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Getting old software/games running on older hardware.

Re: How to Successfully use Windows 98 on PCI-Express Systems

Postby truemaster » 2017-5-11 @ 21:55

i found chipset drivers not official tho. it seems a lot of people write drivers fo ensure compatibility with modern hardware. the only real patch is the one that enables safe mode. the himemx.exe from freedos is actually a memory manager that i use to lower the amount of ram to a value that win98 can work 512 mb to be precise. thats not a patch at least not hardcore one like the ones from r.loew. btw you were right about those hardcore patches they break things, in my case it breaks audio complete, bad sound so i ditch them. i am positive that everything regarding 3d games will work once i have a compatible gpu
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Re: How to Successfully use Windows 98 on PCI-Express Systems

Postby kithylin » 2017-5-11 @ 21:59

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Re: How to Successfully use Windows 98 on PCI-Express Systems

Postby 95DosBox » 2017-5-23 @ 09:57

kithylin wrote:
Nahuel wrote:thanks for the quick reply. my goal is to use 3 systems on this machine, w98, xp and 7, thats why i needed core 2 duo support (that and the low consumption), about the id, its the same if i get it on w7?


Should be yes. I just suggested XP as normally systems running C2D chips use Win98 / XP. I should repair mine and get my win98 system up and running tonight, I might do that. But probably tomorrow at this point.

So I did buy the nvidia FX-5500 1GB G71 card for my win98 PCIE system.. but the seller that sold it to me just took one of those manilla cardboard "express letter" envelopes, and shoved it in there and taped the ends together. No padding, no static bag, nothing else. Physically it didn't get -too- banged up in shipment. But I took it out and stuck it in my AMD AM3 test computer just to see if it worked at all.


I liked your thread I made this account. :)

So far you haven't tested any GeForce 8 series graphics cards for Windows 98?

Have you thought about testing the GeForce 7950 GX2? This would be the high end limit of the 7 series.

As far as those graphics shown that is a sign the card overheated in my opinion. It may eventually freeze/crash or die completely. Usually the cause is the fan getting stuck and overheating the GPU.

I would rather choose a passive heatsink graphics card of the 7 series if you are going to want reliability.

kithylin wrote:
tincup wrote:So the card would beef up the XP component (GTX SLI) but leave W98 somewhat diminished - a less interesting proposal indeed - especially considering the potential downside of SLI to begin with. BTW I wasn't aware of the SLI limitation in W98 - really hadn't thought it through to be honest. I'm used to V2 SLI and "assumed". Never assume haha... I'll stick with the 7900GTX - great card and impressive HSF cooling..


A friend of mine alerted me speaking of voodoo2's that using voodoo2's with a fast CPU is a "BIG NO NO" and they can actually overheat to the point of their chips falling off the PCB and de-soldering. Supposedly they never thought to program any limitations in to the cards because at the time of their creation, CPU's were only like, Pentium and Pentium-II And K6-III era stuff, maybe early Pentium-II's. Supposedly something about as cpu speed gets faster it makes the VSA-100 chips work faster. So no voodoo2 SLI for my planned 4ghz Win98se system. I might consider it if I could buy a lot of copper heatsinks and mount a fan over the board. I've noticed in the past after a few hours of gaming my single voodoo2 with just my 2.5 ghz AthlonXP chip gets so hot I can barely touch it with my fingers for more than a few seconds, in Win98se.

I do believe Voodoo2 SLI does work 100% natively in win98se however. It's supposedly just nvidia's SLI that does not. Odd how that works.


This doesn't make any sense. What kind of Voodoo2 cards are these that are overheating? Legacy PCI or ISA?

Are you sure it isn't the CPU itself creating higher internal heat causing the Voodoo2 cards to heat up inside along with it?

agent_x007 wrote:Yes, I know I'm using 1/2 of GPU and 1/2 of CPU :)
BUT using 1/2 of CPU = less heat, so I can cool this with Intel BOX cooler (the full height one).
GPU is a "I have it so why not" kind of deal. I do own 7900 GTX but 7900 GX2 is just... more fun.

