VOGONS


First post, by idan182

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Hi
I currently run a 733mhz pentium 3 on Intel i820 motherboard.

Would I notice any big differences by upgrading the 733mhz to 1.0ghz Coppermine? I see these cheap on ebay.
Would a Tualatin 1.0ghz is better than Coppermine? and does my motherboard supports it?

Reply 3 of 23, by dormcat

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idan182 wrote on 2022-06-20, 10:15:

Intel CC820
Here it says it supports up to 733mhz max: https://computer.fandom.com/wiki/Intel_CC820

Well, you've partially answered your own question. The official manual said so as well:

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Judging from the 7x multiplier and 133 MHz FSB, it *might* be able to support P3 800EB, 866, or even 933 MHz. On the other hand, its latest BIOS (P09-bios.exe) was dated April 28, 2000 so I wouldn't dare using 933 (announced on May 24, 2000) on it, even with the latest BIOS (which your MB might or might not have). Forget about Tualatin.

I wouldn't risk the MB and/or CPU just for 18% speed increase (from 733 to 866) if I were you.

Reply 5 of 23, by bloodem

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dormcat wrote on 2022-06-20, 10:58:

Judging from the 7x multiplier and 133 MHz FSB, it *might* be able to support P3 800EB, 866, or even 933 MHz. On the other hand, its latest BIOS (P09-bios.exe) was dated April 28, 2000 so I wouldn't dare using 933 (announced on May 24, 2000) on it, even with the latest BIOS (which your MB might or might not have). Forget about Tualatin.

I wouldn't risk the MB and/or CPU just for 18% speed increase (from 733 to 866) if I were you.

That's far from being true. In my experience, if a board works with a lower frequency Coppermine, it will work with a 1 GHz Coppermine CPU as well (even if the BIOS is older, it will usually display the correct speed during POST). And even if the speed is incorrectly detected during POST, the CPU itself will work as expected.

These CPUs have a hard locked multiplier, so the configured multiplier on the motherboard itself is irrelevant.

Also, not sure why you think that installing a 1 GHz Coppermine would risk the MB and/or CPU. The only possible risk that I can think of would be related to TDP, which, coincidentally, is actually lower on a Pentium 3 Coppermine @ 1 GHz, compared to something like a Katmai 600 (and this motherboard clearly supports Katmai CPUs just fine).

Last edited by bloodem on 2022-06-20, 12:28. Edited 1 time in total.

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Reply 6 of 23, by PARKE

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bloodem wrote on 2022-06-20, 11:36:

Also, not sure why you think that installing a 1 GHz Coppermine would risk for the MB and/or CPU. The only possible risk that I can think of would be related to TDP, which, coincidentally, is actually lower on a Pentium 3 Coppermine @ 1 GHz, compared to something like a Katmai 600 (and this motherboard clearly supports Katmai CPUs just fine).

The manual refers to current draw in Amps wich is related to the robustness of the VRM. Here an overview:

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Reply 7 of 23, by TrashPanda

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PARKE wrote on 2022-06-20, 12:05:
bloodem wrote on 2022-06-20, 11:36:

Also, not sure why you think that installing a 1 GHz Coppermine would risk for the MB and/or CPU. The only possible risk that I can think of would be related to TDP, which, coincidentally, is actually lower on a Pentium 3 Coppermine @ 1 GHz, compared to something like a Katmai 600 (and this motherboard clearly supports Katmai CPUs just fine).

The manual refers to current draw in Amps which is related to the robustness of the VRM. Here an overview:Doc1.doc

I doubt that will be an issue as the CPU can only ever use what is being delivered by the VRM on these older boards and since it'll be downclocked it wont be stressing any components here. (IIRC the current draw on a Coppermine is lower than the Katmai so again even less stress)

The very worst that can happen here is that it wont post or will post but the CPU will be incorrectly detected by the BIOS, this wont affect it at all and it will still run just fine.

Oh noes, the cap let the shmooo out 😁

Reply 8 of 23, by dionb

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Intel CC820... that's a very specific slug: i820 chipset with MTH for SDRAM, combining the worst of RDRAM (high latencies) with the worst of SDRAM (relatively low throughput), and adding a good dollop of (potential) instability as well.

