I just watched part of a dvd I found for sale at the library. Dr. Who, 8th season, with Jenna and Capaldi. On a small but rather magnificent Toshiba tv. No lcd beats it. The end of each episode has the BBC logo with a spectrum of color. I'm not knocking lcds, but it's a unique experience. Maybe a larger (then 14"l tube wouldn't loom as smashing. But maybe it would.

creepingnet wrote on 2023-08-15, 21:42:

For TVs I'm using a Rhapsody 5" CRT Portable for fun little shennanigans. When it's not running, it's on display. I mostly use it with my Atari 2600. It's funny because the ATARI can act as a TV stand for it, 🤣.

For 16 bit and 8 bit consoles like the NES or Sega MD I don't mind playing them on LCD panels that much. Input lag is a bigger deal to me than the sharp pixels.

For really early home consoles like the Atari VCS and coleco vision, ect I feel like a significant amount of the experience is lost in emulation. You need the RF to distort everything to make it tolerable. Atari sound effects on a real console with a CRT are not bad at all, but with emulation (no filtering) everything is shrill and unpleasant. The same is true for the color.

Some older TV shows look much better on a CRT as well imo. I'm watching the original Star Trek again and prefer it on my CRT. The effects look worse on a high def tv and the actor's eye makeup is a lot more noticeable. Sometimes less is more. I'll also vouch for getting a smaller CRT TV for old games. I have a little 13 incher on my desk. It doesn't get hot or take up much room, so a lot of the criticisms don't apply to it.

shamino wrote on 2023-08-16, 00:22:

For old computers I'm normally fine with an LCD, but not in DOS where there is a 72Hz refresh issue.
I have a 17" CRT monitor I'd like to use for a DOS PC, but it's not working. It had a fantastic picture but after one of PG&E's many power events it wouldn't turn on anymore. I need to dig into that someday, I'm hoping there's a simple fuse somewhere but I want to learn more about it first.
Right now, the only solution I have for 72Hz DOS games is a TN panel. I have a few IPS/VA monitors, but those panels don't like anything other than 60Hz. Those monitors "accept" up to 75Hz but they just convert it to 60Hz internally, which causes irritating stutter in anything that scrolls. I guess modern IPS monitors have more flexible refresh rates, and maybe some of them can hook up to VGA, but I don't have anything like that.

A TN pannel 'in general' won't help you with than. I have tested many monitors and the only ones that show 70Hz (not 72) in DOS are three old ones which have a VGA cable only. No DVI and the VGA cable is not detachable. (And all three have built in speakers but I doubt that this has anything to do with it 😀 ) Surely there are other models that also do it correctly but unless you don't know for sure about a specific model I wouldn't expect it.
Such old LCDs with VGA only are also getting harder to find these days.

I often find the monitors that support 70 HZ are often the lower resolution ones because they just have less pixels to push around. For anything above 1024x768 it becomes less likely to support more than 60 Hz (but they do exist). For me the most annoying thing about digital screens is that they assume anything 70 Hz is the good old text mode for BIOS and legacy business applications, so 320x200 is always messed up (whether it is stretched or not). Dithered graphics or text looks awful because not all pixels have the same width.

The argument about CRT vs OLED comes up in these topics all the time, it's so damn funny.
Some people always feel the need to compare these technologies like it's a holy mission. CRT is better! OLED is better! µLED is going to be better than everything ever made!
Screw that noise guys, nothing beats the black levels on this CRT:

Tens of millions of prescription glasses don't lie.

Casper eh.. That is a rather poor quality Turkish OEM..

That monitor was probably junk even for its time.

HanSolo wrote on 2023-08-16, 07:37:

shamino wrote on 2023-08-16, 00:22:

For old computers I'm normally fine with an LCD, but not in DOS where there is a 72Hz refresh issue.
I have a 17" CRT monitor I'd like to use for a DOS PC, but it's not working. It had a fantastic picture but after one of PG&E's many power events it wouldn't turn on anymore. I need to dig into that someday, I'm hoping there's a simple fuse somewhere but I want to learn more about it first.
Right now, the only solution I have for 72Hz DOS games is a TN panel. I have a few IPS/VA monitors, but those panels don't like anything other than 60Hz. Those monitors "accept" up to 75Hz but they just convert it to 60Hz internally, which causes irritating stutter in anything that scrolls. I guess modern IPS monitors have more flexible refresh rates, and maybe some of them can hook up to VGA, but I don't have anything like that.

