VOGONS


Reply 100 of 163, by Caluser2000

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tannerstevo wrote on 2021-07-10, 18:42:

IMO, asking what is the Most stable and compatible win9x configuration, is kind of like going to a car collectors forum and asking "What is the best motor oil."

I actually know the anser to that one.

And it is not Castrol Carstor oil....😉

There's a glitch in the matrix.
A founding member of the 286 appreciation society.
Apparently 32-bit is dead and nobody likes P4s.
Of course, as always, I'm open to correction...😉

Reply 101 of 163, by cyclone3d

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Caluser2000 wrote on 2021-07-10, 19:36:
tannerstevo wrote on 2021-07-10, 18:42:

IMO, asking what is the Most stable and compatible win9x configuration, is kind of like going to a car collectors forum and asking "What is the best motor oil."

I actually know the anser to that one.

And it is not Castrol Carstor oil....😉

Haha. I've been using Mobile 1 Full Synthetic oil in my vehicles for years.

Best affordable oil IMHO.

2005 Scion TC I bought brand new has about 236k miles and I've never had to do any internal engine work whatsoever. I did have to replace the valve cover gasket at around 230k miles though because it finally dried out and started leaking.

Our 2007 Sienna has about the same mileage but we didn't get it till it had over 150k miles.

I still don't have to add any oil in between oil changes for either of these though I do make sure to top it off if we are going on a long trip.

I also use the same oil to oil computer and other fans and it works great.

Yamaha YMF modified setupds and drivers
Yamaha XG resource repository - updated November 27, 2018
Yamaha YMF7x4 Guide
AW744L II - YMF744 - AOpen Cobra Sound Card - Install SB-Link Header

Reply 102 of 163, by cyclone3d

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mothergoose729 wrote on 2021-07-10, 18:22:
Scoob wrote on 2021-07-10, 15:02:
Short version: Thank you guys, I'll get a P4 based on intel chiset and a Geforce of some kind, and a plain pci audio card or eve […]
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Short version: Thank you guys, I'll get a P4 based on intel chiset and a Geforce of some kind, and a plain pci audio card or even use the onboard if it behaves.

Regarding the sound I'm not picky at all. I'd be happy to use the ESS if I had an ISA slot if that would mean to be trouble free, my initial thought was the awe 64... because it seems to be very common 1997 onwards. I'm thinking one of thouse yamaha pci cards or even a creative one based on the ensoniq chips

I want to thank you all for the knowledge sharing.
With all this new information I'm set on, in this order:

- give my windows 10 laptop a try (this would be the most convenient, but i'm not too confident)
- IF NOT THEN fresh win98 install on my duron machine and new drivers (I discovered putting the ram module on other slot apparently resolves the instability issues, and also on the other slot it does not boot at all )
- IF NOT THEN do a couple upgrades, like an athlon and a better graphics card (by the way the tnt2 is M64, so I'll expect it to be soon)
- IF NOT THEN go for an intel chipset and PIII or P4 with a geforce and run older titles in software mode / if I fell the need get a 3dfx addon

Sounds sweet! We are here to help when you get everything setup.

There is really no reason not to get a sb live! or a audigy 2zs. An ESS is good for DOS, but this is a windows machine. Also, you probably won't find a P4 board with an ISA slot anyway.

There are plenty of industrial S478 boards out there with fully functional ISA slots. The problem is the price.

Yamaha YMF modified setupds and drivers
Yamaha XG resource repository - updated November 27, 2018
Yamaha YMF7x4 Guide
AW744L II - YMF744 - AOpen Cobra Sound Card - Install SB-Link Header

Reply 103 of 163, by kjliew

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Scoob wrote on 2021-07-10, 15:02:

- give my windows 10 laptop a try (this would be the most convenient, but i'm not too confident)

Feel free to take a glance at my YouTube channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCl8InhZs1ixZ … rMDSWd0A/videos
Most of the video demos were done on Ryzen 2500U thin-and-light laptop with Arch Linux but would be similar for Windows 10 as I have both on the same laptop for dual-boot. If you wish to see video demos of other games of your interests, then feel free to ping me here.

Reply 104 of 163, by britain4

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I will always recommend 98SE/98lite with one of the 95 shell swaps for this — all of my current systems are running it, it’s about as quick and lightweight as 95 but you get the superior stability and driver+USB support of 98SE

- AMD K6-II 400MHZ, PCChips M598LMR, Voodoo
- P-MMX 233MHz, FIC PA2013, S3 ViRGE + Voodoo
- PII 400MHz, MSI MS6119, ATI Rage Pro Turbo + Voodoo2 SLI
- PIII 933MHz, ECS P6IPAT, Voodoo5 5500
- Toshiba Libretto 110CT, 300MHz, 96MB RAM

Reply 105 of 163, by Socket3

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For win9x compatibility you can go as high as socket 478 or LGA775 / socket A, 754 or 939 using the intel i865 chipset for the intel platform and the VIA KT800 for the AMD platform.