As I said in your previous topic:
"Bottom line: extremely interesting find, but very, very unsuitable for an inexperienced "New guy". It's unstable by design, unsupported since recall and at best it would be outperformed by pretty much anything else you could put the same components on.

Tbh, I'd find someone with more experience who is curious about this oddity and would happily swap it for a more mainstream, reliable option."

Just to put the performance into perspective:
https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/showdown … fsb,170-12.html

You can equate i815 performance with i440BX performance in this table. Both will outperform the i820 with MTH/SDRAM by almost as much as the upgrade to 1GHz would get you (yes, that's 36% faster - but as it's only a higher multiplier, the improvement's not linear) - and then you can upgrade to 1000MHz as well.

This If you're after best performance, this really isn't the board for you.

Reply 9 of 23, by Standard Def Steve

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A 733 to 1GHz Coppermine upgrade isn't going to much of a difference. However, if you can grab the 1GHz processor for under $15 and then crank the FSB/CPU speed to 150/1125 MHz, then definitely go for it. If your board supports Tualatins, a 1.4GHz PIII-S will give you a much larger, more meaningful boost. Extra cache is a sweet, sweet thing when you're throttled hard by an SDR FSB.

I love bringing these images up because it shows almost exactly a 2x speedup going from a Coppermine 850 to a Tualatin-S @ 1628. Based on these results, I'd assume that the upgrade from a 733MHz CuMine to a 1400MHz PIII-S will give you a similar boost. Perhaps not quite as significant if your FSB remains the same, but it will definitely be noticeable!
A Pentium III Coppermine @ 850 gets 110.5 fps running a maxed out, 1024x768 Quake III timedemo. I'm using a Radeon 9800 Pro here, so the CPU is 101% the limiting factor.

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A Pentium III-S @ 1628 gets 220.2 FPS. The GPU and driver are the same, although it's worth noting that the AGP is running at 4x on this board.

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P6 chip. Triple the speed of the Pentium.
Tualatin: PIII-S @ 1628 MHz | QDI Advance 12T | 2GB DDR-310 | 6800GT | X-Fi | 500GB HDD | 3DMark01: 14,059
Dothan: PM @ 2720 MHz | MSI Speedster FA4 | 2GB DDR2-544 | GTX-280 | X-Fi | 500GB SSD | 3DMark01: 42,148

Reply 10 of 23, by swaaye

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The 820 MTH boards were recalled so I think it would be interesting to have one. Even if they are slower and might be unstable in some situations. 😀

Apparently Intel even made some samples of a DIMM with a MTH on it to use SDRAM on their RDRAM boards.

Last edited by swaaye on 2022-06-20, 18:48. Edited 2 times in total.

Reply 11 of 23, by dionb

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swaaye wrote on 2022-06-20, 18:44:

The 820 MTH boards were recalled so I think it would be interesting to have one. Even if they are slower and might be unstable in some situations. 😀

Exactly. This is a pretty unique relic to treasure, not something to blindly try to get max performance out of (which will still be disappointing).

Reply 12 of 23, by AlexZ

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Undervolting the CPU will make it draw less current. Instead of 1.75V, use 1.7V.

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Reply 13 of 23, by appiah4

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rmay635703 wrote on 2022-06-20, 11:29:

With folks using a slocket to install Tualatins to 440bx boards why wouldn’t similar magic work here?

The BIOS probably doesn't have the microcode for a Tualatin let alone a late Coppermine. Moreover the board may not even have a VRM capable of going low enough to not fry a Tualatin.

Retronautics: A digital gallery of my retro computers, hardware and projects.

Reply 14 of 23, by Sphere478

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appiah4 wrote on 2022-06-21, 11:27:
rmay635703 wrote on 2022-06-20, 11:29:

With folks using a slocket to install Tualatins to 440bx boards why wouldn’t similar magic work here?

The BIOS probably doesn't have the microcode for a Tualatin let alone a late Coppermine. Moreover the board may not even have a VRM capable of going low enough to not fry a Tualatin.

