Personally I buy to collect and use.
If it doesn't work it's just uninteresting. Unless it has value itself (Apple 1, let's talk selling on).

RandomStranger wrote on 2023-07-24, 12:26:

They shouldn't and they don't.

And that was my point. A 386, 486, Duron or Athlon has the same sold price now because collectors drive the market. They are the customers with money and sellers have the stuff. This didn't change in the past 40 years and won't change in the next 40 either, people will always collect computer hardware. Sources didn't dry up? Then how come Vogons is filled with topics every week about the insane prices of retro hardware and how there used to be so cheap and readily available?
Because they aren't anymore. Anybody trying to collect 775 will quickly find out that out of the 150+ models available third of them cost more than $20, considerably more. These are NOT high end processors, just unpopular ones that nobody bought when they came out. You want specific s-spec? Now that's expensive territory. And yes, you can go lower with pricing if you take job lots into consideration and 775 was a perfect candidate because it had no pins to bend so it's risk-free.
Single units of a specific item always cost more than job lots, that's the point of them.
And yes, EE goes for $200+ and not just EE, just top level. Not even top level, just some obscure s-spec model. Because collectors do drive that segment who want specific parts.
So the fact is still valid: age doesn't matter to collectors when it comes to computer hardware, it only matters to people who want something for nostalgia reasons. And that's why the pricing of a 386, 486 or a 2011 are so similar.

HanSolo wrote on 2023-07-24, 16:49:

A 10 year old CPU is still useful today and I could imagine that people are now upgrading their PCs to the fastest CPU their board can handle.

I understand that, doing the same because I'm not gaming.
My system is a E3-1230 with a R9 270, which is essentially the same as yours. Handles office tasks well.

Capcholo wrote on 2023-07-25, 05:14:

And that was my point. A 386, 486, Duron or Athlon has the same sold price now because collectors drive the market.

Then they are doing a bad job, since these CPUs are far from being expensive.

Capcholo wrote on 2023-07-25, 05:14:

Sources didn't dry up? Then how come Vogons is filled with topics every week about the insane prices of retro hardware and how there used to be so cheap and readily available?

Some specific hardware cost a lot, most are not. Ebay prices are often absurd, but there are other, better sources. And people love to complain.

Capcholo wrote on 2023-07-25, 05:14:

You want specific s-spec? Now that's expensive territory.

Not necessarily, but it can happen that if you want one very specific item, the only source for it will be a moron selling at over-inflated prices on ebay. But it's a minority of a minority who are that strictly speficif about item and they don't drive the prices anywhere because most of us won't pay extra for a specific s-spec if the cheap ones are just as good for running retro games.

Capcholo wrote on 2023-07-25, 05:14:

And yes, EE goes for $200+ and not just EE, just top level. Not even top level, just some obscure s-spec model. Because collectors do drive that segment who want specific parts.

They don't drive that segment, they are victimized by some sellers with over-inflated prices. Sellers who are perfectly fine re-listing the same item for years until someone finally comes and gives in. Again, EE-s and CPUs in general don't go for $200+, a minority so small don't drive a market as large as the one for used PC components. There are just some sellers who overprice and sometimes just happens to have the item someone is willing to overpay for and sometimes they find each other. That doesn't mean there is a real lasting demand for that type of item at that price point. The collector got it, crossed off the list, the demand is satisfied, going forward the seller won't find anyone for a long time if ever to pay anything close to that amount.

Overpriced to which country? It is overpriced for Romania, not overpriced for Germany. It is overpriced for Guatemala, not overpriced for the US. People who shop for retro on Ebay regularly know this. It's not necessarily overpriced, just sought after. One part of the World can't buy a $200 CPU and constantly complains about high prices, the other finds it to be a decent price and won't waste time waiting for deals that are way too rare and time consuming.
That's the reason complaining weekly about high prices is pointless and claiming that it ruins the entire hobby is bs.
But I still haven't got an answer as to why this would be true:

RandomStranger wrote on 2023-07-25, 05:45:

Sure, but if we take practical utility out of hardware collection, the number of people interested in drops down to a fraction.

