

Reply 28 of 33, by SScorpio

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jjdelalamo wrote on 2024-11-15, 16:01:

Hummm, the board I think is a bit lacking, it only reaches 100Mhz and the voltage regulator at 2.0V, so the highest it could go would be a Pentium III Katmai 550Mhz. I do not know if it would be a significant enough change, it would be better to go directly for a Coppermine Socket370.

I will do some research on prices...

Figure out what you want to run on the P2/3 system. The MMX Pentium can handle a good chunk of DOS. And there's a good chance the rest could be handled by the P4 system, especially if you can underclock it. I have an Athlon 64 rather than a P4 for my end of Win98 system, and I can turn the multiplier down so it runs at 500Mhz.

Reply 29 of 33, by dionb

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jjdelalamo wrote on 2024-11-15, 15:45:

[...]

The “turbo” button of the DX50 disables the chache and slows it down a lot, from my sensations even at the level of a 286. For example I have tested it with Indiana Jones and the last Crusade, at its normal speed it doesn't start, with the turbo button it works without problem.

The problem isn't the 286-level stuff, but games that need 20-33MHz, things like Wing Commander and Ultima 7. 50MHz is too fast for that stuff, and de-turbo is much too slow.

[...]
Pcs with W98/WXP have TotalCommander installed just for that. I have the problem with the DX50 (and the P133) which has only MSDOS and no network card.

So add a NIC and use mTCP.

Reply 30 of 33, by H3nrik V!

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jjdelalamo wrote on 2024-11-15, 16:01:

Hummm, the board I think is a bit lacking, it only reaches 100Mhz and the voltage regulator at 2.0V, so the highest it could go would be a Pentium III Katmai 550Mhz. I do not know if it would be a significant enough change, it would be better to go directly for a Coppermine Socket370.

I will do some research on prices...

There's also 600 Katmai in 100MHz FSB. I have no idea though if it's crazy priced these days, being the fastest Katmai

If it's dual it's kind of cool ... 😎

--- GA586DX --- P2B-DS --- BP6 ---

Please use the "quote" option if asking questions to what I write - it will really up the chances of me noticing 😀

Reply 31 of 33, by jjdelalamo

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Family grows. I knew this was going to happen...

I just bought ANOTHER retro pc. Still around here (Spain) you can find PCs at good prices from people who sell them as useless old computers. It's a bit of a blind buy because they don't usually put too many technical features in the ad, but for 44€ shipping included I think it's pretty good deal.

Pentium 3 866Mhz (Coppermine?)
128Mb
DFI CA63-SN?? Socket 370 (1 ISA Slot)
AGP Video card, sound and NIC PCI cards
Case, PSU, CDR, DVDR, 3 1/2

Reply 32 of 33, by dionb

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What revision is your P2B?

The CA63 is a decent enough board when it comes to features, but its ApolloPro133 (non-A) is a dog in terms of performance. If that P2B supports Coppermine CPUs (and yes, P3-866EB was only released as Coppermine), eg it's rev 1.12 or higher, it would be worth getting a slocket to put the P3-866EB on the P2B instead. Of course, officially i440BX only runs at 100MHz FSB, but it's common that it runs stable at 133MHz, which would let you run the 866EB at full speed, but even failing that, running it as 650E at 6.5x100MHz would give your P2 system for late DOS a nice boost.

That said, Via chipsets are more flexible in messing around with various clock speeds, so the total bandwidth of speeds available on the CA63 could be higher, even if its peak performance is slower than P2B.

Reply 33 of 33, by jjdelalamo

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dionb wrote on 2024-11-17, 11:29:

What revision is your P2B?

The CA63 is a decent enough board when it comes to features, but its ApolloPro133 (non-A) is a dog in terms of performance. If that P2B supports Coppermine CPUs (and yes, P3-866EB was only released as Coppermine), eg it's rev 1.12 or higher, it would be worth getting a slocket to put the P3-866EB on the P2B instead. Of course, officially i440BX only runs at 100MHz FSB, but it's common that it runs stable at 133MHz, which would let you run the 866EB at full speed, but even failing that, running it as 650E at 6.5x100MHz would give your P2 system for late DOS a nice boost.

That said, Via chipsets are more flexible in messing around with various clock speeds, so the total bandwidth of speeds available on the CA63 could be higher, even if its peak performance is slower than P2B.

No luck in this case, as far as I can see it is Asus P2B rev 1.04.

In any case I'm not looking for the best possible performance either. In fact now I have to decide whether to keep the PII 350Mhz or replace it with this PIII 866Mhz, which is obviously MUCH faster than the PII.

My choice so far is:

  • 486DX50 for games from the golden era of MSDOS (1990-1995).
  • P2 350Mhz / P3 833Mhz for the latest MSDOS games (1995-1997+)
  • Core2Duo E8400 for Win9x and WinXP.
  • i5 4460 for Win10/Win11 (dosbox and 8, 16, 32 bits emulators)

That for the moment leaves out Pentium 133MMX, Pentium 4 3Ghz, and we'll see if Pentium2 or Pentium 3.