kithylin wrote:Nahuel wrote:thanks for the quick reply. my goal is to use 3 systems on this machine, w98, xp and 7, thats why i needed core 2 duo support (that and the low consumption), about the id, its the same if i get it on w7?
Should be yes. I just suggested XP as normally systems running C2D chips use Win98 / XP. I should repair mine and get my win98 system up and running tonight, I might do that. But probably tomorrow at this point.
So I did buy the nvidia FX-5500 1GB G71 card for my win98 PCIE system.. but the seller that sold it to me just took one of those manilla cardboard "express letter" envelopes, and shoved it in there and taped the ends together. No padding, no static bag, nothing else. Physically it didn't get -too- banged up in shipment. But I took it out and stuck it in my AMD AM3 test computer just to see if it worked at all.
kithylin wrote:tincup wrote:So the card would beef up the XP component (GTX SLI) but leave W98 somewhat diminished - a less interesting proposal indeed - especially considering the potential downside of SLI to begin with. BTW I wasn't aware of the SLI limitation in W98 - really hadn't thought it through to be honest. I'm used to V2 SLI and "assumed". Never assume haha... I'll stick with the 7900GTX - great card and impressive HSF cooling..
A friend of mine alerted me speaking of voodoo2's that using voodoo2's with a fast CPU is a "BIG NO NO" and they can actually overheat to the point of their chips falling off the PCB and de-soldering. Supposedly they never thought to program any limitations in to the cards because at the time of their creation, CPU's were only like, Pentium and Pentium-II And K6-III era stuff, maybe early Pentium-II's. Supposedly something about as cpu speed gets faster it makes the VSA-100 chips work faster. So no voodoo2 SLI for my planned 4ghz Win98se system. I might consider it if I could buy a lot of copper heatsinks and mount a fan over the board. I've noticed in the past after a few hours of gaming my single voodoo2 with just my 2.5 ghz AthlonXP chip gets so hot I can barely touch it with my fingers for more than a few seconds, in Win98se.
I do believe Voodoo2 SLI does work 100% natively in win98se however. It's supposedly just nvidia's SLI that does not. Odd how that works.
agent_x007 wrote:Yes, I know I'm using 1/2 of GPU and 1/2 of CPU
BUT using 1/2 of CPU = less heat, so I can cool this with Intel BOX cooler (the full height one).
GPU is a "I have it so why not" kind of deal. I do own 7900 GTX but 7900 GX2 is just... more fun.
As to Windows 98 Second Edition modifications :
I didn't used a modified installer CD, plain Win 98 SE PL version of Windows (booted from Win98 floppy boot disk).
Installation went without problems (because I installed only 512MB of RAM first).
SSD was formatted to FAT32 on win 7, and was seen by Win 98 even in RAID mode.
Files were copied, win installation went forward.
After first boot I installed HimemX patch (along with Config.sys/System.ini modifications), and unofficial Win 98 SE 2.1b PL service pack (it added pendrive USB support, installed win updates).
After those, 2x2GB worked like it should.
Then came the usual drivers for MB, sound card, LAN, etc. (btw. I'm using Audigy 2 ZS in this PC [with VxD driver], forgot about that and 1Gbit/s PCI D-Link LAN [Win98 compatible] in full spec listed earlier).
Sidenote : I had to disable both onboard sound and LAN, to avoid hardware adress conflicts.
GPU driver (82.69) needed manual instalation.
After drivers, I installed IE 6.0, .NET 2.0, Java, KernelEX, dxwebsetup (offline version), the works.
^Is all of the above a "heavy modification of win98 core" ?
PS. Internet does work on this machine
Thanks to k-meleon 1.6.0 beta.
Opera and IE keep crashing within 20 sec(second, not so OK working part - k-meleon works fine).
kithylin wrote:agent_x007 wrote:^True, thats why I added "experimental PC", before listing specs.
It's waaay beyond what Win98 machine should (in theory) look like.
I done this to show what can be done (and be stable enough), but I do not recommend using this as daily Win98 machine.
EDIT : I didn't try that. But I still have it assembled and ready to go.
One problem - I got work, and can't tinker with it too much other than in weekends (not enough time...).
