VOGONS


Asus P2B-F Slot 1 Retro PC

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First post, by SpaceCadet

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For the longest time I had this idea of having a DOS/Windows 9x PC again that could run all the games and software natively from my formative computing years (1991-2000). Emulation and source ports are nice and all, but I wanted to experience the real thing again with real hardware, as many of you will probably understand. Unfortunately, my parents threw out all my old PC "junk" after I left the house many years ago. That junk included an AWE32, an AWE64 and a Voodoo 2 card 🙁

Looking at what I wanted to do, I decided to go for a PC of the Pentium II/III era. They should be plenty fast for any DOS game you throw at it, and they still have ISA slots, which would allow me to install a DOS compatible soundcard, like an SB16 or AWE32, because I really wanted wanted something with a real OPL3 chip. Additionally, with the right video card, they would also allow me to play early 3D accelerated games.

I had never built a PC from scratch before, and found that prospect a bit daunting, so I first started to look for pre-built brand name PC's to use as a base. On a whim, and without doing much research beforehand, I purchased a 1999 Dell Dimension XPS T500 that I found on ebay. Later that week I found an SB16 CT2230 as well, and I thought that would be the end of it.

SB16 porn:
UkK0aV7l.jpg

Unfortunately, the XPS T500 got pretty beaten up during shipping. It arrived like this:

3k6eZwPl.jpg

Inside the case I found more broken off bits of plastic from god knows what, several cables that got knocked loose, neither of the optical drives was working anymore either, and I got IO errors and filesystem corruption when trying to install Windows 98. Needless to say I felt quite disappointed. Fortunately, the seller was very cooperative and apologetic about the affair, and I received a full refund and could keep the goods.

I eventually got the thing working properly again, but looking like it did, I realized it would never be something I would want to have on my desk and look at with pride. The fact that all the 20+ year old fans made a godawful racket didn't help either. My first idea was to transplant the contents of this case to a new ATX case, after all it's just ATX right? Well no, it turns out that Dell used a proprietary PSU during this period and you need a specific and hard to find converter to connect it to a regular ATX PSU, or you risk frying the motherboard. Good thing I did my research this time.

Onto plan C then! I decided to put the refund money towards an entirely new build with a regular ATX 440BX motherboard (that seemed to be the chipset to go for).

For the case I picked up a budget friendly but (IMO) quite stylish Fractal Design Focus G. I opted for the white variant, because I find it the most fitting for a retrobuild, and I just like that "stormtrooper" black and white scheme. It comes with two 5.25" bays too, so I could fit an optical drive and a Gotek floppy emulator that I planned to get.

For the powersupply, I happened to have a brand new CoolerMaster 550W MWE Gold modular PSU lying around. Total overkill for this project, but I already had it so I just used it.

For storage, I decided to get an SD-to-IDE adapter from Amazon instead of using real disks. This would allow me to quickly change "identities" just by switching the SD card. I plan to have a DOS 6.22, Windows 9x, NT4 and perhaps even a Linux identity. Zero access times and no hard drive whine are nice to have too.

Soon I stumbled across a relatively cheap Asus P2B-F that came with some extra goodies (PII-400 CPU included, Matrox G450 card, ForteMedia FM801 PCI soundcard, 128MB RAM). I pulled the trigger on it, and a week or two later it arrived. I put everything together on my desk first and it POST-ed just fine. The only thing it complained about was a missing -5V line from my new PSU, which I set to ignore in the BIOS.

Assembling it on the box of its great-grandchild:
5jieJrWl.jpg

Putting everything in the case:
nyDTBtLl.jpg

Testing the system for the first time, the only way I know how:
pkfVrz2l.jpg

Notice that the SD-to-IDE adapter is still propped up on a cardboard box on top of the drive cage. The mounting holes don't match anything standard, so I couldn't screw it down in a drive bay or anything. I found a solution to that later.

The system worked fine now, but I wasn't happy with the noise that came from the 6000rpm (!) CoolerMaster CPU fan on that PII. First I tried to swap it with the PIII-500 from the Dell. It's sorta passively cooled, it has a sketchy looking heatsink but in the Dell case there's a duct mounted over it that connects to a high rpm exhaust fan to provide sufficient airflow. On its own, inside my new case, it ran finger burning hot even when I underclocked it to 333MHz, so I didn't trust that setup. It sure was nice and quiet though ...

So I decided to replace the fan on the PII-400 with a 50mm fan from Fractal Design. It runs only at 3500rpm, and has about half the CFM rating but given that the processor doesn't even get noticeably warm with the 6000rpm fan, I figured I had some margin there. I added an extra 120mm exhaust fan to be safe though.