As to Windows 98 Second Edition modifications :
I didn't used a modified installer CD, plain Win 98 SE PL version of Windows (booted from Win98 floppy boot disk).
Installation went without problems (because I installed only 512MB of RAM first).
SSD was formatted to FAT32 on win 7, and was seen by Win 98 even in RAID mode.
Files were copied, win installation went forward.
After first boot I installed HimemX patch (along with Config.sys/System.ini modifications), and unofficial Win 98 SE 2.1b PL service pack (it added pendrive USB support, installed win updates).
After those, 2x2GB worked like it should.
Then came the usual drivers for MB, sound card, LAN, etc. (btw. I'm using Audigy 2 ZS in this PC [with VxD driver], forgot about that and 1Gbit/s PCI D-Link LAN [Win98 compatible] in full spec listed earlier ;)).
Sidenote : I had to disable both onboard sound and LAN, to avoid hardware adress conflicts.
GPU driver (82.69) needed manual instalation.

After drivers, I installed IE 6.0, .NET 2.0, Java, KernelEX, dxwebsetup (offline version), the works.

^Is all of the above a "heavy modification of win98 core" ?

PS. Internet does work on this machine :)
Thanks to k-meleon 1.6.0 beta.
Opera and IE keep crashing within 20 sec :( (second, not so OK working part - k-meleon works fine).


What did you mean by the "PL" from plain Win 98 SE PL version of Windows.

Also what did you mean by HimemX patch, did you have specific settings for the command line? If so what are they?

(along with Config.sys/System.ini modifications
Can you include what is altered/modified in your System.Ini.

I'm not sure what you needed in your Config.Sys but you can include that as well.

I also have a Audigy 2 ZS, what did you mean by [with VxD driver]?
Is this some customized driver for 98 you have?

I don't think this sound card normally supports 98 right?

kithylin wrote:
agent_x007 wrote:^True, thats why I added "experimental PC", before listing specs.

It's waaay beyond what Win98 machine should (in theory) look like.
I done this to show what can be done (and be stable enough), but I do not recommend using this as daily Win98 machine.

EDIT : I didn't try that. But I still have it assembled and ready to go.
One problem - I got work, and can't tinker with it too much other than in weekends (not enough time...).


Ahh yeah see I'm after the other goal: I want a win98se system that can both be waaaay crazy fast, but still 100% functional as a daily driver with no hard "blue screen" crashes ever, and no program crashes either, no matter what program I run on it. That's my ultimate goal.

I think I can achieve that with this i945p platform and some day get Intel Core2Duo x6800 processor and see if I can't hit 4.5 - 4.8 ghz, and nvidia 7900 GTX, or maybe FX-5500 quadro. And hopefully should be 100% daily-driver stable too. Some day.


From experience even during the P4 days. Windows 98 was never entirely stable. It worked until it ran out of memory or a buggy driver or program it didn't like. Once it encounters a snag it says I give up and crashes with BSOD. The only truly stable Windows that I compared it to was Windows 2000. I noticed a limitation of how many Internet Explorer windows I could have open in 98. Tried the same exact thing in Windows 2000 and it kept going and going. And stability was like maybe 1 week on 98 if lucky but 2000 could go a month or longer.

I would never use 98 as a daily driver if you mean browsing the internet. I suggest you go to XP for that purpose since it is the most stable of the three even on modern day computers. 98 would be only great for legacy software which includes 95, 3.1, and pure DOS.

Oerg866 wrote:Hello.
It's not hard. Just requires patience :)

There's plenty of things to help. I have the RAM Patch and the SATA patch from R. Loew. On top of that you really should install the unofficial 98SE service pack.

BTW: For network drivers you can just use the NDIS2 drivers still provided by all major manufacturers for legacy reasons.

My favourite ones are those with a genuine OPL3 in the silicon (i.e. YMF 7xx and a couple of aztech cards, maybe few others). I'm quite liking the fact that you can get a nice MIDI Softsynth alongside running DOS games.

Right now I've got it running on a Z97 platform without major issues ;)

First off, I have heard from friends that there exists somewhere on the internet a very very heavily modified windows 98 install. Said install will work all the way up to I7 cpu's, provide rudimentary multi-core support, and even support large ram up to 3.5 GB (32-Bit Limit) and all sorts of newer video cards.


I was going to say "that would be mine" (you can PM me for info) but rudimentary multi-core support... nope. It doesn't exist and it will never exist. The closest thing that exists is a multi core SDK where you have to write the software and include those libs to use multiple threads/CPUs/cores.


Hmm I could test this on a Skylake later which is one step above your chipset.

Why did you need the SATA patch? What hard drive size are you using? I'd stick with 128GB or less which shouldn't have any issues.