Ahh yeah see I'm after the other goal: I want a win98se system that can both be waaaay crazy fast, but still 100% functional as a daily driver with no hard "blue screen" crashes ever, and no program crashes either, no matter what program I run on it. That's my ultimate goal.
I think I can achieve that with this i945p platform and some day get Intel Core2Duo x6800 processor and see if I can't hit 4.5 - 4.8 ghz, and nvidia 7900 GTX, or maybe FX-5500 quadro. And hopefully should be 100% daily-driver stable too. Some day.
Oerg866 wrote:Hello.
It's not hard. Just requires patience
There's plenty of things to help. I have the RAM Patch and the SATA patch from R. Loew. On top of that you really should install the unofficial 98SE service pack.
BTW: For network drivers you can just use the NDIS2 drivers still provided by all major manufacturers for legacy reasons.
My favourite ones are those with a genuine OPL3 in the silicon (i.e. YMF 7xx and a couple of aztech cards, maybe few others). I'm quite liking the fact that you can get a nice MIDI Softsynth alongside running DOS games.
Right now I've got it running on a Z97 platform without major issuesFirst off, I have heard from friends that there exists somewhere on the internet a very very heavily modified windows 98 install. Said install will work all the way up to I7 cpu's, provide rudimentary multi-core support, and even support large ram up to 3.5 GB (32-Bit Limit) and all sorts of newer video cards.
I was going to say "that would be mine" (you can PM me for info) but rudimentary multi-core support... nope. It doesn't exist and it will never exist. The closest thing that exists is a multi core SDK where you have to write the software and include those libs to use multiple threads/CPUs/cores.
vetz wrote:kithylin wrote:EDIT: I loathe the idea.. but I may have to pay for his software.. which should be a free community patch for the retro community. Charging for that is ludicrous and laughable... at least $20 per patch is retarded too. Yep. I might end up getting the greater than 512MB patch too just because it would enable me to use some better ram for this project and overclock it further.
I completely agree with you. It's ransome for that price and completely ridicious, and also the reason why I refuse to buy any patches even though I could use them.
kithylin wrote:vetz wrote:kithylin wrote:EDIT: I loathe the idea.. but I may have to pay for his software.. which should be a free community patch for the retro community. Charging for that is ludicrous and laughable... at least $20 per patch is retarded too. Yep. I might end up getting the greater than 512MB patch too just because it would enable me to use some better ram for this project and overclock it further.
I completely agree with you. It's ransome for that price and completely ridicious, and also the reason why I refuse to buy any patches even though I could use them.
Does anyone know of any i945p motherboards that support wolfdale chips?
Nahuel wrote:well, after nearly 3 months i finally got *ALMOST* all the pieces i need for a build, but im having problems with 1 thing on my p5ld2-se, cant get the ide controllers to work.This is the list of pieces i have for a w98, XP and 7 build with pcie:
core2duo e6700 (for now until i get enough money for a x6800)
mother asus p5ld2-se
1 stick 512mb ddr2 800 (for windows 98 setup, then ill limit with himemx) and 4 sticks of ocz 1gb ddr2 800 platinum (for xp and 7)
1 sata 80gb and 1 250gb hdd
2 geforce 6800 ultra and 2 6800 gs (only 1 for the build of course)
no sound card for now, maybe ill get a 5.1live or audigy zs2
kithylin wrote:I've found on mine that the hard drives work fine in XP With Compatible mode enabled for IDE drives. I would suggest if you want compatibility for windows XP you just forget SATA (even though this board has it) and just go with straight IDE drives. You'll have a lot less of a headache getting both OS's to work. I'd also suggest different physical drives for each OS. Trying to dual-boot XP and Win9x on the same hard drive is possible but it screws up a lot of things.
