if the multi is reduced to integer value i.e. from 14.5x to 14x or 13x, if it is possible

Yeah, you can lower multiplier, which may or may nor brake Cool&Quiet feature, depending on motherboard implementation.

brian105 wrote on 2023-10-04, 13:14:

BitWrangler wrote on 2023-10-04, 12:53:

so if it turns out I can patch BIOS for that, I will.

I'd also love to be able to mod my AM2 BIOS for AM2+ or even AM3. Later Phenoms are just so much faster than the Athlon 64s.

stef80 wrote on 2023-10-04, 13:15:

@analog_programmer
you can always do that

Nope, I can not add support for Phenoms into this KN9 BIOS.

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2023-10-04, 13:15:

if the multi is reduced to integer value i.e. from 14.5x to 14x or 13x, if it is possible

Yeah, you can lower multiplier, which may or may nor brake Cool&Quiet feature, depending on motherboard implementation.

Sooo, 5400+ it will be. Just to be sure that there will be no problems with RAM divider or C'n'Q. Thanks a lot!

stef80 wrote on 2023-10-04, 12:57:

There was tool for AM2 CPUs to calculate FSB/memory dividers. Will post if I manage to dig it up.

This will be of use to see what will happen with DDR frequency at different FSB-multi-RAMdivider combinations. Hmmmm, I've to check one German O'C site with some interactive tools. Hope it's still up and running.

analog_programmer wrote on 2023-10-04, 13:12:

I've read on other forums quite a lot about modding of NF4 mobos for Phenom support. Seems that there is no way to insert AGESA code into the BIOS if not already done by manufacturer.

There is a difference in the initialization of the CPU in the bootblock. AGESA is initialized after, somewhere even after HTinit and MEMinit.
Manipulations with AGESA are possible on AM2+ boards for AM3 CPU support. To AM2, the BIOS needs to be rewritten by the vendor.

analog_programmer wrote on 2023-10-04, 13:20:

This will be of use to see what will happen with DDR frequency at different FSB-multi-RAMdivider combinations. Hmmmm, I've to check one German O'C site with some interactive tools. Hope it's still up and running.

You can always reduce the memory divider when increasing the FSB frequency in order to return the memory frequency to the required one.
For example,
FSB=200, RAM=200, HT=800. That is 1:1:4
We set the FSB to 300 (optimistic), the memory frequency in the BIOS to 133 (it will be 200) and the HyperTransport divider to 3 instead of 4.
Result 300:200:900.

shevalier wrote on 2023-10-04, 14:02:

There is a difference in the initialization of the CPU in the bootblock. AGESA is initialized after, somewhere even after HTinit and MEMinit.
Manipulations with AGESA are possible on AM2+ boards for AM3 CPU support. To AM2, the BIOS needs to be rewritten by the vendor.

Yep, that's what I'm "talkin'" about. Adding K10 (Phenom) support in this Abit KN9 BIOS is not possible.

shevalier wrote on 2023-10-04, 14:08:

You can always reduce the memory divider when increasing the FSB frequency in order to return the memory frequency to the requir […]
Show full quote

You can always reduce the memory divider when increasing the FSB frequency in order to return the memory frequency to the required one.
For example,
FSB=200, RAM=200, HT=800. That is 1:1:4
We set the FSB to 300 (optimistic), the memory frequency in the BIOS to 133 (it will be 200) and the HyperTransport divider to 3 instead of 4.
Result 300:200:900.

Of course, but without the CPU I can't revive the mobo to see what RAM-dividers its BIOS supports. A bit of a stupid situation 😁

The German site is up and running, but there's no interactive tools for Athlon 64 clock calculations, but only for PCU's pins-wire-mods which is of no use to me right now.

analog_programmer wrote on 2023-10-04, 14:18:

Of course, but without the CPU I can't revive the mobo to see what RAM-dividers its BIOS supports. A bit of a stupid situation 😁

Then solve this situation in a stupid way.
Download the BIOS, download the modbin (Award BIOS utility, does not work on 64-bit OS) and navigate through the BIOS menu.

shevalier wrote on 2023-10-04, 14:29:

Then solve this situation in a stupid way.
Download the BIOS, download the modbin (Award BIOS utility, does not work on 64-bit OS) and navigate through the BIOS menu.