For optimal compatibility I'd stick with something a bit older then that, platforms that have official support for windows 98. For intel that's usually socket 370 chipsets - Via Apollo PRO or intel 810/815, alltough some manufacturers include windows 98 drivers for their i865 socket 478 motherboards (asus p4p800, gigabyte GA-8IG1000-G) and even their LGA775 i865 boards (asrock, biostar, foxconn). For AMD platforms you can find official windows 98 support up to the VIA KT600 chipset for all manufacturers and sometimes you can find win98 driver for nforce 3 boards as well, but I've had stability issues with nforce boards and win9x.

For stability, I'd say use new old stock or refurbished hardware. My Abit ST6 runs a treat after recapping, but the caveat is I've recapped the board twice in 10 or so years... despite using Panasonic low-esr capacitors (maybe they were fake?) . This time around I sourced rubicon caps witch I payed a small fortune for (to recap the whole board).

You'll probably get better results with refurbished hardware, since I came across several new old stock motherboards witch I've had to recap, despite them being sealed.

Reply 106 of 163, by Intel486dx33

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AlexZ wrote on 2021-07-03, 16:33:

440BX has AGP 2x but it works with AGP 8x cards (those that have 2 slits). GeForce FX5200 are dirt cheap, FX5500 also obtainable and cheap. No need to lash out on AWE64, those are very expensive. Just get a cheap SB Live!, it has a DOS driver.

I have to agree.
Back around 1998 the Intel BX440 motherboard was very popular as a high end workstation motherboard.
One stick of 128mb or 256mb of PC-133 SDRAM should be enough for Win98 gaming
IDE hard drive should be good enough for Win98 gaming.
I use the Sound Blaster Live 5.1 in my Win98se builds and it sounds great and works great.

Not sure about which video card you prefer for gaming ?
FX5500
TNT2
Riva
Geforce 2

Reply 107 of 163, by AlexZ

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Intel486dx33 wrote on 2021-07-11, 11:06:
I have to agree. Back around 1998 the Intel BX440 motherboard was very popular as a high end workstation motherboard. One stick […]
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I have to agree.
Back around 1998 the Intel BX440 motherboard was very popular as a high end workstation motherboard.
One stick of 128mb or 256mb of PC-133 SDRAM should be enough for Win98 gaming
IDE hard drive should be good enough for Win98 gaming.
I use the Sound Blaster Live 5.1 in my Win98se builds and it sounds great and works great.

Not sure about which video card you prefer for gaming ?
FX5500
TNT2
Riva
Geforce 2

FX5500 for sure. The rest is suitable for slower CPUs like K6 or Pentium MMX. Any 440BX owner should on the hunt for GeForce FXxxxx or GeForce 4 Ti.

Pentium III 900E, ECS P6BXT-A+, 384MB RAM, NVIDIA GeForce FX 5600 128MB, Voodoo 2 12MB, 80GB HDD, Yamaha SM718 ISA, 19" AOC 9GlrA
Athlon 64 3400+, MSI K8T Neo V, 1GB RAM, NVIDIA GeForce 7600GT 256MB, 250GB HDD, Sound Blaster Audigy 2 ZS

Reply 108 of 163, by Intel486dx33

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AlexZ wrote on 2021-07-11, 12:38:
Intel486dx33 wrote on 2021-07-11, 11:06:
I have to agree. Back around 1998 the Intel BX440 motherboard was very popular as a high end workstation motherboard. One stick […]
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I have to agree.
Back around 1998 the Intel BX440 motherboard was very popular as a high end workstation motherboard.
One stick of 128mb or 256mb of PC-133 SDRAM should be enough for Win98 gaming
IDE hard drive should be good enough for Win98 gaming.
I use the Sound Blaster Live 5.1 in my Win98se builds and it sounds great and works great.

Not sure about which video card you prefer for gaming ?
FX5500
TNT2
Riva
Geforce 2

FX5500 for sure. The rest is suitable for slower CPUs like K6 or Pentium MMX. Any 440BX owner should on the hunt for GeForce FXxxxx or GeForce 4 Ti.