kithylin wrote:truemaster wrote:hello after a long of time having 2 pcs one for everyday work and one retro pc for old games mainly dos. i decide (for fun first) to try and unify the things one pc for them all and i did it for most things
mobo gigabyte z97m d3h (intel 9 series chipset)
ram ddr3 8gb 2x4 1600mhz with xmp
gpu msi 750ti ocv1 gddr5 2gb
cpu 15 4690 3.5
for me the ide compatibility didnt work the installation cd fails to detect cdrom drive. so i copy the cd files in the root of my secondary sata hdd and i use the cd for getting dos commands only. i create the windows folder put in there the himemx.exe from freedos rename it to himem.exe and create a config.sys with this command device=c:\windows\himem.exe /max=393216 and i successful install win98se without any errors!!!. i also needed to run setup with the /p i parameter in order to have all my devices listed in device manager, without the /p i parameter i coudnt see usb and pci devices (but can be install manually in the add hardware wizard) for sound card, i have a soundblaster live ct4830 using the wdm driver the sound is working ok. for vga there are no drivers for that card so only the universal vbe just to have some more resolution on desktop. in the autoexec.bat this command c:\drv\nolfb.com (for dos games not to have flickering screen) and a patch that let me access safe mode. the built is working ok i can have my wired xbox360 controller working too, and all my dos games working perfect. now is there any way for this gpu to work? even as 128mb 6000 series card??
the only issue but thank god is small and i found solution instantly is that any time i click the command.com or an exe of a dos game, the command.com or the dos game make my computer freeze after a while it beep the computer (one beep) and then the command.com or the dos game starts without further problems. the only solution found is to create a shortcut and select run in full screen in this case the dos game of the command.com starts instantly. hope this helps anyone that intends to install win98se on newer hardware
Yeah uhm.. Thanks for sharing your information but... kinda the entire point of this thread was finding hardware that worked natively without any "fixes".. which I think I did. Win98 generally won't work correctly on new systems like that. Even then I have OpenGL issues with the newer system I had it working on for some odd reason (OpenGL no work).
kithylin wrote:truemaster wrote:yeah youre right. its too unsupported hardware near as miracle that it works. but if someone needs a native dos enviroment this is a good solution. my first attempt was to install ms-dos but the sb16 emulation driver didnt like my mobo. (it expects different communication between sb and mobo) so this is the solution for dos gaming with sound on such hardware. even if it is a little absolute - incompatible in some terms
Yep that's another issue. Newer chipsets dropped the pci communications necessary for old sound cards to work too. So after a certain point you lose everything for Win98se compatibility. And video cards maybe should work but I'm having issues with 6800 ultra under Win98se.
truemaster wrote:i need to ask you something. my mobo have 2 pcie slots, in the bios there is an option to enable the one or the other slot. if i put a win98 compatible card will the card work ok without the chipset drivers? since there are not official or unofficial for intel 9 series chipset
kithylin wrote:truemaster wrote:i need to ask you something. my mobo have 2 pcie slots, in the bios there is an option to enable the one or the other slot. if i put a win98 compatible card will the card work ok without the chipset drivers? since there are not official or unofficial for intel 9 series chipset
I honestly don't know. And the chipset drivers I found -ARE- the official ones for the 9 series chipset for win98. They were actually posted on the Intel website for a few months then later pulled the next year. I don't know the exact dates but they are actual Intel drivers. I found em through an archived version of the Intel download site after I found some forum postings (also archived) that gave me the correct dates to look for and found it there. I don't remember what I had searched for at the time, I made this thread a long time ago now.
Anyway.. some people have reported some video cards working in Win98se without chipset drivers.. but no one has come back and said 100% "Yes this works with all games perfectly stable without crashing." for using gpu's in win98 without chipset drivers. So I don't know if it will work well for you for gaming or not.
I made a thread over here: https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=52171 that outlines how to modify driver inf files to load in video cards not actually in the drivers. That might help you.. and if you try it, report back to us if it works and what games you've tried.. and try OpenGL-Based games and Direct3D games please.. (Quake3's an OpenGL Game).
truemaster wrote:success win 98se on intel 9 series chipset (2014 motherboard)
truemaster wrote:i found chipset drivers not official tho. it seems a lot of people write drivers fo ensure compatibility with modern hardware. the only real patch is the one that enables safe mode. the himemx.exe from freedos is actually a memory manager that i use to lower the amount of ram to a value that win98 can work 512 mb to be precise. thats not a patch at least not hardcore one like the ones from r.loew. btw you were right about those hardcore patches they break things, in my case it breaks audio complete, bad sound so i ditch them. i am positive that everything regarding 3d games will work once i have a compatible gpu
kithylin wrote:tincup wrote:Yes! it can be done as you've demonstrated. First step is an early PCIe gen motherboard with chipset drivers that support W9x. A number of fairly easily sourced and not too expensive s775 based mobos to chose from allow P4/C2D cpu options. Next the modded v9291 nVidia drivers for 7x cards - I run a 7900GTX in this case. It's 512 VRAM triggers the W98 ram limit right off the bat regardless of how much system ram in use use - so I yielded to the versitile RLOWE memory patch - and loaded on ram. 2gb system ram - nuts for 98 but its an XP dual boot box so it make sense.
