ubiq wrote on 2023-06-29, 20:23:

A riser card that provides 2 x PCI slots and 1 x ISA slot yet doesn't use a custom edge connector. I find it odd the lengths this thing goes to provide three slots and then only have two of them usable at once.

This adapter seems to be made to use mass-market standard boards (like your BF6) in slim desktop cases (that aren't high enough to provide space for 3 slots). The PCI-or-ISA position is for increased flexibility, just as they have a shared PCI/ISA slot on many PCI boards, too.

ubiq wrote on 2023-06-29, 20:23:

It's got this wee little PCI adapter, I'm assuming only these 7 pins on the PCI bus are addressed:

If you mean "only these 7 pins on the PCI bus aren't just connected between on all slots", that's exactly how it works. The 7 per-slot pins are the four interrupt pins (INTA, INTB, INTC, INTD); two busmastering pins (REQ, GNT), and the configuration cycle slot select pin (IDSEL).

ubiq wrote on 2023-06-29, 20:23:

Here's what it looks like on a BF6 with some cards stuffed in it:
Obviously this isn't the use case... 😂

Well, I think this is close to the intended use case, but likely not for an AGP-equipped board, and definitely not with non-low-profile cards plugged into the board at the same time.

nice but with a full height Video card it defeats the purpose of a riser.

Yes yes, I apologize for not owning a low pro AGP card. I don't currently have a use for this thing at all, I just thought it was neat, and having it opens up possibilities.

At least I've confirmed that the little "PCI LINK" adapter is for the lower slot meaning it can just be unplugged if using the ISA slot (or vice versa).

mkarcher wrote on 2023-06-29, 20:45:

If you mean "only these 7 pins on the PCI bus aren't just connected between on all slots", that's exactly how it works. The 7 per-slot pins are the four interrupt pins (INTA, INTB, INTC, INTD); two busmastering pins (REQ, GNT), and the configuration cycle slot select pin (IDSEL).

The four interrupt pins also tend to be shared amongst pci slots in a staggered manner, ie INTA on the first slot being INTB on the next, INTC on the third and INTD on the fourth, same for B, C & D.
Mainboards with more than 4 pci slots use different layouts or setups like using a bridge chip to add more slots.
etc...

ubiq wrote on 2023-06-29, 20:23:

I found this weird thing and had to have it: IMG_5384.jpeg IMG_5385.jpeg […]
Show full quote

I found this weird thing and had to have it:
IMG_5384.jpeg
IMG_5385.jpeg

A riser card that provides 2 x PCI slots and 1 x ISA slot yet doesn't use a custom edge connector. I find it odd the lengths this thing goes to provide three slots and then only have two of them usable at once.

It's got this wee little PCI adapter, I'm assuming only these 7 pins on the PCI bus are addressed:
IMG_5386.jpeg

Here's what it looks like on a BF6 with some cards stuffed in it:
IMG_5387.jpeg

Obviously this isn't the use case... 😂

How it work? ISA and PCI share the same data-bus??? all is connected only to isa mainboard and without adding some kind of bridge chip

PcBytes wrote on 2023-06-29, 19:40:

Interesting... there's the BHC as well which seems to be a mobile variant of it?

BHC is SQFP package. All other specs seem to be the same as for BGC variant.
Not sure if that's a chip especially meant for mobile use, but could well be.
But I seem to remember that it's also used on some tuning kits like from Kingston (don't have the correct name on hand atm).
So presumably just the same chip only in another package.

AlessandroB wrote on 2023-06-30, 07:01:

ubiq wrote on 2023-06-29, 20:23:

I found this weird thing and had to have it: IMG_5384.jpeg IMG_5385.jpeg […]
Show full quote

I found this weird thing and had to have it:
IMG_5384.jpeg
IMG_5385.jpeg

A riser card that provides 2 x PCI slots and 1 x ISA slot yet doesn't use a custom edge connector. I find it odd the lengths this thing goes to provide three slots and then only have two of them usable at once.

It's got this wee little PCI adapter, I'm assuming only these 7 pins on the PCI bus are addressed:
IMG_5386.jpeg

Here's what it looks like on a BF6 with some cards stuffed in it:
IMG_5387.jpeg

Obviously this isn't the use case... 😂

How it work? ISA and PCI share the same data-bus??? all is connected only to isa mainboard and without adding some kind of bridge chip

No, it's a simple riser.
The ISA port of the riser is plugged in an ISA slot from the motherboard with a ribbon cable.

There is a little trick with the PCI slots because all PCI slots are sharing most of the bus lines.
The riser plugs in a PCI slot, providing all the signal lines. And there is a small cable that plugs into a second PCI slot on the motherboard to provide the signals specific to this slot (for interrupts, etc...)