Yes, back in 1998 the Pentium II 400mhz was popular in OEM workstation computers running Win98se.
Maybe a Pentium III 500mhz would be better.

Reply 109 of 163, by AlexZ

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Intel486dx33 wrote on 2021-07-11, 13:12:

Yes, back in 1998 the Pentium II 400mhz was popular in OEM workstation computers running Win98se.
Maybe a Pentium III 500mhz would be better.

Pentium III 500 Katmai is good for older boards which can't supply ~1.65V required by later models. It runs on 2V just like PII. For newer boards PIII Coppermine should be preferred.

Pentium III 900E, ECS P6BXT-A+, 384MB RAM, NVIDIA GeForce FX 5600 128MB, Voodoo 2 12MB, 80GB HDD, Yamaha SM718 ISA, 19" AOC 9GlrA
Athlon 64 3400+, MSI K8T Neo V, 1GB RAM, NVIDIA GeForce 7600GT 256MB, 250GB HDD, Sound Blaster Audigy 2 ZS

Reply 110 of 163, by Socket3

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I'd go for a socket 370 platform. 440bx slot 1 motherboards are more expensive then a late socket 370 boards witch can be had for as little as 10$ second hand or 45$ new . New means stability, and that seems to be what you're most interested in. Here's a link: https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/VIA-69 … .220b4534VcRUz6 The seller also claims that is supports Tualatin chips, and Ithere are a couple of youtube videos of this board. In one it's even running a 1400MHz tualatin celeron.

Better yet, if you can score a VIA C3 CPU (the faster the better) you will be able to run anything from 80's dos games to late win98 games, since the VIA C3's multiplier and cache can be changed while the computer is running using setmul.
They're not expensive either - a 866MHz C3 can be had for 20$, while 35$ should get you a 1200MHz version. I recommend the latter because the C3's floating point performance is weak, so a 1200MHz chip should perform on par with a 600-700MHz pentium 3. https://www.ebay.com/b/VIA-Computer-Processor … /164/bn_2794436

It's like heaving a 386, 486, pentium and pentium III all in one machine.

So a brand new mainboard for 45$, 1200MHz VIA C3 for 35$, 256MB of new old stock PC133 SDRAM ~ 12 to 15$. A 440bx rig will get you well over that - a decent mainboard alone (second hand) is 80-120$. Slot 1 CPUs are cheap - at least most pentium II's are, but if you want a later 800+ mhz slot 1 pentium 3, be prepared to shell out some serious cash since you'd need the 100MHz front side bus version, as the 440BX does not support FSB 133.

As for a video card - it shouldn't really matter. I'd say try to get a hold of a voodoo 3 simply because it has glide support as well as great dos games compatibility - but they are expensive... a geforce FX 5500 as mentioned above will work fine, and you can find a NEW FX 5500 AGP for 25-30$ on alibaba.

Good luck with your build!

Reply 111 of 163, by AlexZ

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Socket3 wrote on 2021-07-11, 20:57:
I'd go for a socket 370 platform. 440bx slot 1 motherboards are more expensive then a late socket 370 boards witch can be had fo […]
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I'd go for a socket 370 platform. 440bx slot 1 motherboards are more expensive then a late socket 370 boards witch can be had for as little as 10$ second hand or 45$ new . New means stability, and that seems to be what you're most interested in. Here's a link: https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/VIA-69 … .220b4534VcRUz6 The seller also claims that is supports Tualatin chips, and Ithere are a couple of youtube videos of this board. In one it's even running a 1400MHz tualatin celeron.

So a brand new mainboard for 45$, 1200MHz VIA C3 for 35$, 256MB of new old stock PC133 SDRAM ~ 12 to 15$. A 440bx rig will get you well over that - a decent mainboard alone (second hand) is 80-120$. Slot 1 CPUs are cheap - at least most pentium II's are, but if you want a later 800+ mhz slot 1 pentium 3, be prepared to shell out some serious cash since you'd need the 100MHz front side bus version, as the 440BX does not support FSB 133.

As for a video card - it shouldn't really matter. I'd say try to get a hold of a voodoo 3 simply because it has glide support as well as great dos games compatibility - but they are expensive... a geforce FX 5500 as mentioned above will work fine, and you can find a NEW FX 5500 AGP for 25-30$ on alibaba.

Good luck with your build!

