What do you exactly mean with "the whole DOS era"? If you're talking from the original XT all the way up to the last DOS gaming days of the late 90s, it'd be incredibly difficult to have a singular PC that can accurately play all those games. Early PC stuff was speed sensitive (something that continued into the 486 era), there's pre-VGA stuff that you may or may not want to play, 3D acceleration was a thing for DOS games in the late 90s, etc.

To make things clearer, do you have a timeframe of game release years in mind, of the games you want to be able to play? That would narrow things down, like whether just VGA would be fine, whether 3D acceleration might be a factor, which sound card(s) would be the best fit, etc.

Daniël Oosterhuis wrote on 2023-07-03, 08:20:

What do you exactly mean with "the whole DOS era"? If you're talking from the original XT all the way up to the last DOS gaming days of the late 90s, it'd be incredibly difficult to have a singular PC that can accurately play all those games. Early PC stuff was speed sensitive (something that continued into the 486 era), there's pre-VGA stuff that you may or may not want to play, 3D acceleration was a thing for DOS games in the late 90s, etc.

To make things clearer, do you have a timeframe of game release years in mind, of the games you want to be able to play? That would narrow things down, like whether just VGA would be fine, whether 3D acceleration might be a factor, which sound card(s) would be the best fit, etc.

My bad.I had to be a bit more precise. The earliest game I am interested in is the Dos version of the Batman game from 90. So I am mainly into 1990s Dos games.

Athlon XP "Thoroughbred" CPU + motherboard with a VIA KT266A/KT333/KT400/KT600 chipset (i.e. Asus A7V600-X) + GeForce 2 MX/MX400 + Yamaha YMF724/744 sound card.
By using tools like Setmul and Throttle, this combo will allow you to play almost anything, with very few exceptions (Jazz Jackrabbit being one of them) .

If you are looking for the best possible DOS compatibility, then a VIA C3 Ezra-T on a 440BX motherboard (with 2 or more ISA slots) is as close as you can get to perfection, but this combo is a bit more difficult to (properly) pull off. So the Athlon XP combo gets my vote for being cheaper and easier to have it up and running.

There's some good suggestions for a similar criteria of DOS PC in the following thread:

A "broad spectrum" 90s build?

Stuff like disabling caches and SetMul (on compatible CPUs) can slow your system down to the speed of a 386 or 286, allowing for more speed sensitive games like Wing Commander or Jazz Jackrabbit to play correctly.
There's a few ways of going about it, it all depends on what you'd prefer or what you can obtain.

bloodem wrote on 2023-07-03, 08:51:

Athlon XP "Thoroughbred" CPU + motherboard with a VIA KT266A/KT333/KT400/KT600 chipset (i.e. Asus A7V600-X) + GeForce 2 MX/MX400 + Yamaha YMF724/744 sound card.
By using tools like Setmul and Throttle, this combo will allow you to play almost anything, with very few exceptions (Jazz Jackrabbit being one of them) .

If you are looking for the best possible DOS compatibility, then a VIA C3 Ezra-T on a 440BX motherboard (with 2 or more ISA slots) is as close as you can get to perfection, but this combo is a bit more difficult to (properly) pull off. So the Athlon XP combo gets my vote for being cheaper and easier to have it up and running.

If you go for KT133A chipset instead, there are plenty of boards with ISA port(s) to choose from. Some of them will work with CPU:s up to the 266MT/s versions of Thoroughbred and Barton XP 2600+, Chaintech 7AJA2 is one example I know from personal experience. Also read somewhere that someone's successfully been using the Barton XP-M 3000+ in some KT133A board, if you want to take it to the extreme.

Also agreeing on the C3 Ezra/440BX combo being a great choice for extreme flexibility and finely grained speed tuning. Experimented some with it back when SS7 boards started to become prohibitively rare and expensive. As you're mentioning though, you'll have to do your research, find a mobo with a VRM being able to produce the needed voltages and the right slotket, probably doing some BIOS editing, and so on. It's not as simple as just buying an Ezra CPU, a random 440BX board and slotket, slapping it together, and expecting it to work.

DOS and Win9x had a couple of years of overlap. A lot of early 3D games (Quake, Carmageddon, Tomb Raider, Screamer, Descent) were still DOS games.

I'd say if your W98 PC covers late-DOS well, then:
486DX between 50 and 100MHz. Or Pentium up to 100MHz. You can slow it down if necessary.
PCI motherboard.
S3 Trio64V or S3 Virge - both are common, cheap and compatible.
Yamaha Audician 32 YMF718 or YMF719 or ESS Audiodrive ES1868F or ES1869F for sound card. The latter should be cheaper.
I prefer to have 16MB RAM.