(please correct me if i'm wrong)

acl wrote on 2023-06-30, 09:53:

No, it's a simple riser. The ISA port of the riser is plugged in an ISA slot from the motherboard with a ribbon cable. […]
Show full quote

AlessandroB wrote on 2023-06-30, 07:01:

ubiq wrote on 2023-06-29, 20:23:

I found this weird thing and had to have it: IMG_5384.jpeg IMG_5385.jpeg […]
Show full quote

I found this weird thing and had to have it:
IMG_5384.jpeg
IMG_5385.jpeg

A riser card that provides 2 x PCI slots and 1 x ISA slot yet doesn't use a custom edge connector. I find it odd the lengths this thing goes to provide three slots and then only have two of them usable at once.

It's got this wee little PCI adapter, I'm assuming only these 7 pins on the PCI bus are addressed:
IMG_5386.jpeg

Here's what it looks like on a BF6 with some cards stuffed in it:
IMG_5387.jpeg

Obviously this isn't the use case... 😂

How it work? ISA and PCI share the same data-bus??? all is connected only to isa mainboard and without adding some kind of bridge chip

No, it's a simple riser.
The ISA port of the riser is plugged in an ISA slot from the motherboard with a ribbon cable.

There is a little trick with the PCI slots because all PCI slots are sharing most of the bus lines.
The riser plugs in a PCI slot, providing all the signal lines. And there is a small cable that plugs into a second PCI slot on the motherboard to provide the signals specific to this slot (for interrupts, etc...)

(please correct me if i'm wrong)

ok, i did not see the other pci connector on the rise, everithing clear now

ISA is 16 bit, PCI is 32, so what is going on, it gives a 16 bit PCI port at ~8Mhz, or multiplexes it and you get 32 bit at an effective 4Mhz or what??

Bought PCI-E graphics adapter for another project with W98SE, but looks a little strange: I always thought Sapphire only had a Toxic version on the X700 with AC Silencer and it was customised. Here, it looks like a standard AC Silencer ATI 1, but on a red PCB with blue RAM coolers, and it looks like it's a factory model (not replaced cooler from the previous owner)? Weird.

BitWrangler wrote on 2023-06-30, 13:55:

ISA is 16 bit, PCI is 32, so what is going on, it gives a 16 bit PCI port at ~8Mhz, or multiplexes it and you get 32 bit at an effective 4Mhz or what??

look at the picture carefully, there are two edge connectors 😀

Ydee wrote on 2023-06-30, 14:18:

Bought PCI-E graphics adapter for another project with W98SE, but looks a little strange: I always thought Sapphire only had a Toxic version on the X700 with AC Silencer and it was customised. Here, it looks like a standard AC Silencer ATI 1, but on a red PCB with blue RAM coolers, and it looks like it's a factory model (not replaced cooler from the previous owner)? Weird.

Exact same card on vgamuseum https://www.vgamuseum.info/index.php/companie … radeon-x700-pro

rasz_pl wrote on 2023-06-30, 14:52:

BitWrangler wrote on 2023-06-30, 13:55:

ISA is 16 bit, PCI is 32, so what is going on, it gives a 16 bit PCI port at ~8Mhz, or multiplexes it and you get 32 bit at an effective 4Mhz or what??

look at the picture carefully, there are two edge connectors 😀

Derp, somehow missed seeing the one on the main board. Yah I got it now, extra PCI board is because slot nearest ISA is least likely to be full master if 4 or 5 slot motherboard, so extra lines.

PC Hoarder Patrol wrote on 2023-06-30, 15:16:

Exact same card on vgamuseum https://www.vgamuseum.info/index.php/companie … radeon-x700-pro

Yes, that's what led me to think it was the original condition. According to PN and SKU, no more detailed info can be found.
But I'm amazed they didn't customized the cooler with their own sticker with the Sapphir logo or something similar.

Ydee wrote on 2023-06-30, 15:40:

PC Hoarder Patrol wrote on 2023-06-30, 15:16:

Exact same card on vgamuseum https://www.vgamuseum.info/index.php/companie … radeon-x700-pro

Yes, that's what led me to think it was the original condition. According to PN and SKU, no more detailed info can be found.
But I'm amazed they didn't customized the cooler with their own sticker with the Sapphir logo or something similar.

It seems that the cooler have two different connectors.
One with 2 pins (connected to the card) and an alternative 3 pin one (not connected).
I don't know why they kept the two connectors out of the factory.
If the card is in its original condition, then the cooler itself is probably "off the shelf" and factory attached.

