doublebuffer wrote on 2023-07-20, 12:59:

I'm new to this hobby and this is kinda harshly put but do you ever get a feeling that you're paying too much for what is essentially worthless junk? I don't pay ebay prices but often I'm still thinking whether there is any sense in hoarding old hardware, but on the other hand it's fun to tinker with and re-live some experiences of the childhood and try out different things that were out of reach back then, not to mention how warm and fuzzy it makes me feel to watch an old computer still boot up. Yet sometimes I have this nagging feeling now that I am getting my 5th or 6th system that needs restoration, that maybe I have gone overboard already. Do you know this feel or should I just stop worrying and learn to love the retro?

If it's giving you some enjoyment, as a hobby, then it's not worthless junk. How much you pay for your hobby is up to you. If you spend more than you can afford then maybe you can worry. Or maybe if you have others who depend on you and you spend money on your hobby that could go to household expenses then you can worry.

I am mostly interested in learning more about the computers I could only read about when I was younger and had little to no disposable income. I also like actually refurbishing and using computers that I once used in my career in small business. Back then I bought computers as tools and now they are tossed into the trash. That always bothered me so I decided I would not just trash my old computers or I will take in cast-offs from my friends, family, and associates. This eventually led to my hobby in old computers.

I just finished a project where I refurbed an old NEC PowerMate 286 Plus and added an XT-IDE and CF card and then installed DOS and Windows 286 and Windows 3.0 and then downloaded and installed a ton of old software that was in use back when that computer was used by someone as a daily driver. It was a facinating experience and it took hours of time. Hours I could have used elsewhere. I spent about $50 on the XT-IDE and few more bucks on the CF card. There is no intrinsic value in this little exercise beyond my own entertainment and building of knowledge. But I have already helped others with what I learned about the 80286 platform.

If I were you I would stop worrying and enjoy your hobby.

Seaken

RandomStranger wrote on 2023-07-22, 08:21:

the number of people interested in drops down to a fraction. This whole community on Vogons

This is true, but looking outside of a specific forum like Vogons shows that there are many more collectors than people'd expect. Collectors who don't want to fiddle with hardware for whatever reasons. Vogons is also popular because at least it's active unless some of the other forums out there. What's the most populat post here? "What retro hardware did you buy?" I'm sure a huge number of those posters are collectors who don't want to use or build anything, just got some nice stuff for the collection. If you look at that post page to page you can see a shift from very old hardware to more recent hardware because no offense but everything 286, P2-3, Athlon or whatever 80's-90's thing, benchmark, testing, FPS, DOS and comparisons have been done to death already so people need new projects. That shift will likely continue in the future when new players enter the game. "Oldtimers" ignore a Core 2 Quad post now but newcomers will not and this trend won't stop as long as there are things to collect. Why would interest for these things drop down to a fraction when the need to collect and gather is hard-coded in human nature?
But you know what? If interest in collecting let's say LGA2011 CPUs will drop to nothing then I'll start collecting them because it will mean that it's going to be achievable. I'll get them all! I checked on Ebay and fck: some of these barely 10 years old processors are already going for $2-300! So when is this drop in interest going to happen? People are buying these like it's gourmet food! Sorry for being a smartass about it but collectors will never lose interest in collecting collectibles. Ever.

Capcholo wrote on 2023-07-24, 09:23:

I checked on Ebay and fck: some of these barely 10 years old processors are already going for $2-300!

Ar they though? If I check items sold, the Sandy Bridge-E Extreme Editions usually sell below $40, the Ivy Bridge-E goes Extreme just above $100 and the Haswell-E Extremes usually don't go above $60. Those that are sold for significantly more, it's hard to believe are legit sales between private individuals. When they sell for $30 on auction, it's not likely they'll get any cheaper.

RandomStranger wrote on 2023-07-24, 10:34:

Ar they though?

Let's take EE, sample and everything else out of the equation that would distort pricing.
How much does the average everyday 486 CPU sells for? $20-50, these are roughly 30 years old.
How much for average 2011 sokcket models? $10-50, these are roughly 10 years old.
Why the comparison? Because the collector market should collapse to nothing compared to CPU models that were popular 30 years ago. If I asked anybody on Vogons if these LGA 2011 processors were retro I'd have a hard time finding people who said that they are. They are not retro at all!
Still the market doesn't offer them all for $1 because of the obvious reasons, there are people out there who specialize in collecting them so they are the market. Remember when LGA775 went out of fashion and you could find a huge untested pack of them for $5? Most collectors who collect LGA775 now got most pieces at that time. Then they got the competition and sources slowly dried up so now you have to pay real money to start a 775 collection. How is this different if you want to collect PGA 386? Or Durons? Or 2011 processors? There is a 30 year age difference between these processors and still their pricing is similar unless it's some unique/low volume part.
How come? 386 should cost $500 and 2011 should cost $5 if the interest in them is all gone. So what's up with that?

