VOGONS


First post, by JustRob

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Got this in a box of parts... I thought cpus usually had a bigger metal surface on top, but this one only has this small square. Do I put thermal paste on the board itself too, or just that small bit in the center?

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Reply 1 of 21, by zapbuzz

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just the small bit in the center 😀
Besides even if you did cover the whole chip the green area wouldn't come into contact with the heatsink.
(Igot 2 of those chips and my advice is applied to them running nice and cool)

Reply 3 of 21, by Jasin Natael

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JustRob wrote on 2021-11-09, 16:13:

Got this in a box of parts... I thought cpus usually had a bigger metal surface on top, but this one only has this small square. Do I put thermal paste on the board itself too, or just that small bit in the center?

The large metal square you are referring to is called the Integrated Heat Spreader, or IHS. It is simply a flat metal piece that is covering the substrate (green) area and the actual CPU die (the small square).
There is a thermal interface material in-between the die and the IHS, sometimes solder sometimes a specialized thermal compound.

Regardless nearly ALL CPU's will look like the one you have pictured once the IHS is removed. This is called de-lidding. Some enthusiasts will do this in order to cool to bare die for overclocking.

Reply 4 of 21, by dormcat

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JustRob, this is a typical packaging of Socket 370 Coppermine Pentium 3 / Celeron and Socket 462 Athlon / Athlon XP / Duron / Sempron processors. Here's another example:

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Exposing the die can increase the rate of heat dissipation (by contacting the die directly to a heatsink) and reduce the amount of thermal paste needed, but can also increase the risk of chipping the die when installing a heatsink. AMD processors have soft pads at four corners (see the photo above) to reduce this risk but Intel processors have no such device, so be careful while lowering your heatsink onto that CPU.

Reply 5 of 21, by RaiderOfLostVoodoo

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dormcat wrote on 2021-11-09, 18:09:

Exposing the die can increase the rate of heat dissipation (by contacting the die directly to a heatsink) and reduce the amount of thermal paste needed, but can also increase the risk of chipping the die when installing a heatsink. AMD processors have soft pads at four corners (see the photo above) to reduce this risk but Intel processors have no such device, so be careful while lowering your heatsink onto that CPU.

Yupp.
Got this CPU last week:

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Have a look at the bottom left corner.
No post, no beep.
But in that case I didn't care. It's a crap CPU anyway and came with a mainboard. I just wanted the mainboard. Got a small refund for the broken CPU, which is nice, because I don't have to sell it now.
Same thing happened to me in the past with old Socket 462 Athlons. Thermalpaste back in the day used to become super dry and hard. I did ruin 2 old Athlons when I removed the cooler.
Coppermines (like the one in your picture) are a bit more durable.

Some people these days even remove the heatspreader from modern CPUs, so they can put the cooler directly on the die.
It's called delidding. There are plenty of tutorials on Youtube.

Reply 6 of 21, by zapbuzz

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wow what a twist this thread is becoming de-lidding and getting a part refund for damaging stuff 🤣
seriusly its intel and all i see is a contaminated lid. The lids are basically impossible to remove from a socket 370 coppermine.
If it were an AMD it would be different.
Looks exactly like my ones they have lids like that too.
leave the lids alone geez 😀

Reply 7 of 21, by RaiderOfLostVoodoo

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zapbuzz wrote on 2021-11-09, 18:28:

getting a part refund for damaging stuff 🤣

I didn't damage it.
The seller damaged it, when he took off the cooler.
Just a reminder to be extremely careful when handling Socket 370/462 CPUs.

Reply 8 of 21, by Doornkaat

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zapbuzz wrote on 2021-11-09, 18:28:
wow what a twist this thread is becoming de-lidding and getting a part refund for damaging stuff lol seriusly its intel and all […]
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wow what a twist this thread is becoming de-lidding and getting a part refund for damaging stuff 🤣
seriusly its intel and all i see is a contaminated lid. The lids are basically impossible to remove from a socket 370 coppermine.
If it were an AMD it would be different.
Looks exactly like my ones they have lids like that too.
leave the lids alone geez 😀

If by 'lid' you mean the heatspreader SL52R comes without one.