If you leave late dos early 3D games to your 800MHz Pentium 3, this should be alright.

Thanks a lot for the replies. It is good to know that I would have many options

I will check every option out.

so far the option that

bloodem wrote on 2023-07-03, 08:51:

Athlon XP "Thoroughbred" CPU + motherboard with a VIA KT266A/KT333/KT400/KT600 chipset (i.e. Asus A7V600-X) + GeForce 2 MX/MX400 + Yamaha YMF724/744 sound card.
By using tools like Setmul and Throttle, this combo will allow you to play almost anything, with very few exceptions (Jazz Jackrabbit being one of them) .

If you are looking for the best possible DOS compatibility, then a VIA C3 Ezra-T on a 440BX motherboard (with 2 or more ISA slots) is as close as you can get to perfection, but this combo is a bit more difficult to (properly) pull off. So the Athlon XP combo gets my vote for being cheaper and easier to have it up and running.

mentioned seems to be the most attractive. The above mentioned parts are rathe easy to obtain and a athlon Thoroughbred system might also come in handy as a late gen win 98se system for the games that are a bit too much for my p3 800mhz.

Getting a system with Via C3 cpu on intel 440bx s motherboard also sound like a cool solution. Cost wise it would be a more expensive solution though. Most 440bx mother boards are not very cheap to obtain. The Via cpu itself n the other hand would not that expensive.

The option that RandomStranger mentioned would also be possible. Leaving the late Dos games to me p3 800 system and just get really early Dos rig also sounds like cool idea.

need to research about the avalibilty of the parts first.

I'd say every sugestion that was made so far is worth considering but the solution @bloodem mentioned would be the easiest to pull off due the easy availbilty of the parts needed for that project.

In case you only want original 440bx motherboards from Intel then you are right they are very cheap. But if you are open to take a look into 440bx MBS that are not from intel you have some cheaper options left.

I am so far very happy with my Asus p2b mainboard. The Asus is still not cheap but cheaper than the original Intel 440bx.

I also found 440bx from other makes like Abit and Soyo that were even cheaper. Have no information about the quality of these motherboards though.

I am new to general retro computing, and the Asus system is my first rig.

I am very happy with the System so far and would recommend getting a 440bx rig.

Since you already have a P3 for later and more demanding DOS games, I would suggest a Pentium MMX for everything else. It can easily be slowed down to 386 and 486 speeds via SetMul, which covers the period up to 1990. Phil demonstrates the slowdown method in this video.

Pair it with a later socket 7 motherboard which has an ATX power connector and you're all set. I suggest something based on the Intel 430TX chipset for good compatibility and overall ease of use. Only put up to 64 MB RAM in there, as that chipset can't cache more, and DOS games don't benefit from extra RAM. Add an S3 Trio or Virge card from a reputable brand (ELSA, Hercules, STB etc.) as they have excellent compatibility with DOS games and the branded cards ensure that you also get good image quality. If you find a nice deal, you can put a Voodoo 1 in there as well, for those early 3D accelerated games.

Which sound card to get is a much trickier question. Do you only care about FM synth or do you also want General MIDI and MT-32 music? This may depend on which games you want to play. There is no single, perfect DOS sound card, and you'll either have to live with some compromises or use more than one card.

If you already have a P3 800mhz I think you are just about set.

There is too much emphasis put on speed sensitive games IMO. Any motherboard with an ISA slot (just about) will do just fine. Disable L1 cache on your P3 and you have a fast 386. That will just about do it for 90% of the speed sensitive DOS games.

There are like three half decent games that run better on a slower pentium. You can try the free version of mo slow or throttle to help with those (or heaven forbid play them in dosbox).

486 is not a speed reference point for DOS. There is one games I know of that needs a 486dx2 66 to run "optimally" and it's magic carpet, it is best known for making people sick, and if you really must play it you can still use other methods of slow down (I guess).

retep_110 wrote on 2023-07-03, 08:38:

So I am mainly into 1990s Dos games.

For a dedicated DOS machine to cover the 90s, I'll echo Joseph_Joestar's recommendation for a Pentium MMX system. The video they linked is a good one as it shows a specific build and how to throttle it to speeds covering 386 through Pentium.

