PC-Engineer wrote on 2023-04-02, 07:02:

HighColor with 16Bit up to 1280x1024.

Thank you for the links and it's 1280 x 1024 x 16-bit colour that I would really like, there look to be NT4.00/3.51 drivers @ https://oemdrivers.com/graphics-s3-p86c928.

Now I need to find one of those cards which I suspect will be tricky

kixs wrote on 2023-04-01, 10:02:

Actually I get 17MB/s on VLB and 18MB/s on PCI bus. It's definitely not an ISA bus 😉

With hindsight I should have RTFM, I now have and from SIV 5.70 Beta-04 the bus type will be reported 😀

Consider replacing "VLB" with just "Local Bus" - it's impossible to tell apart VESA vs. Opti vs. onboard in software.

Grzyb wrote on 2023-04-02, 13:45:

Consider replacing "VLB" with just "Local Bus" - it's impossible to tell apart VESA vs. Opti vs. onboard in software.

I don't understand what this means, Local Bus could mean either of VESA Local Bus or PCI Local Bus , SIV is reporting the GPU not the motherboard chipset.

The GPU chipset datasheet specifies VESA Local Bus for the mode the GPU is using so it's sensible for software to report this for the GPU.

red-ray wrote on 2023-04-02, 14:02:

I don't understand what this means, Local Bus could mean either of VESA Local Bus or PCI Local Bus , SIV is reporting the GPU not the motherboard chipset.

The GPU chipset datasheet specifies VESA Local Bus for the mode the GPU is using so it's sensible for software to report this for the GPU.

Yes, one datasheet refers to that as "VESA local bus", but the other as "386DX/486 local bus".
The latter is more precise, because it doesn't imply that the VESA slot is used.

386/486 local bus can be used via VESA slot, Opti slot, maybe some other slot, or onboard = no slot at all.

Grzyb wrote on 2023-04-02, 14:18:

The latter is more precise, because it doesn't imply that the VESA slot is used.

Earlier posts make it clear the 86C764 is on the motherboard and not in a VESA slot at all, so why are you now talking about VESA slots?

For a 86C764 GPU to be operating in VESA Local Bus mode clearly it does not need to be in a VESA slot.

Further the SIV screen shot shows it's a 86C764 and the 86C764 datasheet says VESA Local Bus so what SIV is reporting is 100% correct.

Basically what you keep posting makes no sense at all.

There is no such as local PCI. The "local" meaning is nonsense.

VESA local bus is correct in long, VLB in short and is designed for 486 and was designed by VESA committee back then.

Please stick to industry standards terms.

Cheers,

pentiumspeed wrote on 2023-04-02, 14:57:

There is no such as local PCI. The "local" meaning is nonsense. […]
Show full quote

There is no such as local PCI. The "local" meaning is nonsense.

VESA local bus is correct in long, VLB in short and is designed for 486 and was designed by VESA committee back then.

Please stick to industry standards terms.

I am quoting what is in the S3 datasheet and clearly you need to tell S3 to correct their 86C764 datasheet.

Please don't shoot the messenger!

Further I feel you are incorrect and need to get your facts right before you post

Basically, 386DX and 486 CPUs have 32-bit external bus, referred to as 386DX/486 local bus.
That bus can be used by onboard devices, or by cards using slots.
There are at least two slot standards for that:
- VESA Local Bus
- Opti Local Bus

As they are just slot standards, it's impossible to distinguish between them in software.

Am I wrong somewhere?

pentiumspeed wrote on 2023-04-02, 14:57:

VESA local bus is correct in long, VLB in short and is designed for 486 and was designed by VESA committee back then.
Please stick to industry standards terms.

pre vesa https://www.freepatentsonline.com/5426739.pdf Re: Pre-VESA Proprietary 32-bit Local Buses?

Grzyb wrote on 2023-04-02, 15:07:

Am I wrong somewhere?

Yes, it's the MODE the GPU is operating in. It can be in PCI mode or VLB mode and as to what is connected to does not matter.

Yet again on the [GPU Information] panel SIV is reporting the GPU mode and nothing more. It is not saying anything about the motherboard chipset.

Were SIV to report what you are talking about it would be on the Menu->Hardware->Chipset->Chipset MCH panel as it's nothing to do with the GPU mode.

OK, the term VLB is good enough, you can use it if you wish.
Nevertheless, S3 isn't consistent in using that term.

Grzyb wrote on 2023-04-02, 15:43:

Nevertheless, S3 isn't consistent in using that term.

Yes, I posted sections from two datasheets partly to show this and also to show the 86C924 had ISA + ESIA modes.