The point of this entire wall of text was to determine the reasoning behind this sentence, since prices of 10 year old processors are similar to prices of 40 year old processors. Shouldn't they be much lower since people ignore them completely? Are these people all buying Core 2 Duo E7600 or Celeron 320 processors to make builds? I believe in just the opposite.
How many people make builds who buy these processors and how many of them put them in a box? Must be like 1:10. That 1 blames the other 9 for high prices, high prices meaning $10-20. But that one person keeps forgetting that searching for specific parts is always more difficult than buying anything that is of that era. People want a Voodoo 4 4500 then they blame collectors for high prices. But if you want THAT specific part and that part alone, won't that make you a collector as well? Collector of specific hardware. So what really drives up prices? Supply and demand?
How would this mean that interest in more recent parts is going to drop? People who use them want a specific part, collectors want a specific part, people who upgrade want a specific part, all doing the same thing. Sellers notice the interest going up and adjust their prices accordingly.
If all collectors died today then old parts wouldn't suddenly go for $1, they would completely disappear from Ebay because that hardware is worth more as scrap than $1+all the hassle with shipping. Who wants to waste their time for minimal profits? Easier if they throw everything in the trash.
So collectors are also the reason sellers take hardware OUT of the trash instead of leaving it all to get recycled. And don't forget that collectors often get bored, start collecting something else and sell their collections. More available supply and most of it is going to be tested, not just untested junk directly from the mouth of the shredder. And yes, it's going to cost more than just scrap value because tested stuff stored properly has more value.
So yes, collectors do drive the hardware market, they also keep it alive and make sure that builders will have plenty of options to choose from 10, 30 or 50 years later too.

Capcholo wrote on 2023-07-25, 07:04:

Overpriced to which country? It is overpriced for Romania, not overpriced for Germany. It is overpriced for Guatemala, not overpriced for the US. People who shop for retro on Ebay regularly know this. It's not necessarily overpriced, just sought after. One part of the World can't buy a $200 CPU and constantly complains about high prices, the other finds it to be a decent price and

$200 for a decade old CPU is overpriced everywhere on the world. That's not collector price, neither retro enthusiast price. That's speculator's price.

Capcholo wrote on 2023-07-25, 07:04:

The point of this entire wall of text was to determine the reasoning behind this sentence, since prices of 10 year old processors are similar to prices of 40 year old processors. Shouldn't they be much lower since people ignore them completely? Are these people all buying Core 2 Duo E7600 or Celeron 320 processors to make builds? I believe in just the opposite.

That's where utility comes in. If you want to build a DOS PC or a Windows 98 PC you can't really go past Socket478.
If you account for issues software have with much more modern hardware than they were made for, you have to go further back.
That drives the VALUE of those much older CPUs. Anything above that value is speculative PRICE.

Capcholo wrote on 2023-07-25, 07:04:

How many people make builds who buy these processors and how many of them put them in a box? Must be like 1:10. That 1 blames the other 9 for high prices, high prices meaning $10-20. But that one person keeps forgetting that searching for specific parts is always more difficult than buying anything that is of that era.

There are a third group we haven't mention yet. The hoarders. I define them by having an interest in having an interest in retro, rather than plainly having an interest in retro. They pile up a lot of stuff that is accessible with the hopes that one day they'll do something with them. And that never comes.

Capcholo wrote on 2023-07-25, 07:04:

People want a Voodoo 4 4500 then they blame collectors for high prices. But if you want THAT specific part and that part alone, won't that make you a collector as well? Collector of specific hardware. So what really drives up prices? Supply and demand?

Sometimes demand drives the price more than supply. Aside of being a collectors (nowdays more like speculator's) item, it's a very good card for a very specific tasks. Offering decent performance up-to games released in 2000 with Glide support in period correct resolutions.

Capcholo wrote on 2023-07-25, 07:04:

People who use them want a specific part, collectors want a specific part, people who upgrade want a specific part, all doing the same thing. Sellers notice the interest going up and adjust their prices accordingly.