For video cards, something like an S3 Trio chip will provide good compatibility among DOS games. There is a chart available that lists PCI and AGP video card DOS games compatibility: https://gona.mactar.hu/DOS_TESTS/

For sound and music, this can get complicated depending on what sound and music options you are going for. Sound Blaster Pro compatibility is a good starting point, and then depending if you want to get into MIDI based music options (Roland MT-32, Sound Canvas, etc.) you can expand from there.

mothergoose729 wrote on 2023-07-03, 14:04:

There is too much emphasis put on speed sensitive games IMO. Any motherboard with an ISA slot (just about) will do just fine. Disable L1 cache on your P3 and you have a fast 386. That will just about do it for 90% of the speed sensitive DOS games.

Eh, if only that were true. Well, it is technically true, but it can really suck when it's not. 😅
Based on my experience, disabling the L1 cache on a Coppermine will not result in a 'fast 386' equivalent speed. It's more like a fast 286 (which can be OK, depending on what you play).

Now, regarding speed sensitive games, this is a very complex and interesting discussion... One thing is certain, though: there are a lot more speed sensitive games than people think.

Let's take Lion King as an example: this game is not known as being 'speed sensitive' in the traditional sense. But, boy, oh boy - once you actually play it for a longer period of time, you quickly realize that it is (specific sections of the game will run too fast, like the bonus "bug collecting" levels or even the main menu + the "roar meter" which gets buggier and buggier the faster the PC is, and you find yourself constantly having to press the "pause" button to unfreeze it).

Then there are games like Titus the Fox, which requires a very specific and weird speed for the best experience (~ 486SX-25). Any faster than that, and the Adlib/FM sound is not properly initialized, any slower and specific sections of the game will start to stutter/flicker. And this is probably the most prevalent 'speed sensitive' behavior: sound problems. Even games like Indiana jones and the fate of Atlantis, Day of the Tentacle run best on a ~486 DX-33 --> DX2-66 (if you go much faster than that, they either lock up or their sound is not properly initialized, but if you go down to a ~386 equivalent speed, you start to notice the subpar performance).

Oh, and did I mention that this behavior can actually vary greatly depending on the platform? Yeah, it's not an exact science - I've encountered countless situations where a speed sensitive game can be more tolerant depending on the platform you run it on (even if it's a faster platform compared to others). And this is actually the main reason why having the most flexibility can be very helpful - you never know how a specific game will behave on a certain hardware combo until you actually try it.

So, yes, in the grand scheme of things these games are in a minority, but if you are unlucky and your favorite games are part of said minority, you won't care... 😀

bloodem wrote on 2023-07-03, 16:57:

Now, regarding speed sensitive games, this is a very complex and interesting discussion... One thing is certain, though: there are a lot more speed sensitive games than people think.

I agree with this. And that speed sensitivity may not be immediately obvious or might only affect specific things like music playback, animations, in-game timers... etc.

For example, when I had a 486 DX2-66, I noticed music playback issues trying to use an MT-32 with Dynamix adventure games (Willy Beamish, Rise of the Dragon). When I downgraded to a 486 DX-33, those issues went away.

Or you have games like Warcraft where palette cycling animations (e.g. water animation) are tied to processor speed. Doesn't exactly break the game, but a slower speed makes it look nicer.

Shponglefan wrote on 2023-07-03, 14:57:

For a dedicated DOS machine to cover the 90s, I'll echo Joseph_Joestar's recommendation for a Pentium MMX system. The video the […]
Show full quote

retep_110 wrote on 2023-07-03, 08:38:

So I am mainly into 1990s Dos games.

For a dedicated DOS machine to cover the 90s, I'll echo Joseph_Joestar's recommendation for a Pentium MMX system. The video they linked is a good one as it shows a specific build and how to throttle it to speeds covering 386 through Pentium.

For video cards, something like an S3 Trio chip will provide good compatibility among DOS games. There is a chart available that lists PCI and AGP video card DOS games compatibility: https://gona.mactar.hu/DOS_TESTS/

For sound and music, this can get complicated depending on what sound and music options you are going for. Sound Blaster Pro compatibility is a good starting point, and then depending if you want to get into MIDI based music options (Roland MT-32, Sound Canvas, etc.) you can expand from there.

Thx for your reply. The MMX cpu are not that expensive. 166 MHZ and 233 MHZ are quite cheap at the moment.

Would be better to get the slower or the faster version?

Thanks a lot for the interesting link. That will be very useful to pick up the right video card. There are many good options. I could even consider getting a Voodoo 1 card (if I am lucky and find it a a good price) for second card like Joseph Joestar said. Having a Voodoo 1 would enable to try out some early V1 games in it's full glory.