Reply 9 of 21, by Disruptor

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JustRob wrote on 2021-11-09, 16:21:

Huh. Crazy that it can transfer heat from such a small surface area. But oh well, if it works it works.

It's true. The energy density can be compared to active fuel rods in a fission reactor. It's about 100 W/cm².
A hotplate of an electric stove? Peanuts with its 10 W/cm²!

This is why thermal paste is so important. Between the CPU die and the cooler there has to be not one bubble of air.
However, do not apply too much of the thermal paste. Pea size should be enough.

Reply 10 of 21, by retardware

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And before applying the new thermal paste, use Q-tips dipped in alcohol to thoroughly remove residues of the old hard paste.
I usually cut a credit card (or similar) to evenly spread the new paste before attaching the heat sink.
And I am always afraid of twisting the heat sink, breaking off a corner of the die. This makes so important to alternately turn the screws of the cooler.

Reply 11 of 21, by Sphere478

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Not enough thanks is given to the people in this group that take the time to explain things to people trying to learn. Very good job with the replies in this thread guys 😀

put some kinda shim on the corners to keep the heatsink from putting edge pressure on the die during removal and installation. Athalons used them a lot.

https://www.google.com/search?q=athalon+shim& … 3US913&hl=en-US

Just a small drop on the die is all that’s needed of thermal compound. Don’t over shimm though and make a gap between the heat sink and die.

Sphere's PCB projects.
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Sphere’s socket 5/7 cpu collection.
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SUCCESSFUL K6-2+ to K6-3+ Full Cache Enable Mod
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Tyan S1564S to S1564D single to dual processor conversion (also s1563 and s1562)

Reply 12 of 21, by imi

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RaiderOfLostVoodoo wrote on 2021-11-09, 18:20:
Yupp. Got this CPU last week: Die.png Have a look at the bottom left corner. No post, no beep. […]
Show full quote
dormcat wrote on 2021-11-09, 18:09:

Exposing the die can increase the rate of heat dissipation (by contacting the die directly to a heatsink) and reduce the amount of thermal paste needed, but can also increase the risk of chipping the die when installing a heatsink. AMD processors have soft pads at four corners (see the photo above) to reduce this risk but Intel processors have no such device, so be careful while lowering your heatsink onto that CPU.

Yupp.
Got this CPU last week:
Die.png
Have a look at the bottom left corner.
No post, no beep.

a chipped die like that doesn't necessarily mean the end of a CPU as long as it doesn't go too far, I remember my old Athlon C had a far larger chunk than that broken off the edge and it still worked just fine.

Reply 13 of 21, by Repo Man11

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I remember my SLK-900A came with a set of bumpers to put on the CPU because the base of the heatsink was too narrow for the stock AMD ones. It was very, very easy to chip the die if you mounted that heatsink without them.

"Everyone is ignorant, only on different subjects." - Will Rogers

Reply 14 of 21, by zapbuzz

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Doornkaat wrote on 2021-11-09, 20:59:
zapbuzz wrote on 2021-11-09, 18:28:
wow what a twist this thread is becoming de-lidding and getting a part refund for damaging stuff lol seriusly its intel and all […]
Show full quote

wow what a twist this thread is becoming de-lidding and getting a part refund for damaging stuff 🤣
seriusly its intel and all i see is a contaminated lid. The lids are basically impossible to remove from a socket 370 coppermine.
If it were an AMD it would be different.
Looks exactly like my ones they have lids like that too.
leave the lids alone geez 😀

If by 'lid' you mean the heatspreader SL52R comes without one.

Thanks I thought that was the case 😀

Reply 15 of 21, by zapbuzz

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RaiderOfLostVoodoo wrote on 2021-11-09, 18:57:
I didn't damage it. The seller damaged it, when he took off the cooler. Just a reminder to be extremely careful when handling So […]
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zapbuzz wrote on 2021-11-09, 18:28:

getting a part refund for damaging stuff 🤣

I didn't damage it.
The seller damaged it, when he took off the cooler.
Just a reminder to be extremely careful when handling Socket 370/462 CPUs.

Thankyou faith restored 😀

Reply 16 of 21, by RaiderOfLostVoodoo

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Doornkaat wrote on 2021-11-09, 20:59:

If by 'lid' you mean the heatspreader SL52R comes without one.