Oh, and I found some 4mm PCB standoffs with sticky pad feet so I could fixate the SD-to-IDE adapter on top of the drive cage without drilling extra holes!

ArjzMz0l.jpg

Now my system ran a lot quieter, but still not "whisper quiet". That 50mm fan was still the noisiest component of my system. So I went on a quest to find a PIII with a low TDP and a decent passive heatsink. Unfortunately, it turns out that my revision of the P2B-F doesn't have the voltage regulator to support Coppermine CPUs (which run at 1.6V instead of 2V)... so I was stuck with Katmai or Deschutes. So I found another PIII-500 but with a bigass heatsink this time, and mounted an exhaust fan right above it:

HRZPJDRl.jpg

The heatsink gets a lot hotter to the touch than the PII with fan, but more like "fresh cup of coffee" hot than "finger blistering hot" with that Dell heatsink. I think I'm good there, but I did order a cheap IR thermometer to get some ballpark figure on the temperature it's running at. If it doesn't work out, next step is to get a slotket with a voltage regulator and mount a passively cooled Coppermine socket 370 variant with low TDP in there.

Final addition to the system is a real CRT monitor. I found a new-old-stock Philips 107T6 17" monitor locally. At €150 I feel like I way overpaid for it, but it was the only decent one I could find locally and I learned my lesson with having large fragile objects shipped from abroad.

Funny story about when that monitor arrived: when I first hooked it up, I thought it was broken. The image was all skewed and the colors (especially red) were all off on one side. I double checked the VGA connector, degaussed, even swapped video cards, all to no effect. Just as my heart sank thinking about having to send it back or living with such a glaring defect, I pushed one of my modern Edifier speakers a bit aside ... and sure enough the image changed as I moved the speaker around. Apparently, modern PC speakers aren't magnetically shielded anymore because well, they don't need it. I swapped it with some older Logitech speakers, and the problem was solved.

It does look glorious for old games:
qpps89jl.jpg
ixQNuRml.jpg

tl;dr System specs:

  • Fractal Design Focus G case
  • Cooler Master 550W MWE Gold PSU
  • ASUS P2B-F mainboard
  • Pentium III 500 Mhz CPU (Katmai)
    Pentium III 750 Mhz CPU (Coppermine)
  • 2x256MB 133MHz Infineon SDRAM
  • Matrox G450 AGP
    NVidia Riva TNT2 M64
  • Realtek-something-something 100Mbit PCI ethernet card
  • SD-to-IDE adapter with 32GB SD card
  • Soundblaster 16 CT2230
  • HL-DT-ST DVD drive
  • Philips 107T6 17" CRT

Todo:

  • Install Gotek floppy emulator
  • Find a proper IO shield, as the MB didn't come with one
  • Tidy up cable management a bit
  • Find a cdaudio cable to connect the optical drive to the SB16
  • Get an optical PS/2 mouse as my usb mouse only work in Windows, and I'm too old to deal with ball mice again
  • Get a slotket and add a Coppermine Socket 370 CPU
  • Perhaps find a Voodoo3 for it
Last edited by SpaceCadet on 2020-06-17, 09:55. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 1 of 27, by AnnoyingPentium

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That's a nice machine you've got there! Specs seem somewhat similar to my own PIII setup as well.

It's just a shame what happened to that Dell as it would have been a great system to work with. Do you have any plans for it? 😃

Ryan B. Sent from my nuclear reactor.

Too many computers. But my ICL DRS M75 is rather cool.
__________
"I don't have favourites, just some I like more than others"

Reply 2 of 27, by Oetker

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Nicely done! I had that same monitor back in the day!
An older USB mouse with a passive PS2->USB converter should work too.
Edit: maybe your modern mouse even works with one, you never know.

Reply 3 of 27, by SpaceCadet

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AnnoyingPentium wrote on 2020-06-11, 10:35:

That's a nice machine you've got there!

Thanks, I don't mind saying that it turned out quite well given that it's the first PC I ever built from scratch!

This forum has been a treasure trove of information though.

AnnoyingPentium wrote on 2020-06-11, 10:35:

It's just a shame what happened to that Dell as it would have been a great system to work with. Do you have any plans for it? 😃

No real plans for the Dell at the moment, although I have enough parts that I could resurrect it into a working system. It's just an eyesore now, with that broken front panel and missing drive bay covers. Maybe I will transplant the motherboard to a new case sometime in the future.

Reply 4 of 27, by SpaceCadet

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Oetker wrote on 2020-06-11, 10:47:

Nicely done! I had that same monitor back in the day!