Capcholo wrote on 2023-07-24, 11:04:

Let's take EE, sample and everything else out of the equation that would distort pricing.

I chose EE, because as the TOP CPU, it's the most desirable for collectors. Even those who just collect high-end stuff and not all models of a generation.
You said they go for$200-300, and they are not. They are listed for that much and usually go for $30-60.

Capcholo wrote on 2023-07-24, 11:04:

Still the market doesn't offer them all for $1 because of the obvious reasons, there are people out there who specialize in collecting them so they are the market.

I highly doubt collectors drive the price of LGA2011.

Capcholo wrote on 2023-07-24, 11:04:

Remember when LGA775 went out of fashion and you could find a huge untested pack of them for $5? Most collectors who collect LGA775 now got most pieces at that time. Then they got the competition and sources slowly dried up so now you have to pay real money to start a 775 collection.

The sources didn't dry up, and the price is strongly dependent on which model of LGA775 CPU are we talking about. High-end models cost money, because they were the rarest to begin with and people are most interested in the top of the crop. The rest are as dirt cheap as ever. You literally can't go low enough with the price to reliably sell a Pentium E5300. Same with s478. Even the CPUs themselves for s423 aren't particularly expensive, and that socket is very uncommon. Unless it's a high-end model or there is something special about the platform (e.g. being very short-lived), the price of CPUs just settle in the $5-20 range, regardless of their age. You can get a 386DX-33 for $20 or cheaper. Same with the 486DX2-80, same with Pentium MMX 200, same with Mendocino 533MHz, same with Pentium 3 733MHz, same with Tualatin Celeron.

The parts that go up in price significantly are those that die, like motherboards.

Capcholo wrote on 2023-07-24, 11:04:

How come? 386 should cost $500 and 2011 should cost $5 if the interest in them is all gone. So what's up with that?

They shouldn't and they don't. The CPU itself, that is. A complete 386 PC from very specific manufacturers might, but there won't be many people lining up to buy them for that much.

doublebuffer wrote on 2023-07-20, 12:59:

I'm new to this hobby and this is kinda harshly put but do you ever get a feeling that you're paying too much for what is essentially worthless junk? I don't pay ebay prices but often I'm still thinking whether there is any sense in hoarding old hardware, but on the other hand it's fun to tinker with and re-live some experiences of the childhood and try out different things that were out of reach back then, not to mention how warm and fuzzy it makes me feel to watch an old computer still boot up. Yet sometimes I have this nagging feeling now that I am getting my 5th or 6th system that needs restoration, that maybe I have gone overboard already. Do you know this feel or should I just stop worrying and learn to love the retro?

Pay what it is worth to you. I think this stuff will have value as long as the people who are interested in it are alive, and have money to spend on it.

It’s kinda like model Ts they should be worth tonnes but no one wants them anymore because no one is alive that drove them. There are collectors sure, but they should be worth more than they are, but they don’t have direct nostalgia anymore.

Sphere478 wrote on 2023-07-24, 12:34:

It’s kinda like model Ts they should be worth tonnes but no one wants them anymore because no one is alive that drove them. There are collectors sure, but they should be worth more than they are, but they don’t have direct nostalgia anymore.

That's good to know. So even it seems the retro prices seem to go increase each year, at some point they should start decline and they won't hold their value in long term. Maybe we're approaching the peak already, there are some Nintendo cartridges that are worth hundreds already - a single game worth of multiple vintage computers (or a GUS 😁). I'm not quite sure how old music albums are appreciated, at least some Beatles albums are collectibles and expensive, but again that might be due to nostalgia, so maybe older records are not worth much because there is no demand. An interesting topic to think about for sure.

doublebuffer wrote on 2023-07-24, 14:12:

Sphere478 wrote on 2023-07-24, 12:34:

It’s kinda like model Ts they should be worth tonnes but no one wants them anymore because no one is alive that drove them. There are collectors sure, but they should be worth more than they are, but they don’t have direct nostalgia anymore.

there are some Nintendo cartridges that are worth hundreds already - a single game worth of multiple vintage computers (or a GUS 😁).

I know the feeling, a couple years back I missed an original Kings Quest (PCJr) for $25 buy it now. Ever since all I ever see them sell for is $200 plus, this one went from $1 USD to $301 USD in two days and still has like 6 days of bidding on it. At this point its pretty much collector item only at collector prices.