Actually this is very good idea. Tnahks! I think it's a Phoenix BIOS, have to see which MODBIN version will match.

UPDATE: In the leftovers from the Abit's site there is no healthy zip-file downloads for my KN9's BIOS. Thanks to Soggi's site I've latest 15 and 18-beta BIOS verions. I'm pretty sure my motherboard's BIOS is latest official version 15 since I always update to the latest version while I'm using motherboards, laptops, etc.

I've MODBIN6 ver.2.00.00 and it crashed on trying to open the BIOS bin-file in DOSBox. What version of MODBIN6 I have to search for now? (Linux user, but I think I've working win7 installation on some old laptop)

analog_programmer wrote on 2023-10-04, 14:59:

Actually this is very good idea. Tnahks! I think it's a Phoenix BIOS, have to see which MODBIN version will match. […]
Show full quote

shevalier wrote on 2023-10-04, 14:29:

Then solve this situation in a stupid way.
Download the BIOS, download the modbin (Award BIOS utility, does not work on 64-bit OS) and navigate through the BIOS menu.

Actually this is very good idea. Tnahks! I think it's a Phoenix BIOS, have to see which MODBIN version will match.

UPDATE: In the leftovers from the Abit's site there is no healthy zip-file downloads for my KN9's BIOS. Thanks to Soggi's site I've latest 15 and 18-beta BIOS verions. I'm pretty sure my motherboard's BIOS is latest official version 15 since I always update to the latest version while I'm using motherboards, laptops, etc.

I've MODBIN6 ver.2.00.00 and it crashed on trying to open the BIOS bin-file in DOSBox. What version of MODBIN6 I have to search for now? (Linux user, but I think I've working win7 installation on some old laptop)

What guy stated is you need a 32 bit OS or do it via DOS.

Cheers,

shevalier wrote on 2023-10-04, 14:29:

Then solve this situation in a stupid way.
Download the BIOS, download the modbin (Award BIOS utility, does not work on 64-bit OS) and navigate through the BIOS menu.

So far, so good... found working MODBIN6 version. Here's the result from latest non-beta BIOS ver.15:

There're frequencies for DDR2 instead of the divisisors ratios. Sh*t!

So what...?

Bonus stupid question: What is this "DQS Timing Training" in the same DDR2 settings menu?

analog_programmer wrote on 2023-10-04, 16:43:

There're frequencies for DDR2 instead of the divisisors ratios. Sh*t!

So what...?

Divide by 200. I.e. 2 or 2.66 or 3.33 or 4.
FSB = 200 and RAM = 4*200=800 or =3.33*200=667
FSB = 240 and RAM = 4*240=960 or = 3.33*240=799

analog_programmer wrote on 2023-10-04, 16:43:

Bonus stupid question: What is this "DQS Timing Training" in the same DDR2 settings menu?

Auto-adjustment of sub-timings (which are not set in the BIOS) every time you turn on.
This often causes problems, so when overclocking it is better to turn off.

shevalier wrote on 2023-10-04, 18:43:

Divide by 200. I.e. 2 or 2.66 or 3.33 or 4.
FSB = 200 and RAM = 4*200=800 or =3.33*200=667
FSB = 240 and RAM = 4*240=960 or = 3.33*240=799

I'll rename this stupid fixed DDR2 frequency fields to FSB x 2/1, FSB x 8/3, FSB x 10/3 and FSB x 4/1, so it will be easier to calculate the resulting DDR2 frequency by just knowing selected FSB frequency. It's a shame that this is an oveclocker's mobo and some options in the BIOS are so stupidly labeled. Also there are so many locked BIOS menu items. I whish I had this MODBIN tool back in the days when I bought this mobo brand new...

shevalier wrote on 2023-10-04, 18:43:

Auto-adjustment of sub-timings (which are not set in the BIOS) every time you turn on.
This often causes problems, so when overclocking it is better to turn off.