I quite like the monitor, the colors are good but the sharpness at higher resolutions could be better, but at least those low-res DOS games look *right* now. The first day, it did give me terrible coil whine in certain configurations, but that's gone now. Just some hibernation sickness I guess? 😀

Oetker wrote on 2020-06-11, 10:47:

An older USB mouse with a passive PS2->USB converter should work too.
Edit: maybe your modern mouse even works with one, you never know.

Yeah I have a couple of those green PS2/USB converter thingies. None of the USB mice I have lying around worked with it, even a 10 year old cheap Dell branded office mouse refused to work with it.

Even more surprising to me was that many keyboards wouldn't work either. For example, I have a Unicomp Model M with USB plug that refused to speak through a PS/2 adapter, even though that should be its native protocol. Same thing with my Realforce 87UW, and my Poker II didn't even work via USB. I guess it's USB 2.0 only. Anyway, my trusty Filco worked and now I hooked up my Model M SSK to it:

Kks0HSll.jpg

Reply 5 of 27, by appiah4

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SpaceCadet wrote on 2020-06-07, 15:22:

Unfortunately, it turns out that my revision of the P2B-F doesn't have the voltage regulator to support Coppermine CPUs (which run at 1.6V instead of 2V)... so I was stuck with Katmai or Deschutes.

Did you actually check the Voltage Regulator chips or are you going by the Revision 1.00 only? Because if the latter, you are possibly wrong. I have a Rev 1.00 P2B-F that is perfectly capable of running Coppermine CPUs because the voltage regulator is of the newer stock that can handle voltage down to 1.3V (HIP6019BCB). Check and you may be pleasantly surprised.

Retronautics: A digital gallery of my retro computers, hardware and projects.

Reply 6 of 27, by SpaceCadet

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appiah4 wrote on 2020-06-11, 21:58:

Did you actually check the Voltage Regulator chips or are you going by the Revision 1.00 only? Because if the latter, you are possibly wrong. I have a Rev 1.00 P2B-F that is perfectly capable of running Coppermine CPUs because the voltage regulator is of the newer stock that can handle voltage down to 1.3V (HIP6019BCB). Check and you may be pleasantly surprised.

I was going by revision only. How do I check the voltage regulator?

Reply 7 of 27, by appiah4

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SpaceCadet wrote on 2020-06-11, 22:48:
appiah4 wrote on 2020-06-11, 21:58:

Did you actually check the Voltage Regulator chips or are you going by the Revision 1.00 only? Because if the latter, you are possibly wrong. I have a Rev 1.00 P2B-F that is perfectly capable of running Coppermine CPUs because the voltage regulator is of the newer stock that can handle voltage down to 1.3V (HIP6019BCB). Check and you may be pleasantly surprised.

I was going by revision only. How do I check the voltage regulator?

By eye. The model no is written on it. Post a high quality photo of your board and I can tell you.

Retronautics: A digital gallery of my retro computers, hardware and projects.

Reply 10 of 27, by SpaceCadet

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In the meantime, I also took the G450 out and put the TNT2 M64 back in. The G450 was giving me issues with VESA modes in DOS, especially with the refresh rate. Trying to adjust anything with Gx00VBE, I either got 60Hz or "out of sync". UNIVBE or any of the Matrox DOS utilities weren't any help either. Pity, because the G450 has much better 3D performance in games like Quake 2.

With the TNT2 I found that the UNIRFRSH utility works fine to adjust VESA modes, and I can make it output 320x240, 640x400 etc. in 100Hz instead of a headache inducing 60Hz. Now if anyone knows how to add intermediate modes in DOS, like 400x300 and 512x384 (for Quake software rendering) I would be very grateful. In WinQuake these modes work, but that's using DirectDraw instead of VESA.

Reply 11 of 27, by appiah4

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Yes, that board will run Coppermine CPUs fine (once you update the BIOS IIRC, so flash the BIOS to the last P2B-F Rev:1.0 BIOS ASAP)

Retronautics: A digital gallery of my retro computers, hardware and projects.

Reply 13 of 27, by SpaceCadet

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ShovelKnight wrote on 2020-06-12, 14:00:

Look for Cherry USB/PS2 mice on eBay, they were the best option when I was looking for a beige optical PS/2 mouse.

Good tip, thanks! I didn't know about Cherry mice and they seem to have good availability.