Got a vrm controller chip part number? We can find out. 😀

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Reply 15 of 23, by Tetrium

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idan182 wrote on 2022-06-20, 10:15:

Intel CC820
Here it says it supports up to 733mhz max: https://computer.fandom.com/wiki/Intel_CC820

You can try to install a faster Slot 1 Coppermine. Tualatin will most likely not work, but may with the right parts and right BIOS version.
One issue is that the board was made by Intel and Intel had the habit back then to purposefully lock out faster clocked CPUs with many of their BIOS files.
Tualatin doesn't come in the Slot 1 package natively, so it would be a crapshoot whether or not it will work. At any rate, you'd need a slotket to even try a Tualatin.

Higher clocked Coppermines are usually easier to find in s370 package, but then you'd need to get a slotket that will work with your Intel-made board and still there's no guarantee it will work.

Personally, I think I'd at most try a faster clocked Slot 1 Coppermine and see if that works. If it doesn't, I'd stay put with the 733MHz Coppermine as that's still a nice CPU overall with very low TDP.

Concerning your board...what people like Dionb are mentioning is...well you could wsay that you are asking advice on how to use a vase properly, but it turns out your vase is actual Roman vase or something (I'm just trying to explain a bit here, don't take it too literally). It would be kind of a waste to expend such a little treasure for something like overclocking or blind experimentation. CC820 is really somewhat legendary if you ask me, in a somewhat similar way to how the earliest NVidia leafblowe...I mean FX5800 graphics cards are bad, so bad that they were few in numbers which makes them legendary today 😜
Your board was one of the recalled ones and it may be very rare. Heck, you could perhaps sell it and for that money you made get back 5 similar (but not exactly same) boards that will work with a 1GHz Coppermine (or with a Tualatin).

Your board is so uncommon nowdays, even if you were to run it with the Coppermine 733 with some benchmarks and post the bench results here, it would be appreciated.

I'd treat that board like a real treasure if I were you! It's very likely you will never get one like this one ever again, it's really that uncommon.

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Reply 17 of 23, by appiah4

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PARKE wrote on 2022-06-21, 13:13:
AlexZ wrote on 2022-06-21, 11:22:

Undervolting the CPU will make it draw less current. Instead of 1.75V, use 1.7V.

Are you sure ?

A CPU works like a bunch of capacitors that charge and discharge at each clock cycle. For a capacitor, Voltage and Current work as:

V = I / C

Increase voltage, and you increase current, and vice versa.

Retronautics: A digital gallery of my retro computers, hardware and projects.

Reply 18 of 23, by Oetker

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appiah4 wrote on 2022-06-21, 11:27:
rmay635703 wrote on 2022-06-20, 11:29:

With folks using a slocket to install Tualatins to 440bx boards why wouldn’t similar magic work here?

The BIOS probably doesn't have the microcode for a Tualatin let alone a late Coppermine. Moreover the board may not even have a VRM capable of going low enough to not fry a Tualatin.

A VRM good enough for Coppermine is good enough for Tualatin. Microcode isn't really an issue either (440BX boards that work with Tualatin don't have it (unless patched)), it really is a matter of how strict the BIOS is.

Reply 19 of 23, by Standard Def Steve

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You know, I didn't even read your second post. I had just assumed that you wanted to upgrade the processor on some i820 board that likely used a socketed CPU (since to my tiny mind, 820 is a higher number than 815 and, well, all of those used sockets). I was so wrong!

Please ignore the upgrade advice and benchmarks I posted above and just enjoy the odd, uncommon, curiously slow beauty that is the CC820!

P6 chip. Triple the speed of the Pentium.
Tualatin: PIII-S @ 1628 MHz | QDI Advance 12T | 2GB DDR-310 | 6800GT | X-Fi | 500GB HDD | 3DMark01: 14,059
Dothan: PM @ 2720 MHz | MSI Speedster FA4 | 2GB DDR2-544 | GTX-280 | X-Fi | 500GB SSD | 3DMark01: 42,148