A TN pannel 'in general' won't help you with than. I have tested many monitors and the only ones that show 70Hz (not 72) in DOS are three old ones which have a VGA cable only. No DVI and the VGA cable is not detachable. (And all three have built in speakers but I doubt that this has anything to do with it 😀 ) Surely there are other models that also do it correctly but unless you don't know for sure about a specific model I wouldn't expect it.
Such old LCDs with VGA only are also getting harder to find these days.

The TN panels I've used are in monitors from the late 2000s. They show smooth scrolling at 70Hz in DOS, unlike the IPS and VA monitors I've tried. But I can only remember 2 TN monitors I tried this with. One is a Samsung 930B, which is actually 5:4, and it does distort the image a bit.
The other is a Samsung 943SWX, which is an early 16:9 1360x768. It can crop the image to the same 4:3 size as a 15" 1024x768 and also does 70Hz correctly, but of course the resolution isn't an integer scale of 320x200.
These monitors both have DVI, but I'm pretty sure they have to use the VGA port to display 70Hz because of some DVI limitation.
The HP LP2065 is a 20" 4:3 with a softness option in the menu - I like these as retro monitors for Windows but unfortunately they stutter in DOS at 70Hz because of the IPS panel. One of mine is a VA but I'm pretty sure it has the same issue.

mothergoose729 wrote on 2023-08-16, 06:38:

For 16 bit and 8 bit consoles like the NES or Sega MD I don't mind playing them on LCD panels that much. Input lag is a bigger deal to me than the sharp pixels.

For really early home consoles like the Atari VCS and coleco vision, ect I feel like a significant amount of the experience is lost in emulation. You need the RF to distort everything to make it tolerable. Atari sound effects on a real console with a CRT are not bad at all, but with emulation (no filtering) everything is shrill and unpleasant. The same is true for the color.

I agree on input lag, that's the #1 annoyance for me. Some are unplayable, while other LCDs minimize it to the point that it's not bothering me much. But I still don't like it.
Nothing is more infuriating in a platformer than input lag. This in my opinion has killed the genre. There are some modern platformers but I never seem to like them.
To make it worse, there seems to be a modern fashion of excessively animating everything (just because they can). So between animation and input lag, these games have become annoyingly unresponsive to play. I might be the only person who loves Contra but hated Cuphead. I think that game wanted to be a cartoon more than it wanted to be a game.

With many old game consoles there are some nasty graphical artifacts in the overscan area which you aren't supposed to see, but they are plainly part of the image on an LCD. Pretty much every MD/Genesis game has odd things spilling into the overscan area, and with NES you see all the tiles getting drawn. Visible overscan makes these games look ugly.
Atari VCS is a funny machine because the game is in control of how many scanlines get displayed. Some of them deviate from "normal" broadcast standards, and LCDs aren't as tolerant of that as CRTs were.

Getting more subjective, I think the graphics on 20th century game systems look better on CRTs because that's what everybody was looking at when they designed them.
I don't think that issue affects computer games as much, because computer monitors were higher quality tubes with no overscan, sharper resolution and better color than TVs. As a result there's less of a difference between how they looked and how a modern monitor looks, so the graphics translate over better.

mothergoose729 wrote on 2023-08-16, 06:38:

creepingnet wrote on 2023-08-15, 21:42:

For TVs I'm using a Rhapsody 5" CRT Portable for fun little shennanigans. When it's not running, it's on display. I mostly use it with my Atari 2600. It's funny because the ATARI can act as a TV stand for it, 🤣.

For 16 bit and 8 bit consoles like the NES or Sega MD I don't mind playing them on LCD panels that much. Input lag is a bigger deal to me than the sharp pixels.