I always wanted to check out the 3dfx versions of Tomb Raider Interstate 76, Mech Warrior 2, Descent 2 and many more.

Shponglefan wrote on 2023-07-03, 17:36:

I agree with this. And that speed sensitivity may not be immediately obvious or might only affect specific things like music pla […]
Show full quote

bloodem wrote on 2023-07-03, 16:57:

Now, regarding speed sensitive games, this is a very complex and interesting discussion... One thing is certain, though: there are a lot more speed sensitive games than people think.

I agree with this. And that speed sensitivity may not be immediately obvious or might only affect specific things like music playback, animations, in-game timers... etc.

For example, when I had a 486 DX2-66, I noticed music playback issues trying to use an MT-32 with Dynamix adventure games (Willy Beamish, Rise of the Dragon). When I downgraded to a 486 DX-33, those issues went away.

Or you have games like Warcraft where palette cycling animations (e.g. water animation) are tied to processor speed. Doesn't exactly break the game, but a slower speed makes it look nicer.

That's very valid point. I want to run the games as good with possible. Without any sound bugs and they should look as nice as possible.

In that regard the system that bloodem suggest should be the savest bet.

But having a MMX system sounds like a great solution as well.

retep_110 wrote on 2023-07-03, 18:05:

Thx for your reply. The MMX cpu are not that expensive. 166 MHZ and 233 MHZ are quite cheap at the moment.

Would be better to get the slower or the faster version?

The 166 version will make it a bit easier to reach slower 386 speeds, which is desirable for games like Wing Commander. Phil has a nice table demonstrating this.

Obviously, you can downclock the 233 version to those speeds as well, but motherboards from that time usually do that via jumpers, so you'd have to open up the case every time you do it. Or use DuPont wires to externalize the jumpers, but that's a bit too convoluted for my tastes. Slower CPU = fewer worries, especially since you have a P3 for the more demanding stuff.

And performance-wise the 166 MMX is comparable to the 200 NonMMX due to its larger cache. So the speed difference is smaller than it seems at first glance.
(Btw. that is one subject in an interesting video from Necroware)

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-07-03, 19:54:

Or use DuPont wires to externalize the jumpers, but that's a bit too convoluted for my tastes. Slower CPU = fewer worries, especially since you have a P3 for the more demanding stuff.

It's really straightforward to toggle either the multiplier or FSB jumpers using a turbo switch. If you're ambitious, you can install a second toggle to change both.

retep_110 wrote on 2023-07-03, 07:48:

I am looking for a allround DOS system (if possible) that can cover all games from the whole DOS area.

In addition to opinions provided by other VOGONS users, here are my two cents:

Re: A "broad spectrum" 90s build?
Re: Running DOS games in a real hardware. What issues am I going to encounter?

I happen to have a P3-800 as well, on a Gigabyte GA-6VXC7-4X-P with Gigabyte GV-R9000 Pro II. However, with the exception of very late DOS games like JetFighter III, I play just about all DOS games on a Pentium-MMX 233MHz on Socket 7 / 430TX motherboard (Asus TXP4), which allows me to slow it down to 386 level by turning caches off.

In theory, a Pentium II or III build with:
- ET4000 (ISA) or similar popular ISA SVGA (512KB+); the chipset is known to early SVGA titles, it does CGA/Hercules via mode utility
- a Voodoo/Voodoo II accelerator for 3D games
- a TIGA or 8514/A accelerator for 2D (optional)
- a SB16 or compatible soundcard (on-board on some P3 mainboards)
- classic joystick for DB15 port (non-USB); say Gravis gamepad or CH flight gear
- EMS and UMB card (ISA), to avoid need for V86/memory managers; UMBPCI might be a cheap, but less reliable substitute for UMB card
- an VGA CRT monitor / CRT TV with converter / LCD with scanline simulator / LCD with CRT mask simulator (recommended, still unavailable)
- 3D shutter glasses (COM port/LCDBIOS) or VFX-1 VR helmet
- cyber suit (body suit) for exotic cyber games
- NE2000 compatible network card for multiplayer games
- Hayes compatible modem or null-modem cable for multiplayer games
- MS compatible mouse and MS natural keyboard
- huge, bulky active speaker boxes

Edit: In the 90s, a 486DX2-66 with VLB graphics was usually being considered the sweet spot.
That's what I remember, at least. But maybe the demands have changed since, not sure.

Edited.