Reply 14 of 27, by SpaceCadet

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Small update, I got me one of these:

z66W9Lvl.jpg

After verifying the accuracy by taking a reading of my skin and a hot cup of tea, which proved satisfactory, I took an initial reading on my CPU's heatsink. Half a minute after installing XP on a second SD card the temperature was 51 degrees, which I thought wasn't too bad. After using the system for a little bit, but not stressing it, I got mid 40s.

kQu1ys2l.jpg

However, when I went back to DOS and Windows 98 I found that temperatures got quite toastier, apparently this is because they don't send HLT instructions when the CPU is idle (Sidenote: I'll have to look into DOS Idle or equivalent). Anyways, I measured high 50s/low 60s on idle and up to 70° C after a "Doom torture test" (30 consecutive timedemos). Yikes! If the heatsink gets up to 70°C, I hate to think about how hot the CPU itself got...

I started to think about the airflow in my case. I do have two 120mm intake fans in the front and one exhaust fan right above my CPU ... but those intake fans are quite far away from my CPU, and the case has a lot of holes on all sides through which air can leak while *not* going over my CPU's heatsink and so not contributing to cooling whatsoever. In a way, the airiness of this case is its own enemy.

So I decided to turn that top exhaust fan around and make it an intake fan, blowing air almost directly onto the heatsink. Here's the result after letting DOS sit idle for a while and then taking that same Doom timedemo torture test:

jXimHWsl.jpg

Ahh... much better!

It's kinda stupid to have 3 intake fans and no exhaust fan, and it goes against conventional wisdom that hot air rises and so should be removed from the case at the top. But if it's stupid and it works, I guess it's not stupid...

Reply 16 of 27, by imi

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SpaceCadet wrote on 2020-06-15, 22:09:

It's kinda stupid to have 3 intake fans and no exhaust fan, and it goes against conventional wisdom that hot air rises and so should be removed from the case at the top. But if it's stupid and it works, I guess it's not stupid...

natural convection is pretty much insignificant once you introduce forced airflow ^^

and pure positive pressure can work just fine as long as the air has a path to flow.

Reply 17 of 27, by chinny22

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Shame about the Dell, although modding it back to standard ATX is really easy if you know how to use a soldering iron.
A Permanent Solution to the Dell 'Fake ATX' Power Supply Problem?
Other posts exist on the web on how to connect the front panel connectors to a standard case.
Although your Asus build is basically the same hardware and setup and running and really nice.

If it was me I'd add a 2nd PCI sound card to get the best out of win9x games. Depending on your games catalog Audigy 2 or below for EAX or Vortex 2 for A3D.

Reply 18 of 27, by appiah4

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chinny22 wrote on 2020-06-16, 11:48:
Shame about the Dell, although modding it back to standard ATX is really easy if you know how to use a soldering iron. A Permane […]
Show full quote

Shame about the Dell, although modding it back to standard ATX is really easy if you know how to use a soldering iron.
A Permanent Solution to the Dell 'Fake ATX' Power Supply Problem?
Other posts exist on the web on how to connect the front panel connectors to a standard case.
Although your Asus build is basically the same hardware and setup and running and really nice.

If it was me I'd add a 2nd PCI sound card to get the best out of win9x games. Depending on your games catalog Audigy 2 or below for EAX or Vortex 2 for A3D.

This is what I did in my Dell Dimension XPS D333.. AWE64 internally routed to Montego (Vortex 1) using the MB_PRO headers on the AWE64 and the AUX In on the Montego. It works perfectly.

Retronautics: A digital gallery of my retro computers, hardware and projects.

Reply 19 of 27, by SpaceCadet

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chinny22 wrote on 2020-06-16, 11:48:
Shame about the Dell, although modding it back to standard ATX is really easy if you know how to use a soldering iron. A Permane […]
Show full quote

Shame about the Dell, although modding it back to standard ATX is really easy if you know how to use a soldering iron.
A Permanent Solution to the Dell 'Fake ATX' Power Supply Problem?
Other posts exist on the web on how to connect the front panel connectors to a standard case.
Although your Asus build is basically the same hardware and setup and running and really nice.

Yeah that's the thing, resurrecting it wouldn't really bring anything new to the table. Anything it could do, my P2B-F can do as well (other than displaying a Dell logo on the boot screen 😉 ). I may do it in the future, just for the fun of doing the conversion, but I have other priorities now 😀

chinny22 wrote on 2020-06-16, 11:48:

If it was me I'd add a 2nd PCI sound card to get the best out of win9x games. Depending on your games catalog Audigy 2 or below for EAX or Vortex 2 for A3D.

Thinking about that, I harvested a Vortex 2 from the Dell and my LGA775 PC has an Audigy that I could borrow. Also thinking about getting a DreamBlaster (S2/X2) daughterboard for the SB16 for wavetable music.