For really early home consoles like the Atari VCS and coleco vision, ect I feel like a significant amount of the experience is lost in emulation. You need the RF to distort everything to make it tolerable. Atari sound effects on a real console with a CRT are not bad at all, but with emulation (no filtering) everything is shrill and unpleasant. The same is true for the color.

Actually, your answer brings up an interesting point I forgot to point out about the Atari 2600 specifically....

The RF Artifacts are a HUGE part of the experience and hence why I REFUSE to put a AV mod on mine.

A lot of the early games almost had a 3D-like effect, such as Combat, Adventure, Space War, Bowling, and some others. It's like the objects on screen have a mild to moderate shadow to them, which makes them almost look 3D in a way more real than some modern polygonal 3D games are - almost like construction paper objects taped to the screen. While I you get a reproduction of this on an LCD, it REALLY comes out on an CRT device, even in black & white.

Someone else mentioned input lag, this is another reason I have CRTs. I dunno if it's my musician side showing or if it's just I'm used to paying attention to minutia that most people don't, but most modern TV's have really shitty DSP (Digital Signal Processing) and on a lot of them, even with game mode, you can't fully turn it off. This is probably one reason I've played a lot more RPGs than Mario on my NES in recent years, because Dragon Warrior is not dependant on lightning reflexes, and a TV that's not trying to hide the fact it's still doing some signal processing even in "Game Mode". I own THREE 4K UHD TVs (Sharp, Samsung, and TCL), and a 1989 Mitsubishi CRT - I ALWAYS want to use the Mitsubishi because it just feels WAY more responsive. I'm still scheming a way to put that beast in the garage with my 4K TV (or give it to someone else and get a smaller CRT).

Input lag is one reason I have CRTs as well. It drives me NUTS because I'm VERY sensitive to it. Not sure if it's my guitarist coming out or if it's truly that I've played some of these games so much the finite timing needed for certain maneuvers is really important. I have three 4K UHD TVs, all three have DSP, and all but one have shown "Game Mode" only turns a portion of it off - and the one that seems to do it fully, is my 2014 Samsung that cost $800 - which lives in my garage now. But it's still not the same when the picture is so precise everything looks like it's made out of lego blocks - even the Atari on RF.

To me, a lot of things are lost in emulation. First off, playing with a Keyboard, then there's the graphical artifacts, smoothing provided by lower dot pitch, playing "paddle" and "Driving" games with a mouse. To me, especially the Atari 2600, one of the most charming scenarios I think a lot of people can relate to is a mildly balmy summer night with the windows open and crickets outside playing VCS games in the dark with a big box of random controllers and a mix of carts with some unfamiliar. Almost an eerie vibe with the RF interference patterns and 3D-like look of some of the older stuff with a bright background.

That said, not to veer off topic too much, but I have a weird nostalgia for old DOS emulators as well because that's part of what got me back INTO retro-games before they were called "retro games" in the 1990's. I almost never install something like Stella or FCEUx on my modern pc's anymore, but occasionally I do have a random 486 (or several) I'll pop on NESticle, Genecyst, or Z26 on because I still remember those crazy days of the mid-late 1990's when emulation was *new* to the masses via the internet and a way a lot of us found new favorites. I sought out a LOT of Atari 2600 games I'd never played just because of playing them on an Emulator alone. But it's a different experience compared to the real thing on a real console on a real CRT TV like intended back in the day.

How is input lag a thing for monitors? I mean, I can get complaining about DSPs on TVs, but those are TVs not monitors. Complaining about TV sets then generalizing that to computer monitors is hardly a fair or legitimate concern. I have yet to experience any input lag on a computer monitor.

Yeah, monitors have fraction of a frame of input lag (depending largely on input resolution mismatch with native) rather than whole or several frames, at least ones I have used over the years. There may be monitors that do actual framerate conversion though and that is an always lose situation.

appiah4 wrote on 2023-08-16, 15:02:

How is input lag a thing for monitors? I mean, I can get complaining about DSPs on TVs, but those are TVs not monitors. Complaining about TV sets then generalizing that to computer monitors is hardly a fair or legitimate concern. I have yet to experience any input lag on a computer monitor.