Which motherboard are you using? I doubt any Z97 could use the proper sound card for legacy DOS support. Most only have PCIe slots killing off the old legacy PCI.

vetz wrote:
kithylin wrote:EDIT: I loathe the idea.. but I may have to pay for his software.. which should be a free community patch for the retro community. Charging for that is ludicrous and laughable... at least $20 per patch is retarded too. Yep. I might end up getting the greater than 512MB patch too just because it would enable me to use some better ram for this project and overclock it further.

I completely agree with you. It's ransome for that price and completely ridicious, and also the reason why I refuse to buy any patches even though I could use them.


98 is a dying OS or should I say it's dead except for the very very very few that are lurking about here that even have the know how to get this working especially on modern computers instead of the older ones which are mostly recycled.

kithylin wrote:
vetz wrote:
kithylin wrote:EDIT: I loathe the idea.. but I may have to pay for his software.. which should be a free community patch for the retro community. Charging for that is ludicrous and laughable... at least $20 per patch is retarded too. Yep. I might end up getting the greater than 512MB patch too just because it would enable me to use some better ram for this project and overclock it further.

I completely agree with you. It's ransome for that price and completely ridicious, and also the reason why I refuse to buy any patches even though I could use them.


Does anyone know of any i945p motherboards that support wolfdale chips?


I'm curious what are your USB controller devices for your motherboard? And the other ones you've tested for USB ports what are those and are those the built in ones or 3rd party USB card?

I have a PCI USB card from VIA coming in the snail mail so I might test that to see if it resolves the USB mouse issue because it may be the USB issue is caused by the USB controllers on the motherboard. Otherwise Windows 98 seems to operate fine especially with the Ram patch.

What makes you think or causes you to think that your motherboard with the i945 is the end of the road to run Windows 98? All you need to focus on is the Graphics card, Sound card, USB card, and Network card. The other devices with the ? aren't necessary to install on modern chipsets and won't affect 98SE from being usable.

Nahuel wrote:well, after nearly 3 months i finally got *ALMOST* all the pieces i need for a build, but im having problems with 1 thing on my p5ld2-se, cant get the ide controllers to work.This is the list of pieces i have for a w98, XP and 7 build with pcie:

core2duo e6700 (for now until i get enough money for a x6800)
mother asus p5ld2-se
1 stick 512mb ddr2 800 (for windows 98 setup, then ill limit with himemx) and 4 sticks of ocz 1gb ddr2 800 platinum (for xp and 7)
1 sata 80gb and 1 250gb hdd
2 geforce 6800 ultra and 2 6800 gs (only 1 for the build of course)
no sound card for now, maybe ill get a 5.1live or audigy zs2


I also have an Audigy ZS2 but I don't think it had come with 98 drivers but the Audigy 1 did. Are you modifying or getting your 98 drivers from somewhere? I might use this card for testing 98 games.

Also what is your himemx command line syntax you are using to limit your Ram from 98?
What other win.ini, system.ini, or other file modifications have you done?

kithylin wrote:I've found on mine that the hard drives work fine in XP With Compatible mode enabled for IDE drives. I would suggest if you want compatibility for windows XP you just forget SATA (even though this board has it) and just go with straight IDE drives. You'll have a lot less of a headache getting both OS's to work. I'd also suggest different physical drives for each OS. Trying to dual-boot XP and Win9x on the same hard drive is possible but it screws up a lot of things.


Actually you can install it to the same drive and even same partition.

But if I were setting this up it is recommended you setup on 1 drive as follows:
C: for 98SE
D: for XP

if you were to install multiple copies of 98SE which is possible on different partitions it will only boot to the last one from the msdos.sys setting and also when adding new drives it bumps the drive letters.
For example if Hard drive 1 had 3 partitions it would show up as this in a single drive setup.
C:
D:
E:

Once you add Drive 2 to the bunch and let's say it had 3 partitions it would cause this chaos:

C: - D1 P1
D: - D2 P1
E: - D1 P2
F: - D1 P3
G: - D2 P2
H: - D2 P3

Add a 3rd or fourth hard drive which was possible on most motherboards with dual IDE controllers which each could hook up a master and slave it gets even more complex but follows the same pattern of the first partition hogs the next letter first.