We will have to live with inconsistent names in 20+ year old data sheets, I am far more interested in getting S3 86Cnnn datasheets that are not scans so I could search them than worrying about this.

red-ray wrote on 2023-04-02, 14:46:

[For a 86C764 GPU to be operating in VESA Local Bus mode clearly it does not need to be in a VESA slot.

That is correct, VLB is basically direct to 486 with fluff and frills, just wiring it to CPU directly with a local bus that does not have the Vesa fluff and frills, will still look like VLB, there's not a way to say "Hey look they didn't install a socket with all the power and the pins in the right places"

pentiumspeed wrote on 2023-04-02, 14:57:

There is no such as local PCI. The "local" meaning is nonsense. […]
Show full quote

There is no such as local PCI. The "local" meaning is nonsense.

VESA local bus is correct in long, VLB in short and is designed for 486 and was designed by VESA committee back then.

Please stick to industry standards terms.

Cheers,

Is this what you're referring to as industry standards ?

PCI Local Bus Specification Revision 2.3 March 29, 2002 […]
Show full quote

PCI Local Bus
Specification
Revision 2.3
March 29, 2002

http://www.cisl.columbia.edu/courses/spring-2 … outs/pci_23.pdf

red-ray wrote on 2023-04-02, 15:23:

Grzyb wrote on 2023-04-02, 15:07:

Am I wrong somewhere?

Yes, it's the MODE the GPU is operating in.

no

red-ray wrote on 2023-04-02, 15:23:

It can be in PCI mode or VLB mode and as to what is connected to does not matter.

there is no such thing as VLB mode. VLB describes just dropping piece of electronics on raw CPU memory/data bus. Same Trio32/64 chips were used in Amiga graphic cards https://bigbookofamigahardware.com/bboah/product.aspx?id=463 in exact same way, chip connected to Zorro memory/data bus. I dont have to mention Amiga never had VLB 😜 Even chip manufacturers can make mistakes in their own documentation, or fill it with marketing jargon.

rasz_pl wrote on 2023-04-02, 17:30:

there is no such thing as VLB mode.

I never said there was, I said the "86C764 was operating in VLB mode" which is the situation.

would you also call Voodoo3 3000 AGP plugged into AGP port as operating in "AGP mode"? 😀

red-ray wrote on 2023-03-31, 17:20:

cyclone3d wrote on 2023-03-31, 17:13:

I'll have to dig it out and build a system to put it in. I'll try to check this weekend and report back.

Thank you, that would be great. I checked my PCI one on a Pentium Pro 233 system running Windows XP, but as I recall ISA GPUs are not supported on XP. As I have NT 4.00 SP6a ideally use NT 4.00 as 9X drivers are often different.

Getting ready to test this, but I decided to look at the NT 4.0 drivers first. Here are the officially supported modes per the ReadMe file:

11.1     Supported Resolutions.
2
3                    256 colors    65535 colors    16.7 million   TRUE color
4     Resolutions    8 bpp         16 bpp          24 bpp         32 bpp *
5
6     640 x  480     2/4MB         2/4MB           2/4MB          2/4MB
7     800 x  600     2/4MB         2/4MB           2/4MB          2/4MB
8    1024 x  768     2/4MB         2/4MB           4MB            4MB
9    1152 x  864     2/4MB         2/4MB           4MB            4MB
10    1280 x 1024     2/4MB         4MB             4MB            N/A
11    1600 x 1200     2/4MB         4MB             N/A            N/A
12
132/4MB  -  Supported on 2 or 4 Megabyte mach64 products
144MB    -  ONLY supported on 4 Megabyte mach64 products
15N/A    -  Not Supported
16
17*  Note:  TRUE color provides 16.7 million colors using a 32 bpp data
18          format.  TRUE color provides higher performance, but uses more
19          graphics memory.
20
21          TRUE color is ONLY available for mach64.
22
23          TRUE color at 800x600 is not available on all 2MB cards.
24
25** Note:  24 bpp is available ONLY with the linear aperture.
26
27** Note:  Not all color depths are supported at all refresh rates.
28
29** Note:  1600x1200 is not available on all DAC types.
30
31** Note:  Only 640x480 8 bpp, 1024x768 8 bpp, and (if configured using
32          INSTALL.EXE under DOS) 800x600 8 bpp are supported by the mach8.

cyclone3d wrote on 2023-04-02, 21:28:

Getting ready to test this, but I decided to look at the NT 4.0 drivers first.

Thank you for checking and 1600 x 1200 x 16-bit colour would make me a very happy bunny 😀

I was looking at was was possible on my 4MB PCI 86C968-P (Diamond Stealth64) earlier today which offers almost the same, but noted such as 1280 x 1024 x 16-bit @ 60 Hz did not display well on my Dell 2007FP, but @ 75 Hz did so it would be good to know what rates are supported. I am biased, but feel SIV displays this information well.