You can have emulation without input lag, but the setup you need is still pretty specific. It is way better than it used to be.

appiah4 wrote on 2023-08-16, 15:02:

How is input lag a thing for monitors? I mean, I can get complaining about DSPs on TVs, but those are TVs not monitors. Complaining about TV sets then generalizing that to computer monitors is hardly a fair or legitimate concern. I have yet to experience any input lag on a computer monitor.

Was not talking about computer monitors at all, my reply was strictly regarding TV sets and the experiences of running classic consoles, and even sometimes, classic computers on them (I'm known to sometimes attach my old DOS machines to TVs via S-Video or Composite via a VGA converter).

My issue with computer MONITORS only regards vintage PCs and it's a bit unique as well. Some older PC LCDs I've used are a little..uh....persnickety about older graphics cards and graphics modes. At one time, I had an HP 4:3 LCD on my 486 with a 2MB VESA Video card. It worked great attached to a modern PC (at the time would have been Core 2 or Pentium D), but it did VERY weird and awful things when attached to the 486 like power button does not respond, static image stuck on screen while in use, flickering on and off by itself. That thing was awful. That said, I found that Dell D-series and E-series monitors are AWESOME for vintage stuff. Though you still have a problem with Jaggy lines in DOS games, and some monitors in widescreen don't have an ability to work with a 4:3 without stretching the image due to a lack of settings for 4:3 "Squash" mode. But it's definatley usable.

appiah4 wrote on 2023-08-16, 11:19:

Casper eh.. That is a rather poor quality Turkish OEM..
That monitor was probably junk even for its time.

Maybe, but this model was made in Taiwan for an American OEM company, Electro Service Corp, in 1989. Still nice and bright tube, no burn-in.

creepingnet wrote on 2023-08-16, 18:54:

Was not talking about computer monitors at all, my reply was strictly regarding TV sets and the experiences of running classic consoles, and even sometimes, classic computers on them (I'm known to sometimes attach my old DOS machines to TVs via S-Video or Composite via a VGA converter).

How well does a CRT tv work for DOS gaming? I'd assume that it would look pretty bad, especially if there is any text, but I never tried this myself. Do you have to stick to really old games, like those with CGA graphics?

This has gotten me a bit intrigued. I'm tempted to get an old black and white TV for some really lofi monochrome graphics gaming.

Ensign Nemo wrote on 2023-08-16, 19:42:

creepingnet wrote on 2023-08-16, 18:54:

Was not talking about computer monitors at all, my reply was strictly regarding TV sets and the experiences of running classic consoles, and even sometimes, classic computers on them (I'm known to sometimes attach my old DOS machines to TVs via S-Video or Composite via a VGA converter).

How well does a CRT tv work for DOS gaming? I'd assume that it would look pretty bad, especially if there is any text, but I never tried this myself. Do you have to stick to really old games, like those with CGA graphics?

This has gotten me a bit intrigued. I'm tempted to get an old black and white TV for some really lofi monochrome graphics gaming.

It actually looks amazing with a 320x200 game in RGB using the VGATV TSR to force the video card to output 15kHz RGBHV

maxtherabbit wrote on 2023-08-16, 21:01:

Ensign Nemo wrote on 2023-08-16, 19:42:

creepingnet wrote on 2023-08-16, 18:54:

Was not talking about computer monitors at all, my reply was strictly regarding TV sets and the experiences of running classic consoles, and even sometimes, classic computers on them (I'm known to sometimes attach my old DOS machines to TVs via S-Video or Composite via a VGA converter).

How well does a CRT tv work for DOS gaming? I'd assume that it would look pretty bad, especially if there is any text, but I never tried this myself. Do you have to stick to really old games, like those with CGA graphics?

This has gotten me a bit intrigued. I'm tempted to get an old black and white TV for some really lofi monochrome graphics gaming.