kithylin wrote:
truemaster wrote:hello after a long of time having 2 pcs one for everyday work and one retro pc for old games mainly dos. i decide (for fun first) to try and unify the things one pc for them all and i did it for most things
mobo gigabyte z97m d3h (intel 9 series chipset)
ram ddr3 8gb 2x4 1600mhz with xmp
gpu msi 750ti ocv1 gddr5 2gb
cpu 15 4690 3.5
for me the ide compatibility didnt work the installation cd fails to detect cdrom drive. so i copy the cd files in the root of my secondary sata hdd and i use the cd for getting dos commands only. i create the windows folder put in there the himemx.exe from freedos rename it to himem.exe and create a config.sys with this command device=c:\windows\himem.exe /max=393216 and i successful install win98se without any errors!!!. i also needed to run setup with the /p i parameter in order to have all my devices listed in device manager, without the /p i parameter i coudnt see usb and pci devices (but can be install manually in the add hardware wizard) for sound card, i have a soundblaster live ct4830 using the wdm driver the sound is working ok. for vga there are no drivers for that card so only the universal vbe just to have some more resolution on desktop. in the autoexec.bat this command c:\drv\nolfb.com (for dos games not to have flickering screen) and a patch that let me access safe mode. the built is working ok i can have my wired xbox360 controller working too, and all my dos games working perfect. now is there any way for this gpu to work? even as 128mb 6000 series card??
the only issue but thank god is small and i found solution instantly is that any time i click the command.com or an exe of a dos game, the command.com or the dos game make my computer freeze after a while it beep the computer (one beep) and then the command.com or the dos game starts without further problems. the only solution found is to create a shortcut and select run in full screen in this case the dos game of the command.com starts instantly. hope this helps anyone that intends to install win98se on newer hardware


Yeah uhm.. Thanks for sharing your information but... kinda the entire point of this thread was finding hardware that worked natively without any "fixes".. which I think I did. Win98 generally won't work correctly on new systems like that. Even then I have OpenGL issues with the newer system I had it working on for some odd reason (OpenGL no work).


You mention OpenGL doesn't work. Are you suggesting that anything above i945 chipset OpenGL fails on any nVidia video card? Why not try an Ati/AMD version to see if it works?


Hmmm interesting:
c:\windows\himem.exe /max=393216
This would seem to at least limit himem to 384KB if that is in bytes. I'm not sure how that would fix any 98SE memory problem.

How large is your himemx Ramdrive? What is your command line syntax?

kithylin wrote:
truemaster wrote:yeah youre right. its too unsupported hardware near as miracle that it works. but if someone needs a native dos enviroment this is a good solution. my first attempt was to install ms-dos but the sb16 emulation driver didnt like my mobo. (it expects different communication between sb and mobo) so this is the solution for dos gaming with sound on such hardware. even if it is a little absolute - incompatible in some terms


Yep that's another issue. Newer chipsets dropped the pci communications necessary for old sound cards to work too. So after a certain point you lose everything for Win98se compatibility. And video cards maybe should work but I'm having issues with 6800 ultra under Win98se.


What are you talking about even a Z77 quadcore has no issue? I've tested Sound Blaster emulation under DOS using a SB Live which are found everywhere very cheap. But true DOS Sound Blaster emulation you need an ISA slot. MIDI is usually lost when going to PCI sound cards which is a side effect since the midi instruments mapping don't match. But if you're using Windows 95 and up it should work fine for audio. And I believe there are drivers up to Windows 7 for this card in case.

truemaster wrote:i need to ask you something. my mobo have 2 pcie slots, in the bios there is an option to enable the one or the other slot. if i put a win98 compatible card will the card work ok without the chipset drivers? since there are not official or unofficial for intel 9 series chipset

Graphic cards don't need chipset drivers. They just work as long as you have the proper graphics driver for that OS.

kithylin wrote:
truemaster wrote:i need to ask you something. my mobo have 2 pcie slots, in the bios there is an option to enable the one or the other slot. if i put a win98 compatible card will the card work ok without the chipset drivers? since there are not official or unofficial for intel 9 series chipset


I honestly don't know. And the chipset drivers I found -ARE- the official ones for the 9 series chipset for win98. They were actually posted on the Intel website for a few months then later pulled the next year. I don't know the exact dates but they are actual Intel drivers. I found em through an archived version of the Intel download site after I found some forum postings (also archived) that gave me the correct dates to look for and found it there. I don't remember what I had searched for at the time, I made this thread a long time ago now.

Anyway.. some people have reported some video cards working in Win98se without chipset drivers.. but no one has come back and said 100% "Yes this works with all games perfectly stable without crashing." for using gpu's in win98 without chipset drivers. So I don't know if it will work well for you for gaming or not.

