RandomStranger wrote on 2024-06-19, 16:45:

I also think modern hardware is not retroproof, but because it's part of the software as a service era so the future retro hardware won't have much software to run. And then what's the point having it? And even on consoles and other forms of entertainment media. It's as if FOMO is fully weaponized for profit even if it comes with the destruction of culture.

Full agreement. For many games, there will be no way back. Retro-computing will become a new form of cargo-cult science: Having the infrastructure won't bring back the planes.

I think it the other way round - my old hardware needs those great old games. Even back then, for most people , a 386 was probably just a curious crossing between typewriter and a TV (+ maybe a calculator). Only when all of a sudden that Lucas Arts logo would fly in with full fanfare, you knew that there is more to it. And today, when you want to showcase what your machine can do simply fire up cyberpunk. This was true from the first day on. The Apple 2 needed Breakout to show what this machine is all about.
Even if you do t play much, the games are the quintessential showcase and proof that your machine is still alive and working properly

But yes, you can play breakout also on an i13600...

ux-3 wrote on 2024-06-20, 07:36:

RandomStranger wrote on 2024-06-19, 16:45:

I also think modern hardware is not retroproof, but because it's part of the software as a service era so the future retro hardware won't have much software to run. And then what's the point having it? And even on consoles and other forms of entertainment media. It's as if FOMO is fully weaponized for profit even if it comes with the destruction of culture.

Full agreement. For many games, there will be no way back. Retro-computing will become a new form of cargo-cult science: Having the infrastructure won't bring back the planes.

When I was putting together my obsessive list of all the games I wanted to preserve for my own edification, I hit a soft wall with SaaS games and/or DRM around 2004, which became an increasingly harder wall circa 2010. Most of those games that fell afoul of this I'm not going to miss. Like I'm not sure many are going to miss Evolved now that the servers are permanently offline, although I suppose it probably has a dedicated following that do lament it's death. On the other hand, it seems most Total War games after 2008 or so require Steam accounts and DRM to function? Sometimes we get lucky and GOG re-releases a game DRM free, and that installer even runs on period appropriate hardware. But even that seems to be less of a thing these days? I've noticed XP and Vista compatibility coming off the product pages of recently released "Good Old Games".

It's going to be an absolute wasteland of lost culture in gaming from the 2010's through possibly forever. I don't see Games as a Service going anywhere.

Namrok wrote on 2024-06-20, 13:45:

ux-3 wrote on 2024-06-20, 07:36:

RandomStranger wrote on 2024-06-19, 16:45:

I also think modern hardware is not retroproof, but because it's part of the software as a service era so the future retro hardware won't have much software to run. And then what's the point having it? And even on consoles and other forms of entertainment media. It's as if FOMO is fully weaponized for profit even if it comes with the destruction of culture.

Full agreement. For many games, there will be no way back. Retro-computing will become a new form of cargo-cult science: Having the infrastructure won't bring back the planes.

When I was putting together my obsessive list of all the games I wanted to preserve for my own edification, I hit a soft wall with SaaS games and/or DRM around 2004, which became an increasingly harder wall circa 2010. Most of those games that fell afoul of this I'm not going to miss. Like I'm not sure many are going to miss Evolved now that the servers are permanently offline, although I suppose it probably has a dedicated following that do lament it's death. On the other hand, it seems most Total War games after 2008 or so require Steam accounts and DRM to function? Sometimes we get lucky and GOG re-releases a game DRM free, and that installer even runs on period appropriate hardware. But even that seems to be less of a thing these days? I've noticed XP and Vista compatibility coming off the product pages of recently released "Good Old Games".

It's going to be an absolute wasteland of lost culture in gaming from the 2010's through possibly forever. I don't see Games as a Service going anywhere.

all good points, what indeed is the point of saving a current/near future PC if in fact almost everything that is released that requires it will depend completely on being online or subscription to even operate. some future equivalent of emulation may be to hack or otherwise spoof being online enough to get things running. what happens when a large component of a game's content isnt ever downloaded/available on your mpc but is streamed at the pc/console instead? once it goes its gone.

Let's not forget that a lot of older software simply will not run on a modern OS

Namrok wrote on 2024-06-20, 13:45:

Sometimes we get lucky and GOG re-releases a game DRM free, and that installer even runs on period appropriate hardware. But even that seems to be less of a thing these days? I've noticed XP and Vista compatibility coming off the product pages of recently released "Good Old Games".

There are also cases where games are updated and DRM removed, but the original game no longer works on older operating systems.

Bioshock 2 is an example. The original game was released for XP and requires Windows Games for Live, which is defunct. A DRM-free version of the game was later released via GoG, but it no longer works on XP (I believe it requires Win7 and up).

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-06-21, 13:28:

Namrok wrote on 2024-06-20, 13:45:

Sometimes we get lucky and GOG re-releases a game DRM free, and that installer even runs on period appropriate hardware. But even that seems to be less of a thing these days? I've noticed XP and Vista compatibility coming off the product pages of recently released "Good Old Games".

There are also cases where games are updated and DRM removed, but the original game no longer works on older operating systems.

Bioshock 2 is an example. The original game was released for XP and requires Windows Games for Live, which is defunct. A DRM-free version of the game was later released via GoG, but it no longer works on XP (I believe it requires Win7 and up).

I can't speak to Bioshock 2's problem, but I had a similar problem with Empire Earth off GOG, and it turned out all I had to do was delete a DirectX wrapper dll from the game directory and it was right as rain. Obnoxious, but not insurmountable.

Shponglefan wrote on 2024-06-21, 13:28:

Bioshock 2 is an example. The original game was released for XP and requires Windows Games for Live, which is defunct. A DRM-free version of the game was later released via GoG, but it no longer works on XP (I believe it requires Win7 and up).

I haven't tried GOG's version of BioShock 2 on WinXP, but the first game (also from GOG) does work.

That said, there's no practical reason to play either of those games under WinXP. You want the DX10 renderer for improved water effects, and that is not available under XP. As for EAX, both BioShock games handle that via OpenAL, so it works fine on Vista and up.

Namrok wrote on 2024-06-21, 13:33:

I can't speak to Bioshock 2's problem, but I had a similar problem with Empire Earth off GOG, and it turned out all I had to do was delete a DirectX wrapper dll from the game directory and it was right as rain. Obnoxious, but not insurmountable.

Thanks for the idea, I'll give that a try and see if it works.