Yeah, exposed die, just like with Socket A Athlons.
Difference is just, that the glue (or whatever it is) around the die reachers further up and protects the corners/edges. That seems to help a lot, if I compare used Coppermines with used Athlons on Ebay. Most used Athlons have at least some minor damages to the die.

imi wrote on 2021-11-10, 02:52:

a chipped die like that doesn't necessarily mean the end of a CPU as long as it doesn't go too far, I remember my old Athlon C had a far larger chunk than that broken off the edge and it still worked just fine.

Indeed, there is a thin protective layer on the die. Depends on how deep the damage reaches.

Reply 17 of 21, by Tetrium

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imi wrote on 2021-11-10, 02:52:
RaiderOfLostVoodoo wrote on 2021-11-09, 18:20:
Yupp. Got this CPU last week: Die.png Have a look at the bottom left corner. No post, no beep. […]
Show full quote
dormcat wrote on 2021-11-09, 18:09:

Exposing the die can increase the rate of heat dissipation (by contacting the die directly to a heatsink) and reduce the amount of thermal paste needed, but can also increase the risk of chipping the die when installing a heatsink. AMD processors have soft pads at four corners (see the photo above) to reduce this risk but Intel processors have no such device, so be careful while lowering your heatsink onto that CPU.

Yupp.
Got this CPU last week:
Die.png
Have a look at the bottom left corner.
No post, no beep.

a chipped die like that doesn't necessarily mean the end of a CPU as long as it doesn't go too far, I remember my old Athlon C had a far larger chunk than that broken off the edge and it still worked just fine.

Some years ago I was contemplating on whether it would be possible to disable part of the cache and make it work again if the chipped part of the CPU just happens to be that damaged cache.
Iirc I do remember that some of the bridges controlled the size of the CPU cache (with 256kb having a way to disable either half or 3/4th of the cache).

Seems like a not very useful hack for now (if it works), but perhaps for the future just ftr.

Whats missing in your collections?
My retro rigs (old topic)
Interesting Vogons threads (links to Vogonswiki)
Report spammers here!

Reply 18 of 21, by Tetrium

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JustRob wrote on 2021-11-09, 16:13:

Got this in a box of parts... I thought cpus usually had a bigger metal surface on top, but this one only has this small square. Do I put thermal paste on the board itself too, or just that small bit in the center?

What I always do is to (after cleaning both the heatsink and the CPU area that is to receive the TIM) apply a small bit of TIM on the center of the die (like half a grain of rice or something), then hover the heatsink slightly above the CPU socket and put one clip in. Then place the heatsink on top of the CPU (don't move the heatsink after it makes touchdown) and fasten the other side of the metal clip so it's secure in place.
If you have doubts you can always remove it right after to see if the entire die area was covered by TIM and to see if you don't have a huge blob of TIM smeared across the substrate surface. And you can even practice with some old or cheap TIM and a spare junk CPU if you want to get the hang of it.

Whats missing in your collections?
My retro rigs (old topic)
Interesting Vogons threads (links to Vogonswiki)
Report spammers here!

Reply 19 of 21, by imi

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Tetrium wrote on 2021-11-11, 14:55:
Some years ago I was contemplating on whether it would be possible to disable part of the cache and make it work again if the ch […]
Show full quote
imi wrote on 2021-11-10, 02:52:
RaiderOfLostVoodoo wrote on 2021-11-09, 18:20:
Yupp. Got this CPU last week: Die.png Have a look at the bottom left corner. No post, no beep. […]
Show full quote

Yupp.
Got this CPU last week:
Die.png
Have a look at the bottom left corner.
No post, no beep.

a chipped die like that doesn't necessarily mean the end of a CPU as long as it doesn't go too far, I remember my old Athlon C had a far larger chunk than that broken off the edge and it still worked just fine.

Some years ago I was contemplating on whether it would be possible to disable part of the cache and make it work again if the chipped part of the CPU just happens to be that damaged cache.
Iirc I do remember that some of the bridges controlled the size of the CPU cache (with 256kb having a way to disable either half or 3/4th of the cache).

Seems like a not very useful hack for now (if it works), but perhaps for the future just ftr.

I don't believe it'd be simple as that, as there are probably many other lines routed around the outside of the die for connectivity