A "Super98" system is cool since you can run W98 games natively at silly resolutions, and as some Glide Wrappers work in W98 also run glide games at silly resolutions too. All under native W98 with no need for fussy XP/W7 workarounds etc... a fun project!
This is an interesting thing I was unaware of... does the.. video card's video ram, trigger the 512MB ram limit in win98se? I was considering trying a 1GB video ram video card in 98se next, but may not now. I don't understand why it would though, it's not system RAM and should have nothing to do with anything to do with the OS's system ram limitation of 512MB
Also like I said earlier in the post I try to avoid any sort of "modification" to 98se it's self.. personally. That includes "patches" or things that modify it's maximum ram. So I'm trying to steer away from those sorts of things in this thread if at all possible. This is more about "living within the initial confines of the thing" sort of.
Windows98 has a maximum of 512MB of physical ram. This thread is not for discussing how to get around that. Install 512MB ram and use Win98 correctly. Patches are not necessary for any reason if the system is designed correctly.
kithylin wrote:vetz wrote:Windows98 has a maximum of 512MB of physical ram. This thread is not for discussing how to get around that. Install 512MB ram and use Win98 correctly. Patches are not necessary for any reason if the system is designed correctly.
The 512MB limit is due to Virtual Cache bug, which is easily fixed, the practical limit is 1GB since Win98 is not designed to handle more than 1GB. Theoretical limit is 4GB (in practice 3.2gb due to 32bit operating system). You can have more than 1GB installed in your computer for other operating systems, but Win98 will only address 1GB if you use the Microsoft workarounds.
Yes in my experience that makes Win98 -TERRIBLY UNSTABLE-. For those of us that want 100% stable win98 experience we just use 512MB ram like it's meant to be. Then there's no dicking around with patches and all sorts of weirdness. Using more than 512MB ram and trying to "make it work" is likely why most folks think win98se is unstable.. crashing all the time, bluescreens, etc.
kithylin wrote:Guys and gals.. please.. you're all getting -WAY- off topic for this thread. I said in the beginning and I've repeated it multiple times. If you want to "Patch" and figure out how to run Win98 on "Crazy systems" like i7 sockets and later, then you need to make a new thread to discuss "modified windows 98 installs" because yes, it's entirely possible to run Win98 all the way up to haswell systems. But that's -extremely- heavy mods to the win98 systems, files, and even have to patch and modify the kernel and all of that nonsense.
nvidia GeForce 8000 series and later are -NOT- supported on "Vanilla" Windows 98. It's not possible. Even the 7000 series is "maybe possible" with some sort of hacked and modified drivers. But 8000 series is definitely not possible at all.95DosBox wrote:This doesn't make any sense. What kind of Voodoo2 cards are these that are overheating? Legacy PCI or ISA?
It makes perfect sense. The Voodoo2 is -NOT- a "video card" it is a "3D Accelerator" board. As such it was never programmed with any "Limitations" in mind because when it was created, it as assumed that by the time people were using later video cards, the voodoo2 would be so obsolete no one would be using it. As a side-effect, the faster your CPU is, the faster the voodoo2 will run. There literally is no limit at all. And the faster the voodoo2 runs, the hotter it gets. What I'm talking about is like connecting a Voodoo2 to a 5ghz Pentium4 machine = bad idea. Or connecting it to a I7-2600K @ 4.6 ghz in XP for example also bad.
truemaster wrote:about the 1gb memory, it give problems i can confirm that. the windows boot but some of my games crashing after a while and i need to make a hard reset.
768 mb its the golden amount. note that i havent edit any ini file, i use the unofficial sp3. and because i use my primary pc that has 8gb of ram, i use the himemx from freedos to lower the available memory to 768 mb. 768 mb plays ok without any crashes and the quake 4 seems to benefit for 768 since my first attempt was a 512 machine
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