I made a thread over here: https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=52171 that outlines how to modify driver inf files to load in video cards not actually in the drivers. That might help you.. and if you try it, report back to us if it works and what games you've tried.. and try OpenGL-Based games and Direct3D games please.. (Quake3's an OpenGL Game).


Thanks to your PCIe graphics card mod gives me an idea for future testing starting with the 6000 series for compatibility but looking forward to 7000 series and up if possible.

Again I'm curious if you've tried modding the graphics driver for the GeForce 8 series and what results have you had? It's great you got the 7 series to function but are you modifying anything else besides the Hardware IDs in the .ini file?

truemaster wrote:success win 98se on intel 9 series chipset (2014 motherboard)

What are you issues with the USB mouse on the desktop? Does it move around erratic and uncontrollable. What USB controller are you using?

truemaster wrote:i found chipset drivers not official tho. it seems a lot of people write drivers fo ensure compatibility with modern hardware. the only real patch is the one that enables safe mode. the himemx.exe from freedos is actually a memory manager that i use to lower the amount of ram to a value that win98 can work 512 mb to be precise. thats not a patch at least not hardcore one like the ones from r.loew. btw you were right about those hardcore patches they break things, in my case it breaks audio complete, bad sound so i ditch them. i am positive that everything regarding 3d games will work once i have a compatible gpu


Can you tell me what chipset drivers you have and which you installed? I might have to sample yours for Skylake test to see if it works or not.

But from what I can remember I don't think Chipset drivers are necessary for a GPU to operate nor a sound card from previous experience. I'm even installing XP on a Skylake and I don't install the Chipset drivers and it functions so I'm confused why you believe Chipset drivers are affecting your 98 devices from functioning.

Did you have any luck getting an Ati/AMD graphics card with 98 drivers to work on your Z97?

Which sound card are you using for your tests?

kithylin wrote:
tincup wrote:Yes! it can be done as you've demonstrated. First step is an early PCIe gen motherboard with chipset drivers that support W9x. A number of fairly easily sourced and not too expensive s775 based mobos to chose from allow P4/C2D cpu options. Next the modded v9291 nVidia drivers for 7x cards - I run a 7900GTX in this case. It's 512 VRAM triggers the W98 ram limit right off the bat regardless of how much system ram in use use - so I yielded to the versitile RLOWE memory patch - and loaded on ram. 2gb system ram - nuts for 98 but its an XP dual boot box so it make sense.

A "Super98" system is cool since you can run W98 games natively at silly resolutions, and as some Glide Wrappers work in W98 also run glide games at silly resolutions too. All under native W98 with no need for fussy XP/W7 workarounds etc... a fun project!


This is an interesting thing I was unaware of... does the.. video card's video ram, trigger the 512MB ram limit in win98se? I was considering trying a 1GB video ram video card in 98se next, but may not now. I don't understand why it would though, it's not system RAM and should have nothing to do with anything to do with the OS's system ram limitation of 512MB

Also like I said earlier in the post I try to avoid any sort of "modification" to 98se it's self.. personally. That includes "patches" or things that modify it's maximum ram. So I'm trying to steer away from those sorts of things in this thread if at all possible. This is more about "living within the initial confines of the thing" sort of.


The graphics card hogs some of the system memory. So if you had 512MB of system memory and a 256MB graphics card I believe it reserves 256MB for the graphics leaving you with 256MB for the system memory. I'm not 100% but I believe 512MB and 1GB graphic cards might work and that was the limit of the 98 era graphics cards then that I've seen. I don't think 2GB graphics cards for Windows 98 existed but don't quote me on that.
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Re: How to Successfully use Windows 98 on PCI-Express Systems

Postby truemaster » 2017-5-23 @ 16:25

success my instalation working. today i receive my 6800 gs games so far tomb raider 1 (with glidos) 2 3 and chronicles tomb raider 4 give problems but maybe its the game need for speed underground 2 also working. i will continue the tests and othes games. to dos95 google win98 unofficial suport site. maybe chipset drivers have nothing to do with performance or stability but its always welcome.
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Re: How to Successfully use Windows 98 on PCI-Express Systems

Postby 95DosBox » 2017-5-23 @ 18:24

Truemaster
What are you using for the Sound Card?