Price will be a significant factor for sure as it can turn everything upside down. My PIII 600 CPU cost me 8€, motherboard 10€ (dual slot1+socket 370), Yamaha ISA sound card 2€, Voodoo 2 cost me 2€ (still not operational as I haven't bought a VGA cable for it yet). You can get parts very cheap if you don't buy from speculators on ebay. People sometimes give away other parts like CRT monitors for free. I also got one socket 754 rig for free. I just buy very cheap parts and ignore speculators. Not all parts can be bought that cheap but on average the cost is negligible. Being patient is key. Starting with a specific hardware configuration is going to be more expensive. Buying what's available is cheapest.

Pentium III 900E, ECS P6BXT-A+, 384MB RAM, NVIDIA GeForce FX 5600 128MB, Voodoo 2 12MB, 80GB HDD, Yamaha SM718 ISA, 19" AOC 9GlrA
Athlon 64 3400+, MSI K8T Neo V, 1GB RAM, NVIDIA GeForce 7600GT 256MB, 250GB HDD, Sound Blaster Audigy 2 ZS

Reply 112 of 163, by cyclone3d

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You can still use that Voodoo 2. You don't have to have a pass-through cable. Just swap the monitor cable over the the Voodoo 2 card after starting the game or use a monitor with multiple inputs or use a VGA switchbox... though the switchbox will generally degrade the signal quite a bit unless you have a nice, properly designed one that isn't just a bunch of jumbled unshielded wires on the inside.

Yamaha YMF modified setupds and drivers
Yamaha XG resource repository - updated November 27, 2018
Yamaha YMF7x4 Guide
AW744L II - YMF744 - AOpen Cobra Sound Card - Install SB-Link Header

Reply 113 of 163, by Scoob

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Thanks you guys for all the support, but I might be hitting the end of the road on this. Every ram slot stopped working. I bought a bundle with a ram module, duron 1200, athlon 1000 and a radeon 9200. With the Athlon it boots fine but states is a 500mhz model... I have the feeling I spent too much time swapping hardware and not gaming at all... And the issues keep on coming.

Gaming on my laptop is a no go. I guess because 64bit os and stufg like qemu seems more work configuring and less play.

So I will go for a 440bx p3 a voodoo3 and an awe64 or a 865 p4 with a geforce2 and sblive...

Reply 114 of 163, by kjliew

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Scoob wrote on 2021-07-14, 22:32:

I have the feeling I spent too much time swapping hardware and not gaming at all... And the issues keep on coming.

Scoob wrote on 2021-07-14, 22:32:

Gaming on my laptop is a no go. I guess because 64bit os and stufg like qemu seems more work configuring and less play.

Aren't they the same?! 🤣 I am sorry if I was perceived as nagging. I don't deny it is a steep learning curve to use QEMU for games, but once it was mastered, one would forget all about keeping old computers/hardware just for games. There is no such thing called "free lunch" in this world ... 😉

Reply 115 of 163, by mistermister

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I have a build using a Athlon 64 3200+, MSI K8T-Neo motherboard with Via chipset, ESS Solo-1s sound card, FX5900 video card. This is based on a philscomputerlab youtube video, look it up. I think Phil used a Sempron to go for even lower speeds. With the K8 cpu and caches disabled, it performs like a 486. It also has support in Setmul for processor speed multipliers. Mine can finely adjust from ~ 486DX33 to 486DX2-80 (15 increments in that range). According to the speed sensitive games list there may be a few from 1992-93 that need a 386 but there are not many and I have not tested them yet. The key thing about this build is parts are cheap and readily available, I bought the motherboards with CPU and cooler for ~$30 on the auction site. It is a full ATX motherboard so you would need a decent sized case. Personally the case is important to me, and the early 2000's era had some interesting options.
You could go with a cheaper video card like an FX5200 (get one with a 128 bit memory interface). Performance in Win98 is of course beyond anything you would need, probably good to 2003 or later, basically end of Win98 The Solo-1 is not as common as an SBLive but they can be obtained for not that much money. DOS compatibility is close to best in class for a PCI card without PC/PCI cable, provided you have the right motherboard chipset . Mine has a wavetable header which is very useful for DOS midi games if you want to eventually get a wavetable board. You just have to get the right parts so that they work properly in DOS.

My 440BX is a Dell T600R model, it is pretty much bullet proof in Windows and most DOS games work fine. Has an ISA slot. I upgraded mine to 1ghz using a cheap passive slotket and s370 coppermine cpu. If there is interest in upgrading, you should verify the motherboard revision can handle the cpu that you want. I have another 440BX which is a Gateway, it is a 440BX-2 (I think) and can only take a P3-600 Katmai. The Dell is nice looking and they come up for sale pretty often at sub-$100 prices even on the auction site. I got lucky with mine purchased there, it had an Aureal Vortex2 hiding inside. I put a Geforce3 Ti200 in it and later added a Voodoo3 PCI. It can pay yr2000 games, not as fast as the Athlon 64 and cache disabled speed is 386 which might be less useful. If I had to keep one it would probably be the Athlon 64, but fortunately I get to keep both. The 440BX is more authentic and allows for playing around with ISA sound cards, but the Athlon 64 has best case for Windows performance and easy way to slow it to the very useful 486 speed range.