I didn't know that. Thanks for all the help, information and suggestions!

P.S. Does anybody knows if there will be some benefit if I mod the chipset from NF4 Ultra to SLI (a matter of one resistor). Of course the mobo has no option to accept transplantation of second PCI-E slot for videocard ( 😁 ), but isn't the NF4 SLI superior than Ultra version in some internal ways?

Don't mod it. It's a nice board for what it is.

HTT/DDR2 calculator for AM2: http://downloads.pcrpg.org/comp/automemcalc.zip

stef80 wrote on 2023-10-05, 04:46:

Don't mod it. It's a nice board for what it is.

HTT/DDR2 calculator for AM2: http://downloads.pcrpg.org/comp/automemcalc.zip

Thank you for this convenient little tool. At first I thought "WTF HTT (hypertransport bus) of 150 to 350 MHz?", but then realized it is wrong and this is actually FSB. Remembered - RAM frequency depends on hypertransport's frequency not directly on CPU's, so it's not so easy to adjust stable overclock just by FSB and CPU multi.

As for the NF4 Ultra -> SLI mod it's reversible, so maybe one day I'll try it just for benchmarking purposes.

P.S. About the mentioned problem for the non-integer CPU multiplier values: I think it's chipset related.

1. friendly advice: You have an Abit board. Leave it at it is! Just put the latest BETA Bios if you want but don't mod it! I have all socket AM2/AM2+ Abit boards and they are great - no need for any modding and unnecessary risks.
2. Nforce4 SLI and Ultra are basically the same chipset - no performance advantage whatsoever!
3. That board and every other nforce4 board for socket AM2 do not accept Phenoms - at least the Abit mobos don't!
4. the best processor you can put is Athlon 64 X2 6000 ADA6000IAA6CZ which has a Windsor core, a 89w TDP and crucially 2*1mb Level 2 cache. Don't go for Brisbane or any other CPU with 2*512kb level 2 cache. You can overclock you processor if you want to reach higher clocks but you can never put some cache in it! It is pointless to go for the Athlon 64 X2 6400 because of the 125w TDP.
5. Memory issue is explained very good here: https://www.anandtech.com/show/2012/10 . Basically an Athlon 64 x2 6000 which has a frequency of 3000 MHz which is derived form the base clock of 200 multiplied by 15 (this is the multiplier of this particular CPU) = 3000 MHz. 3000 divided by 8 = 375 MHz which results in DDR2 - 750 being what it is actually used.
Hope this helps!

[/quote]
P.S. About the mentioned problem for the non-integer CPU multiplier values: I think it's chipset related.
[/quote]
No, it is not chipset related, it is CPU related.

nd22 wrote on 2023-10-05, 05:36:

1. friendly advice: You have an Abit board. Leave it at it is! Just put the latest BETA Bios if you want but don't mod it! I hav […]
Show full quote

1. friendly advice: You have an Abit board. Leave it at it is! Just put the latest BETA Bios if you want but don't mod it! I have all socket AM2/AM2+ Abit boards and they are great - no need for any modding and unnecessary risks.
2. Nforce4 SLI and Ultra are basically the same chipset - no performance advantage whatsoever!
3. That board and every other nforce board for socket AM2 do not accept Phenoms - at least the Abit mobos don't!
4. the best processor you can put is Athlon 64 X2 6000 ADA6000IAA6CZ which has a Windsor core, a 89w TDP and crucially 2*1mb Level 2 cache. Don't go for Brisbane or any other CPU with 2*512kb level 2 cache. You can overclock you processor if you want to reach higher clocks but you can never put some cache in it! It is pointless to go for the Athlon 64 X2 6400 because of the 125w TDP.
5. Memory issue is explained very good here: https://www.anandtech.com/show/2012/10 . Basically an Athlon 64 x2 6000 which has a frequency of 3000 MHz which is derived form the base clock of 200 multiplied by 15 (this is the multiplier of this particular CPU) = 3000 MHz. 3000 divided by 8 = 375 MHz which results in DDR2 - 750 being what it is actually used.
Hope this helps!