There are also some cards (from other series) that were factory equipped with Zalman coolers.

weedeewee wrote on 2023-06-30, 06:29:

mkarcher wrote on 2023-06-29, 20:45:

If you mean "only these 7 pins on the PCI bus aren't just connected between on all slots", that's exactly how it works. The 7 per-slot pins are the four interrupt pins (INTA, INTB, INTC, INTD); two busmastering pins (REQ, GNT), and the configuration cycle slot select pin (IDSEL).

The four interrupt pins also tend to be shared amongst pci slots in a staggered manner, ie INTA on the first slot being INTB on the next, INTC on the third and INTD on the fourth, same for B, C & D.

That's true, but there is no standard on the direction of staggering and the counting direction of IDs. The mainboard BIOS knows the board-specific mapping between ID pins and IRQ input pins to the host bridge. If you want a universal riser card to provide two PCI slots, you need to grab two IDSEL pins from two different slots, and route INTA to INTD to the respective slot IDSEL is selected to, because otherwise the actual mapping of IRQ lines wouldn't match the mapping expected by the BIOS and communicated to the OS. A riser like this thus needs to grab INTA to INTD twice: Once for the "primary" slot on the edge connector and a second time in a likely different order on the "secondary" slot using the break-out board.

mkarcher wrote on 2023-06-30, 17:31:

weedeewee wrote on 2023-06-30, 06:29:

mkarcher wrote on 2023-06-29, 20:45:

If you mean "only these 7 pins on the PCI bus aren't just connected between on all slots", that's exactly how it works. The 7 per-slot pins are the four interrupt pins (INTA, INTB, INTC, INTD); two busmastering pins (REQ, GNT), and the configuration cycle slot select pin (IDSEL).

The four interrupt pins also tend to be shared amongst pci slots in a staggered manner, ie INTA on the first slot being INTB on the next, INTC on the third and INTD on the fourth, same for B, C & D.

That's true, but there is no standard on the direction of staggering and the counting direction of IDs. The mainboard BIOS knows the board-specific mapping between ID pins and IRQ input pins to the host bridge. If you want a universal riser card to provide two PCI slots, you need to grab two IDSEL pins from two different slots, and route INTA to INTD to the respective slot IDSEL is selected to, because otherwise the actual mapping of IRQ lines wouldn't match the mapping expected by the BIOS and communicated to the OS. A riser like this thus needs to grab INTA to INTD twice: Once for the "primary" slot on the edge connector and a second time in a likely different order on the "secondary" slot using the break-out board.

Cool yeah that's mostly what I figured, thanks for the exact details! This is why every other 2+ slot PCI riser I've seen uses a custom edge connector. Never seen a universal solution before - is this rare or just rare to me?

Anyway, love that it goes the extra mile and gives you a choice between ISA and PCI for the lower slot. Once chosen you can omit the bit you don't need.
PCI:

ISA:

Of course some sicko could try and get in there and use all three slots...

Also it looks like the ISA ribbon cables are standard 50-pin SCSI so that opens up more possibilities..

ubiq wrote on 2023-06-30, 19:44:

Also it looks like the ISA ribbon cables are standard 50-pin SCSI so that opens up more possibilities..

Which makes a lot of sense. This kind of ISA bus extender isn't exactly rocket science, so choosing a cabling solution you can get at a good price is likely one of the more challenging jobs in designing this riser card. 50-pin 1.27mm cables are commonly available, for example due to their use as SCSI cables, and these IDC crimp connectors are dirt cheap. Counting the contacts on a 16-bit ISA slot reveals that there are exactly 98 pins, which is a perfect match for 2*50 pins. Furthermore, the contact spacing on the ISA bus is 2.54mm on each side of the PCB, so a cable with a lead spacing of 1.27mm is the perfect fit for connecting to both sides.

Or putting it simple: It feels like any other solution than 2* SCSI-like cable will be more difficult to design, more difficult to source, more expensive and have no real-life advantage. Props to the engineers to choosing this solution.

Skorbin wrote on 2023-06-29, 13:02:

It's interesting that MATROX was able to put 4 x G200A with 8 MB SGRAM each and even an additional TV tuner on one card.

They've gone even further. I read of a weird card with 4 x G200 and 8 monitor outputs. It was designed to create video walls like Hantarex.
Cabling was really ugly but who cares if it is not mass market product.

@froller
i would be surprised if you could get 8 monitor outputs with 4 x G200.
AFAIK, a G200 can only drive a single screen.

Anyway, if you want to go nuts, you can take 4 of those G200 MMS Quads and use 16 screens at the same time 😀
And yes, that's officially supported, but I don't know if for all OS.