I collect PC games, but as for hardware, I think im pretty set and am thinking of selling off GPUS I dont use . I will most likely sell my voodoo 2 and possibly one of my voodoo 3 cards as well as the many ati rage cards I have as well as some readeons and win XP era ATI cards.

Nostalgia seems to run in 20-year cycles. It really kicks in once people hit their 30s; that when things from their own youth become sought after.

It's fascinating to me to see how things like even PS2 games selling for hundreds of dollars. Meanwhile, nobody seems to want old Atari 2600 stuff.

doublebuffer wrote on 2023-07-24, 14:12:

Sphere478 wrote on 2023-07-24, 12:34:

It’s kinda like model Ts they should be worth tonnes but no one wants them anymore because no one is alive that drove them. There are collectors sure, but they should be worth more than they are, but they don’t have direct nostalgia anymore.

That's good to know. So even it seems the retro prices seem to go increase each year, at some point they should start decline and they won't hold their value in long term. Maybe we're approaching the peak already, there are some Nintendo cartridges that are worth hundreds already - a single game worth of multiple vintage computers (or a GUS 😁). I'm not quite sure how old music albums are appreciated, at least some Beatles albums are collectibles and expensive, but again that might be due to nostalgia, so maybe older records are not worth much because there is no demand. An interesting topic to think about for sure.

one way to gauge the nostalgia multiplier for collector prices is to consider the ages of buyers and their incomes, hence its often middle aged and later middle aged people - the time of highest income and interest while there is still a fair amount of the item left. once the item becomes rare the prices can leave 'ordinary' enthusiasts out completely. I think rarity can trump that. Model T's go for high prices but there are still quite a few around, something rare like a packard six can go for lots more

interesting about older records, many from the 1940s and 50s - there were millions pressed and to be honest most record enthusiasts now are not only unaware of the singers but so are there elderly parents. all those people with recording careers who once had the joy of releasing an LP, now almost completely forgotten - some probably even out of wikipedia's reach!

i sometimes think the same about more obscure older games, imagine the time spend by someone or some team detailing the maps, deciding where to place the objects, tackling a work around to a game engine quirk and so on, all those hours - then the game releases, spends a few weeks in the lower part of the sales numbers and disappears only to (possibly) re emerge on a small subscriber "rare and obscure games" YouTube channel!

Shponglefan wrote on 2023-07-24, 15:28:

Nostalgia seems to run in 20-year cycles. It really kicks in once people hit their 30s; that when things from their own youth become sought after.

It's fascinating to me to see how things like even PS2 games selling for hundreds of dollars. Meanwhile, nobody seems to want old Atari 2600 stuff.

yes, an interesting example - but might it be that PS2 games are just better - i mean better to play now, more fun and so on and also can be played, many people still having a working PS2 system - and thats enough to overcome age and rarity (are 2600 games rare maybe not really)

most ps2 games i see cost very little, but some are indeed highly sought after

gerry wrote on 2023-07-24, 15:36:

yes, an interesting example - but might it be that PS2 games are just better - i mean better to play now, more fun and so on and also can be played, many people still having a working PS2 system - and thats enough to overcome age and rarity (are 2600 games rare maybe not really)

What I find odd is a lot of the expensive games also aren't very good quality-wise.

For example I was shocked to see how much Silent Hill 4 goes for. It's not a great game and doesn't seem to be particularly rare given the availability of copies on Ebay. Yet, it still sells for between $100-$200 for some reason.

I wonder if console games are experiencing a price bubble similar to comic books of the 1990s. How much of game collecting is being driven by speculators?

Capcholo wrote on 2023-07-24, 09:23:

some of these barely 10 years old processors are already going for $2-300! So when is this drop in interest going to happen?

A 10 year old CPU is still useful today and I could imagine that people are now upgrading their PCs to the fastest CPU their board can handle. If I hadn't done that already I would do it now. My main system is an i7 3770

Shponglefan wrote on 2023-07-24, 15:48:

I wonder if modern console games are experiencing a price bubble similar to comic books of the 1990s. How much of game collecting is being driven by speculators?

Have you seen the video from Karl Jobst on this?

HanSolo wrote on 2023-07-24, 16:49:

Have you seen the video from Karl Jobst on this?

I have not. Which video is it?

Shponglefan wrote on 2023-07-24, 16:53:

HanSolo wrote on 2023-07-24, 16:49:

Have you seen the video from Karl Jobst on this?

I have not. Which video is it?