It actually looks amazing with a 320x200 game in RGB using the VGATV TSR to force the video card to output 15kHz RGBHV

Cool. I'll have to try this!

I think everyone should own a couple.

Yeah, I love CRTs. I counted 17 of them in my small apartment.

They're bulky and heavy, and I ain't a big dude. But I'll jump right in that dumpster to recover that big ol' tube, haul it over to my car, wrestle it in there somehow, no problem. I've had to move them all before, it's not horrible. Labor of love.

CRTs are absolutely worth preserving. Why? Because I like them. You like them. And if I were born today, seeing "old-timey" tube TV tech would endlessly fascinate me. Preserving them for that guy.

A couple of my favorites include the Tandy CM-11 and the AppleColor RGB monitors.

Not having a CRT kills the mood a little for messing around with the machines in my collection. They all have a tube monitor or TV except for the PAL C64. I don't have a PAL tube yet.

I've used a RGB modded CRT TV for my emulation setup. Now I'm using a larger TV with component inputs. Doing the whole CRT Emudriver on a Win 7 box thing.

Learning to address the issues with them as I go. Already had electronics background, when going into learning to service them, that certainly helps.

There's nothing like a tube. Nothing.

Ensign Nemo wrote on 2023-08-16, 19:42:

creepingnet wrote on 2023-08-16, 18:54:

Was not talking about computer monitors at all, my reply was strictly regarding TV sets and the experiences of running classic consoles, and even sometimes, classic computers on them (I'm known to sometimes attach my old DOS machines to TVs via S-Video or Composite via a VGA converter).

How well does a CRT tv work for DOS gaming? I'd assume that it would look pretty bad, especially if there is any text, but I never tried this myself. Do you have to stick to really old games, like those with CGA graphics?

This has gotten me a bit intrigued. I'm tempted to get an old black and white TV for some really lofi monochrome graphics gaming.

TBH, I love using them for DOS gaming, I have a 1989 Mitsubishi CS2720R that I've got some more resto-work to do on that I was using with my ACI Moondog 486 DX4-100 for awhile. I use cheap VGA to Composite converters on it, and even at it's worst (that horrid Fosmon thing they sell on E-bay for $15), and even on the worst little Fosmon VGA to Composite converter it looks stunning (especially in S-Video). I eventually do want to have a DOS setup that's more like a Console so that more of us can gather in my "Man-Cave Garage" and play DOS games while passing around a wireless keyboard. I tend to find the colors are a bit more vivid and brighter on the TV than they are on the CRT, but I also think some of that is the active circuitry driving the picture to the edge of overdrive.

creepingnet wrote on 2023-08-21, 16:17:

Ensign Nemo wrote on 2023-08-16, 19:42:

creepingnet wrote on 2023-08-16, 18:54:

Was not talking about computer monitors at all, my reply was strictly regarding TV sets and the experiences of running classic consoles, and even sometimes, classic computers on them (I'm known to sometimes attach my old DOS machines to TVs via S-Video or Composite via a VGA converter).

How well does a CRT tv work for DOS gaming? I'd assume that it would look pretty bad, especially if there is any text, but I never tried this myself. Do you have to stick to really old games, like those with CGA graphics?

This has gotten me a bit intrigued. I'm tempted to get an old black and white TV for some really lofi monochrome graphics gaming.

TBH, I love using them for DOS gaming, I have a 1989 Mitsubishi CS2720R that I've got some more resto-work to do on that I was using with my ACI Moondog 486 DX4-100 for awhile. I use cheap VGA to Composite converters on it, and even at it's worst (that horrid Fosmon thing they sell on E-bay for $15), and even on the worst little Fosmon VGA to Composite converter it looks stunning (especially in S-Video). I eventually do want to have a DOS setup that's more like a Console so that more of us can gather in my "Man-Cave Garage" and play DOS games while passing around a wireless keyboard. I tend to find the colors are a bit more vivid and brighter on the TV than they are on the CRT, but I also think some of that is the active circuitry driving the picture to the edge of overdrive.

You guys have convinced me to try this. I just picked up a little VGA to AV converter. Thanks!