Ok, everything you wrote is reasonable. But, there's always a "but" 😀

I don't think that some unlocked useful options in the BIOS will break anything.

As for the CPU - there're not a plenty of these Athlons 64 X2 on the second hand/online/flea market here. Most of the online ads are for Athlons with Brisbane cores. And I absolutely know that Windsor F3 with 2x1 MB cache will be best, but we're not in year 2007.

I know about Phenom's incompatibility with this old chipset even if it's adapted for AM2 platform and it was not my idea (see older comments).

I just realized, that HTT is not mistakenly named in this calculator for FSB and there is also HTT multiplier which can be reduced to adjust actual hypertransport frewuency and RAM frequency rely on all of this. That's why overclocking by trial-error was PITA for this CPUs.

Thanks for your comments!

nd22 wrote on 2023-10-05, 05:39:

analog_programmer wrote on 2023-10-05, 05:14:

P.S. About the mentioned problem for the non-integer CPU multiplier values: I think it's chipset related.

No, it is not chipset related, it is CPU related.

Because...???

I see no problem to reduce CPU multi to integer in BIOS if needed. If there's a problem it will be more of a HTT-HT multi-RAM div problem.

Depending on where you live you might have the perfect option: https://www.ebay.com/itm/113737803569?epid=19 … ABk9SR_iz2ebfYg
I bought 2 many years ago for roughly 40 euros including shipping. I am not trying to advertise here!

nd22 wrote on 2023-10-05, 06:01:

Depending on where you live you might have the perfect option: https://www.ebay.com/itm/113737803569?epid=19 … ABk9SR_iz2ebfYg
I bought 2 many years ago for roughly 40 euros including shipping. I am not trying to advertise here!

Still I dwell in the sh**iest eu-hole 🙁 And EUR25 for such not so old CPU without shipping included - no thanks! I think I can barely take this money if I sell my thrusty Phenom II X6 which I still use as a desktop daily driver 😁

Thanks for the link. CZs were soldered, so no delidding needed.

Thanks to everyone who commented for the tips! I appreciate it. You made me recall some of the features of these Athlon processors with Windsor or Brisbane cores. Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately) the Brisbane 5400+ ADO5400IAA5DO (G2) was gone when I finally decided to buy it. But I found another candidate for about EUR6:

Athlon 64 X2 5600+, Windsor core (90 nm), ADA5600IAA6CZ (F3): 2800 MHz, 14x, 2x1024 kB cache, 1.30-1.35 V (89 W).

I think it will be good enough for o'c tryout having a multi of 14 and it's Windsor F3 stepping. The other option left is Brisbane 5600+ ADO5600IAA5DO (G2), x14.5, as Windsor 6000+ ADA6000IAA6CZ (F3) is way beyond the reasonable price for such a not-so-old hardware and the slightly cheaper ADX6000IAA6CZ (F3) by default is a "space heater" (125 W) 😁

The final "battle":
#4 Athlon 64 X2 5600+, Brisbane core (65 nm), ADO5600IAA5DO (G2): 2900 MHz, 14.5x, 2x512 kB cache, 1.325-1.375 V (65 W) (possible problems with RAM dividers)
VS
#5 Athlon 64 X2 5600+, Windsor core (90 nm), ADA5600IAA6CZ (F3): 2800 MHz, 14x, 2x1024 kB cache, 1.30-1.35 V (89 W)

I think I'm leaning more towards the one with the Windsor core, but I'm concerned about its the higher TDP and how much potential for o'c-ing it has left.