Also you are using a 6800 GS PCIe correct?
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Re: How to Successfully use Windows 98 on PCI-Express Systems

Postby truemaster » 2017-5-23 @ 18:44

soundblaster live ct4830 for audio. the gpu is the gainward 6800 gs pci-e 512 mb ram
quake 4 added to list 2 hours gameplay at max settings without a problem i thing its opengl one
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Re: How to Successfully use Windows 98 on PCI-Express Systems

Postby 95DosBox » 2017-5-23 @ 18:51

Hmmm... Try Elite Force 1 it has 98SE support. It uses the Quake 3 Engine. This game also works on XP and 2000.

Download the Demo here.
https://www.fileplanet.com/46986/40000/ ... Force-Demo

Does your graphics card require a fan to cool down? Any plans on trying a GeForce 7 series or 8 series PCIe with 512MB or 1GB VRAM?
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Re: How to Successfully use Windows 98 on PCI-Express Systems

Postby truemaster » 2017-5-23 @ 18:55

the gpu has fan and it needs additional power from psu. 98 has a limit to 256mb video ram so 256 of my gpu its not usable but its running quake 4 at max so its cool
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Re: How to Successfully use Windows 98 on PCI-Express Systems

Postby kithylin » 2017-5-23 @ 19:38

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Re: How to Successfully use Windows 98 on PCI-Express Systems

Postby vetz » 2017-5-23 @ 20:23

Windows98 has a maximum of 512MB of physical ram. This thread is not for discussing how to get around that. Install 512MB ram and use Win98 correctly. Patches are not necessary for any reason if the system is designed correctly.


The 512MB limit is due to Virtual Cache bug, which is easily fixed, the practical limit is 1GB since Win98 is not designed to handle more than 1GB. Theoretical limit is 4GB (in practice 3.2gb due to 32bit operating system). You can have more than 1GB installed in your computer for other operating systems, but Win98 will only address 1GB if you use the Microsoft workarounds.
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Re: How to Successfully use Windows 98 on PCI-Express Systems

Postby kithylin » 2017-5-23 @ 20:55

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Re: How to Successfully use Windows 98 on PCI-Express Systems

Postby vetz » 2017-5-23 @ 21:01

I've been running my Win98 440BX system with 1GB memory for years, never had any issues with that. Adding one or two lines to a .ini file I will not say is highly weird. Ofc, if you wanna set it and forget it, and don't do anything, then 512MB is the number. I personally think 1GB addressed is the limit, as that is what MS made official support tickets for.
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Re: How to Successfully use Windows 98 on PCI-Express Systems

Postby kithylin » 2017-5-23 @ 21:03

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Re: How to Successfully use Windows 98 on PCI-Express Systems

Postby 95DosBox » 2017-5-23 @ 23:27

kithylin wrote:
vetz wrote:
Windows98 has a maximum of 512MB of physical ram. This thread is not for discussing how to get around that. Install 512MB ram and use Win98 correctly. Patches are not necessary for any reason if the system is designed correctly.


The 512MB limit is due to Virtual Cache bug, which is easily fixed, the practical limit is 1GB since Win98 is not designed to handle more than 1GB. Theoretical limit is 4GB (in practice 3.2gb due to 32bit operating system). You can have more than 1GB installed in your computer for other operating systems, but Win98 will only address 1GB if you use the Microsoft workarounds.


Yes in my experience that makes Win98 -TERRIBLY UNSTABLE-. For those of us that want 100% stable win98 experience we just use 512MB ram like it's meant to be. Then there's no dicking around with patches and all sorts of weirdness. Using more than 512MB ram and trying to "make it work" is likely why most folks think win98se is unstable.. crashing all the time, bluescreens, etc.


Both Kithylin and Vetz made good points. Although personally I never used that memory program you mentioned to maintain stability but that would be considered a mod in a sense since you are adding a program to create stability.

But on the P4 512MB works install no problem. It's when you hit the next threshold since my P4 MB only had two memory slots I couldn't fine tune the increments to target the best threshold. I just recently resurrected it last night by my side and successfully made it completely passive (fanless). PSU, Graphics card, CPU as well. No fans. No chance of overheating or dead dust filled fan noise maker. A system ini edit is not as invasive as adding a program to the 98 install which shows up under add/remove programs and modifies the system registry. Just put a 512MB and a 256MB and it shouldn't be an issue. I think maybe that himemx can artificially limit some of the extra RAM above 768MB so 98SE doesn't freak out. By using the extra memory as a Ramdrive which I think that's what I did back in the day made it more useful.

But true stability I think 256MB or 512MB would be the best amount of RAM to install where stability isn't compromised. Using my P4 rig today I would probably keep this as a 98 / DOS purist machine since I've mastered the best XP system on modern technology. As you increase the memory and go higher and higher that's when you start getting problems in 98.