Some do, some don't. Some speculate the price will rise and list their stuff way above their value, some see parts are listed at those high prices and they match them. The value is the price where legit transactions happen. Having listings for a specific part for $1000 and nothing bleow doesn't mean that specific part worth $1000 to anyone.

Capcholo wrote on 2023-07-25, 07:04:

So collectors are also the reason sellers take hardware OUT of the trash instead of leaving it all to get recycled.

Yes, collectors are the reason it's more profitable to sell 30 years old sound cards for more than the price of gold you can scrap from them, but collectors aren't the reason some ask for the price of their weight in gold.

Circling back to complaining about prices. Complaining that old hardware isn't free is dumb, but complaining speculators making certain hardware unobtainable is legit. GUS is only an okay sound card with some games specifically designed for it. That doesn't make it worth $500, but speculators pushed its price that high.

Scarcity can make marginally useful things cost ludicrous amounts in any hobby. I've seen it come up with hardware, computer games, roleplaying games, books and magazines, wargame miniatures, musical instruments, and the list goes on and on. If you are getting into a hobby where ownership of a certain scarce product is a barrier to entry, either get into it deep and fast or expect to overpay eventually..

Capcholo wrote on 2023-07-25, 07:04:

Are these people all buying Core 2 Duo E7600 or Celeron 320 processors to make builds?

The C2D E7600 is sold for next to nothing. Same with the E8500. The only model from that line that is 'expensive' with up to 20 Euro is the E8600. Again, this is the fastest model some boards can handle and makes a nice XP build.

RandomStranger wrote on 2023-07-25, 09:00:

GUS is only an okay sound card with some games specifically designed for it. That doesn't make it worth $500, but speculators pushed its price that high.

The GUS is more than that if you are into Demos from that era. The GUS classic is sold (in auctions) for about 150 Euro. Only the later models like the Max or Extreme are sold for higher prices but those models are quite rare

RandomStranger wrote on 2023-07-25, 09:00:

There are a third group we haven't mention yet. The hoarders. I define them by having an interest in having an interest in retro, rather than plainly having an interest in retro. They pile up a lot of stuff that is accessible with the hopes that one day they'll do something with them. And that never comes.

I've always wondered where to draw the line between collecting, hording and using gear.

I have amassed a decent surplus of computer hardware. Realistically, I'm not likely to use everything I have. On the other hand, since I do actively restore and use old gear, I'm never sure what I might be wanting to use in the future. And given the rarity and prices of some items, as well as potential hardware failures, I'm admittedly reluctant to sell off surplus in the event that I may regret it down the road.

Shponglefan wrote on 2023-07-29, 14:26:

Realistically, I'm not likely to use everything I have.

I'm with you, it's good to have spares. And tinkering with stuff is much, much more enjoyable when you can just browse your collection and try diffferent parts, instead of browsing the internet and hoping to find the part you need. Or at least that's how I explain my hoarding to myself 😀

Part hoarders of the world, unite and take over...

Just today got a package in the mail containing three SB Live! cards and three AGP graphics cards... But what was I supposed to do, they were auctioned for next to nothing and there was literally NO competition for any of them at all! 😳

I've wrestled on and off with whether I'm collecting or hoarding. I currently have six systems stood up, and I may realistically build two more. I also have lots of spare parts that I either found for a steal/free locally, or which people I'm friends with decided to get rid of and I happily took them off their hands.

A friend of mine sort of jokes, sort of seriously remarks that building all these PCs from my childhood/teen years is my midlife crisis. He's not wrong. I rebuild the PC I got in 1997 for Christmas which I built with my dad. I rebuild the PC I took to LAN parties in HS around 2000. I rebuilt the PC I had for a chunk of college. I took a special pleasure in rebuilding the purpose built Doom 3 machine I didn't have to make any compromises with thanks to my college internships.

My compulsion still demands I build a 486/66 like the first family computer we owned, and a Core 2 Duo with a Geforce 8800 GT which was the last PC I built before my father passed away. I may even put Windows Vista on it and give Hellgate: London or Supreme Commander another spin. I still remember how I got stood up for a date, so I walked into Best Buy and treated myself to Supreme Commander instead.