Either of these options would do a lot of what you want. There is a learning curve but lots of info is out there especially in Vogons, many threads with relevant information to sort out the details. These are paths I took and am happy with so I thought I should share.

Good Luck!

Reply 116 of 163, by chinny22

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Was going to say given your run of bad luck you may be better off with a OEM system to start with, Seems mistermister beat me to it!

Also agree for P3 Dell and Gateway are good choices as they got their motherboards direst from Intel.

The Dell Dimension XPS Txxx (To give it's full name) range is a good choice. The xxx is what CPU the PC originally came with.
Dell Slot 1 also came with the Yamaha YMF for onboard sound, it lacks true dos support but a REALLY good card if playing dos games within windows.
Only issue with Dell of this era is they used a non standard ATX pinout. The Dell PSU's are good quality but it's still a prick move.
It is pretty easy to convert back to standard ATX if your good with a soldering Iron
Re: A Permanent Solution to the Dell 'Fake ATX' Power Supply Problem?

Gateway GP7 should also be able to handle later CPU's AFAIK while the GP6 series were Original P2 based and max out with a 600 Katmai
They do have a standard PSU but the onboard Ensonic based SoundBlaster 64 PCI is less desirable but does work in both dos and windows.

Or you should be able to pick up a Dell, HP, or any other OEM brand 865 based P4 for next to nothing. Sadly this is when the Cap plague was at it's worst (My Dell, HP and Asus boards all have swollen caps) but with the machines been so cheap you can just run it into the ground then decide if its worth repairing or replacing.

Reply 117 of 163, by keenmaster486

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There is a DOS driver for the Yamaha YMF chips on those Dell XPS motherboards that will initialize the chip for use in DOS.

I flermmed the plootash just like you asked.
World's foremost 486 enjoyer.

Reply 118 of 163, by Scoob

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Aren't they the same?! 🤣 I am sorry if I was perceived as nagging. I don't deny it is a steep learning curve to use QEMU for games, but once it was mastered, one would forget all about keeping old computers/hardware just for games. There is no such thing called "free lunch" in this world ... 😉

Not at all a nag! I even tried qemu. But I invested on researching the hardware, and I got the idea for a 440 Bx and a voodoo3 from this forum, so I prefer to put together a pc that has the approval of several people that know their stuff.

Me lazy. Vogoneers do all the work years of experiments. Me play no trouble.

Just to remember the project is a windows 9x Exclusive gaming PC. Not even the tiniest concern about ms-dos.

There is no options in the bios to change multiplier. Why am I stuck with 500? The seller assured me it is 1.0GHz athlon.
I have no idea how I played max payne on the tnt2 back in the day.
The 9200 might be cheap but it is huge difference from the tnt2, why would they even sell it in 2003?
The pc itself was not expensive at all, and I get it, matsonic with via chipset and a duron. But a tnt2 m64?! I feel retroactively scammed 😌

Reply 119 of 163, by chinny22

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keenmaster486 wrote on 2021-07-15, 14:35:

There is a DOS driver for the Yamaha YMF chips on those Dell XPS motherboards that will initialize the chip for use in DOS.

oh yeh, I didn't fully remember correctly. You get sound but no MIDI, unless you know of a driver that enables this as well which would be awesome.

Scoob wrote on 2021-07-15, 19:57:
There is no options in the bios to change multiplier. Why am I stuck with 500? The seller assured me it is 1.0GHz athlon. I have […]
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There is no options in the bios to change multiplier. Why am I stuck with 500? The seller assured me it is 1.0GHz athlon.
I have no idea how I played max payne on the tnt2 back in the day.
The 9200 might be cheap but it is huge difference from the tnt2, why would they even sell it in 2003?
The pc itself was not expensive at all, and I get it, matsonic with via chipset and a duron. But a tnt2 m64?! I feel retroactively scammed 😌

Maybe its not jumped correctly? which exact motherboard do you have? You can always remove the heatsink and confirm what CPU you have as well.
Poor old TNT spent most it's life as a budget card. We got a TNT2 in late 99 and even then it had been knocked off the top shelf by the GF256.
I'd agree for a pure 9x build you want something faster.