However in the past I do recall hooking up the P4 rig with just 512MB install to completion, image my OS. Then go modify the system.ini with one line to adjust before installing the 1GB memory module and booting. Later you just back up that file and copy it to the windows directory in the future. Or if you are DOS inclined just use EDIT the old school way after it copies the 98 installation files and do F8 to bypass to DOS on the first reboot.
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Re: How to Successfully use Windows 98 on PCI-Express Systems

Postby kithylin » 2017-5-23 @ 23:31

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Re: How to Successfully use Windows 98 on PCI-Express Systems

Postby 95DosBox » 2017-5-23 @ 23:56

kithylin wrote:Guys and gals.. please.. you're all getting -WAY- off topic for this thread. I said in the beginning and I've repeated it multiple times. If you want to "Patch" and figure out how to run Win98 on "Crazy systems" like i7 sockets and later, then you need to make a new thread to discuss "modified windows 98 installs" because yes, it's entirely possible to run Win98 all the way up to haswell systems. But that's -extremely- heavy mods to the win98 systems, files, and even have to patch and modify the kernel and all of that nonsense.

nvidia GeForce 8000 series and later are -NOT- supported on "Vanilla" Windows 98. It's not possible. Even the 7000 series is "maybe possible" with some sort of hacked and modified drivers. But 8000 series is definitely not possible at all.

95DosBox wrote:This doesn't make any sense. What kind of Voodoo2 cards are these that are overheating? Legacy PCI or ISA?

It makes perfect sense. The Voodoo2 is -NOT- a "video card" it is a "3D Accelerator" board. As such it was never programmed with any "Limitations" in mind because when it was created, it as assumed that by the time people were using later video cards, the voodoo2 would be so obsolete no one would be using it. As a side-effect, the faster your CPU is, the faster the voodoo2 will run. There literally is no limit at all. And the faster the voodoo2 runs, the hotter it gets. What I'm talking about is like connecting a Voodoo2 to a 5ghz Pentium4 machine = bad idea. Or connecting it to a I7-2600K @ 4.6 ghz in XP for example also bad.



Just to answer the mod question. Actually the DDR3 I used was 512MB on the Ivy Bridge to install 98. The installation went without a hitch. Now there might have been an instance where it froze and required a reboot but the installation process continued without problems after. Because I knew there was an issue hovering around 1GB I hunted down for a 512MB DDR3 back then to see if I could build an all in one 98/XP rig. After the successful 98 install you could then pop in the 1GB on the next reboot. I think the problem only occurs if you try installing with 1GB memory from the start which causes the BSOD. Now since it has been nearly a decade or more I can't recall if I had to modify the system.ini entry at all before rebooting with 1GB but like I said when I get a chance to do all memory incremental 98 test installs I'll have a confirmed limit.

Regarding the Voodoo 2. I can't recall which Voodoo I obtained it could be Voodoo 1, 2, or 3 off eBay. I had postponed testing the P4 rig for several years but I planned I testing this on an Ivy Bridge but never had the time so I haven't had a chance to counter this clock heating issue on yet. However I would probably end up testing it first on the P4 1.4GHz rig for stability before testing it in a faster system to get used to how it works when it should work. I do have a P3 rig that I abandoned but that one could adjust the CPU multiplier down from 700 Mhz to 100MHz if I wanted to slow it down in the BIOS and not require some DOS TSR program to do it. I never messed with the Voodoos back in the day even though I saw these stocked at Fry's shelves constantly and the SLI ones. Back then I wasn't too into Windows 95/98 games because they constantly crashed compared to DOS games of that time period so I wasn't too found of them as they weren't designed as great as the classics were. Also most required CDs and I liked running software off the hard drive which usually required cracking it but also having a hard drive large enough to house the CD. I remember games like Warcraft 1 and 2 this was a requirement to avoid having a CD drive hooked up constantly. Even the Virtual CD emulation software was a way around it during the Starcraft Broodwar days when hard drives started getting big enough. Anyhow getting back on point.

<<<And the nvidia GeForce 8000 series and later are -NOT- supported on "Vanilla" Windows 98. It's not possible. Even the 7000 series is "maybe possible" with some sort of hacked and modified drivers. But 8000 series is definitely not possible at all.>>>

Well from an earlier comment I think you mentioned you bought a 7000 model for testing PCIe for 98. How did that turn out. I know one of the first 7000 buys came fried? Did you end up getting a replacement to test and were those based off of modifying just the original nVidia ini file and adding the Graphics Card Hardware ID yourself or did you have to get specially modded graphic drivers done by someone that worked with 7000 series and then adding your Hardware ID into it that was missing?