Some people have songs that will take them straight back to whenever they first heard it. Apparently for me in PCs. I fired up Unreal Tournament 2004 on the Athlon XP/GF4 rig I finally finished building, and it took me right back to playing that over LAN with my college roommate in our shared apartment.

Frankly I'm just glad I'm not into retro console stuff. The hardware for retro PCs can be pricy, but the software can usually be had for $10 or less, unless you insist on sealed big box copies.

Shponglefan wrote on 2023-07-24, 15:28:

Nostalgia seems to run in 20-year cycles. It really kicks in once people hit their 30s; that when things from their own youth become sought after.

It's fascinating to me to see how things like even PS2 games selling for hundreds of dollars. Meanwhile, nobody seems to want old Atari 2600 stuff.

Funny, I was reading through an old edition of Official PlayStation Magazine and thought it strange that an Atari compilation appears in the games directory at the back. It took me a while to realise that if you were a gamer in your 30s in the 90s you'd probably be nostalgic for those early consoles. So GT Interactive duly catered to that market. Now, of course, someone in their 30s has absolutely no interest in playing ET once let alone again but is busy reading old PlayStation magazines.

I'm most definitely the hoarder type of collector. I've stopped buying retro hardware, as I just have too much to manage. Now collecting DVDs and BluRays - got over 1000 discs so far, and currently working to complete my Doctor Who collection (got more than half, I'm 2/3 way through Tom Baker for the classic series, and up to Series 6 of the 2005 reboot). Might revert to buying hardware (in particular, RAM and motherboards) if I'm missing anything when I start testing things after carpets are fitted this month (that's when I can put up shelves and unpack from moving home 6 months ago).

if we take hoarding as compulsive hoarding (as opposed to stockpiling) then in order to qualify it should be causing distress to the hoarder, for instance impacting relationships, finances, ability to get around and so on. I think most of us who might be borderline hoarding stop when it reaches a certain point and hence don't get into distress. i have too much stuff though, in a practical sense, it just isn't failing at the rate i imagined it might! 😀 Also, i just find that nearly everything can be done on a 10-12 year old PC anyway making the 32 bit and earlier era interesting but largely unused

btw, collecting DVDs may seem to many to be pointless because "streaming" - but with streaming something may not be available soon, may be edited or otherwise altered in a way you don't like. given just how cheap DVDs in particular are (with lots of people suddenly unable to view non HD things without suffering HD withdrawal apparently) it is worth getting whatever you think you might watch

No hoarding for me, I go for emotional interest and the mechanics of incarnation (lemme explain)

I want to use the hardware because it's a way to incarnate the idea behind the software (games hence narrative) in its purest form, the more I can experience the way the idea was meant to be experienced physically l, the happiest I'm.

It's not always nostalgia based, if I played through emulation a game or watched it, I might get enamoured enough to get the hardware because I want to have a more personal relationship with it, so I might end up caring for something I didn't experience in my childhood.

I may be going through a prolonged mid-life crisis, but I am not hoarding. I know my storage and time constraints, so as I add more interesting things to my 'hoard' I cull the less important and less interesting stuff.

Personally, I'm more interested in being able to run old software on the newest computer. If Windows 10/11 was 100% compatible with Windows9x/DOS, I would give up collecting this 'e-waste' because building working computers from them is often very frustrating.

I have a soft spot for keyboard, specifically SSK type. So I do hoard them. I have complete IBM and Epson sets. Some BTC and Cherry too.
Then I buy only specifically what I want in my collection and currently I'm not actively seeking for anything. And I always try to wait for the hidden\misspelled auction.

For only two items I had to pay good money. A Toshiba Libretto 110ct and a "butterfly" IBM 701c which I paid ~250€ each. Because I really wanted them in my collection and they are too much of rare\known items to be sold for low prices.

Maryoo wrote on 2023-08-01, 09:10:

Personally, I'm more interested in being able to run old software on the newest computer. If Windows 10/11 was 100% compatible with Windows9x/DOS, I would give up collecting this 'e-waste' because building working computers from them is often very frustrating.

Just install 86box?