It's impressive how well he researched the topic:
Exposing FRAUD And DECEPTION In The Retro Video Game Market
and the follow-up videos:
The Retro Video Game Scam Gets Worse...
Wata Games SUED For Market Manipulation!
Video Game Collector Calls Me A Fraud

Like it was said many times around the forum, in many countries you can get PCs for 10 bucks / euros or even less as a good base to start, maybe ranging from Pentium IIs to even 10 year old PCs by now. Some countries are harder than others, but for the most part this still applies.

That's why, as it was already pointed out, that it's hard for many people to acknowledge into the "gatekeeping by pricing out" aspect of the hobby. It's still perfectly possible for those values nowadays to get anything from either a nice retro machine up to a basic daily driver for web browsing and era appropriate gaming. And many times you even end up getting nice surprises inside, which is most of the fun. Even if you'd just like a couple of IDE cables, why pay 5 bucks/euros for each plus postage when you can just get a filled up tower PC for 10 euros or less for spare parts?

And after you have that base PC as a newcomer to the hobby, if after some time you're not satisfied for some reason or you have a desire for more specific stuff, due to nostalgia, recommendations, etc., then you either buy it, look harder and smarter, or have patience.

Ebay is no reference for anything, in my view. It's mainly useful for me in the not so common instance where I would need a more exotic component, like a custom made cable and such. Which is rare as I'm not even a collector. One or two specific components that I really wanted that were harder to find were bought through the "make an offer" option. Politeness and common sense plus a reasonable offer for both parties can go a long way. But for everything else most people still have access to other options, such as local classifieds, thrift or charity shops, family, friends or coworkers that have unused or unwanted stuff lying around in storage, etc. Many countries still have many local mom and pop style computer stores, if you're so sick and tired of Ebay sellers have a talk with them for a change, you'd be surprised at the type of things they may have stored away from 20 or more years ago.

Most people have the possibility to cheaply enter the hobby and play their retro games with good quality and performance, and that's all you can ask for. Everything else you might want beyond that then it's a simple desire or even a novelty, which is fine, but then you take it as it is and either put in the time to look for it, or buy it, possibly at a price that reflects the novelty aspect of it. That's just how it is, you do what you want with your money.

Some complaints we get to see around the forum from time to time just reflect the attitude that was already mentioned in this thread, that of collectors/hoarders that are frustrated at not being able to get tons of free hardware without any "competition" (whatever the hell that means in a personal hobby!), and use thinly veiled arguments relating other aspects. Particularly unpleasant for me in the past was reading blatant proposals for gatekeeping the hobby as means of controlling the "rising prices". And it really is true, it's the same for every hobby, I've seen it myself. It's funny how a simple thing as a hobby can bring out the petulant and selfish child from within adults.

For me, enjoy and put to use what you have, I'm sure everyone has an item or two they particularly love or can be proud of having found. There's enough out there for everyone. Sometimes it's even the less valuable stuff that ends up becoming a favorite. This stuff won't last forever, and it will either not work anymore or be considered uninteresting relics in not that long

Shponglefan wrote on 2023-07-24, 15:48:

I wonder if modern console games are experiencing a price bubble similar to comic books of the 1990s. How much of game collecting is being driven by speculators?

You mean games with upwards from 50GB day1 patches, discs that doesn't contain the entire game and are unplayable without connection to the update servers and games that has always online DRM. Motorstorm already suffers from these issues.
https://youtu.be/KmtrZ-VibpY
And among others recent Gran Tourismos will.
https://youtu.be/FtwlV1ZcbLM

I wouldn't buy up cheap copies of these games as part of a long term investment plan.

Ya game prices were artifically bloated. Its insane how people can manipulate things to profit . Also it didnt help with that big PC game scandal that went on with that Andreas something with a B was selling fake PC games. Hes even on ebay right now selling a copy of Doom but anyone who was scammed by him are wary of this listing. Im sure some of you know the story, if not Ill try to find it to post.

HanSolo wrote on 2023-07-24, 17:06:

It's impressive how well he researched the topic: Exposing FRAUD And DECEPTION In The Retro Video Game Market and the follow-up […]
Show full quote

Shponglefan wrote on 2023-07-24, 16:53:

HanSolo wrote on 2023-07-24, 16:49:

Have you seen the video from Karl Jobst on this?

I have not. Which video is it?

It's impressive how well he researched the topic:
Exposing FRAUD And DECEPTION In The Retro Video Game Market
and the follow-up videos:
The Retro Video Game Scam Gets Worse...
Wata Games SUED For Market Manipulation!
Video Game Collector Calls Me A Fraud

Just watched the first video, that was something else! Had no idea there was that much manipulation going on.

Although it does now make sense the various 'graded' games I'd see for sale for ridiculous prices.

It's pretty depressing to see the hobby perverted by these market manipulators and exploiters.