As for the 8000 Series have you tried to attempt the same thing for any of those cards? Or are you stating you don't think it would work but there's a chance it might since you haven't tested / confirmed it doesn't?
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Re: How to Successfully use Windows 98 on PCI-Express Systems

Postby kithylin » 2017-5-24 @ 02:11

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Re: How to Successfully use Windows 98 on PCI-Express Systems

Postby 95DosBox » 2017-5-25 @ 02:01

Thanks for confirming. So the reason you haven't been able to test is due to every card you received was damaged or non functional. Bummer. I do recommend hunting down an nVidia 7000 model that is passive / fanless. At least you are guaranteed a higher chance of functionality. Most of the Ebay ones are from owners who know they are fried. So maybe I will hunt down a 7000 nVidia for a test later after I confirm the 6000 nVidia PCIe works on my P4, Z77, and then Z170 just to see if it functions properly. Afterwards I may test an 8000 series model just to see if it works. Also regarding XP the cut off point was the GTX 900 series. GTX 1000 series stopped XP support and even driver modding didn't work so going by that the 8000 could most likely not work as you stated.

As for packaging sometimes it is best if you win the auction or if it is BIN you message the seller how much extra would it be to package the card in anti-static bag and placed in a sturdy box with some bubblewrap or foam protection. Sometime they will do it for you to make you happy. :) But since you mentioned "bump gate" which sounds really bad I think maybe if a fanless model exists on the lower end of the performance spectrum it might work. You only want to confirm if the 7000 series works or not. Going toward the high end enthusiast spectrum those have higher failure rates cause they are get hotter and those fans tend to be used till they are stuck or dead. Since I'll be investigating into modding some ATI ones down the road just to see if modding the driver can extend support and they may not have this "bump gate" issue. But yeah buying these graphics cards are costly. I bought quite a few myself going back to 2010 for the P4 retro that I didn't have time to tap into till recently bringing it back and converting it into a passive system. Unfortunately this P4 only supports AGP and has ISA and PCI slots. So I will only be testing AGP or PCI in the P4. Will reserve the PCIe models for the hybrid AGP/PCIe motherboard and Z77 and Z170 modern computer tests. I think I might have bought some 7000 model nVidia passives during that time frame so I'll have to hunt them down. I targeted the ones that had VGA and Composite Video output. I don't really like to deal with the DVI ports. I think I originally bought those for Hackintosh purposes which I never got to doing and now seems like a mixed blessing if I find them. :)
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Re: How to Successfully use Windows 98 on PCI-Express Systems

Postby truemaster » 2017-5-25 @ 08:10

about the 1gb memory, it give problems i can confirm that. the windows boot but some of my games crashing after a while and i need to make a hard reset.
768 mb its the golden amount. note that i havent edit any ini file, i use the unofficial sp3. and because i use my primary pc that has 8gb of ram, i use the himemx from freedos to lower the available memory to 768 mb. 768 mb plays ok without any crashes and the quake 4 seems to benefit for 768 since my first attempt was a 512 machine
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Re: How to Successfully use Windows 98 on PCI-Express Systems

Postby 95DosBox » 2017-5-25 @ 18:05

truemaster wrote:about the 1gb memory, it give problems i can confirm that. the windows boot but some of my games crashing after a while and i need to make a hard reset.
768 mb its the golden amount. note that i havent edit any ini file, i use the unofficial sp3. and because i use my primary pc that has 8gb of ram, i use the himemx from freedos to lower the available memory to 768 mb. 768 mb plays ok without any crashes and the quake 4 seems to benefit for 768 since my first attempt was a 512 machine


How about trying 98FE and 98SE non service packs for both if you have those for testing the 768MB.
If you have three memory slots you could try 512+256+64 = 832MB, and if that works try 512+256+128=896MB. This would be the max possible if 1GB truly is the dead zone.

Also did you try 512MB installed till 98 finishes installation and to the first final desktop state? Then shutdown, swap the 512MB with the 1GB and turn it on and see if it crashes before getting to the desktop?

Oh you're using above a P4 from the sound of it 8GB? Can you post the himemx from freedos settings you used if that's all it took to limit the RAM?

When you say Quake 4 benefited from the 768MB in what way? What graphics card are you using?
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