darry wrote on 2023-10-30, 16:00:

songoffall wrote on 2023-10-30, 12:21:

dionb wrote on 2023-10-30, 07:49:

It's not rare. It's a new 'Chinese' card made incredibly cheaply with overstock old chips. Similar cards are churned out in massive numbers with various old chips on them, frequently relabeled too (i.e. with something written on the chips that does not correspond to the actual chip itself). You can pick them up on eBay and Aliexpress.

Can't say I've seen this exact one before but the concept is ubiquitous. At least that chip looks like it could actually be a Yamaha PCI chip...

But you're spot on about the origin of the card, I just searched Aliexpress and came across the same card, but with an ESS chip:

https://aliexpress.com/item/1005005987920346. … .3a704aa6KW9Ici

An ESS chip in the photos, a C-Media one in the description. 😉

And you might end up with a Realtek when you receive it, I assume 😀)

songoffall wrote on 2023-10-30, 07:11:

At this point I'm tempted to send this card to Phil's Computer Lab or Clint at LGR and have it properly tested and examined 😀) I don't think my experience and setup will do it justice, especially if it's really a rare card.

With all due respect to Clint and Phil, they don't have the expertise, or equipment, to authenticate silicon as legit or not.

kingcake wrote on 2023-10-31, 02:10:

songoffall wrote on 2023-10-30, 07:11:

At this point I'm tempted to send this card to Phil's Computer Lab or Clint at LGR and have it properly tested and examined 😀) I don't think my experience and setup will do it justice, especially if it's really a rare card.

With all due respect to Clint and Phil, they don't have the expertise, or equipment, to authenticate silicon as legit or not.

This topic
Yamaha YMF7x4 Guide
Has identification tips in section "1.9. Fake "Yamahas""

gerwin wrote on 2023-10-31, 02:14:

This topic Yamaha YMF7x4 Guide Has identification tips in section "1.9. Fake "Yamahas"" […]
Show full quote

kingcake wrote on 2023-10-31, 02:10:

songoffall wrote on 2023-10-30, 07:11:

At this point I'm tempted to send this card to Phil's Computer Lab or Clint at LGR and have it properly tested and examined 😀) I don't think my experience and setup will do it justice, especially if it's really a rare card.

With all due respect to Clint and Phil, they don't have the expertise, or equipment, to authenticate silicon as legit or not.

This topic
Yamaha YMF7x4 Guide
Has identification tips in section "1.9. Fake "Yamahas""

I'm talking about x-ray analysis. Real methods.

kingcake wrote on 2023-10-31, 02:17:

gerwin wrote on 2023-10-31, 02:14:

This topic Yamaha YMF7x4 Guide Has identification tips in section "1.9. Fake "Yamahas"" […]
Show full quote

kingcake wrote on 2023-10-31, 02:10:

With all due respect to Clint and Phil, they don't have the expertise, or equipment, to authenticate silicon as legit or not.

This topic
Yamaha YMF7x4 Guide
Has identification tips in section "1.9. Fake "Yamahas""

I'm talking about x-ray analysis. Real methods.

Is there reason to believe the counterfeiters actually cloned the hardware functionality to that degree, that original Yamaha YMF drivers would work with it? And then they did that again with an ESS chip?

Such was done with the OPL3, but a chip like YMF744 is much more complicated. Though maybe not as complicated as the YMF724 with its midi hardware.

songoffall wrote on 2023-10-30, 03:27:

The Yamaha codec is detected in Windows. I tested OPL3 in DOS only. Guess I have to run some more tests.

Yeah that is strange.

gerwin wrote on 2023-10-31, 02:36:

Is there reason to believe the counterfeiters actually cloned the hardware functionality to that degree, that original Yamaha YM […]
Show full quote

kingcake wrote on 2023-10-31, 02:17:

gerwin wrote on 2023-10-31, 02:14:

This topic
Yamaha YMF7x4 Guide
Has identification tips in section "1.9. Fake "Yamahas""

I'm talking about x-ray analysis. Real methods.

Is there reason to believe the counterfeiters actually cloned the hardware functionality to that degree, that original Yamaha YMF drivers would work with it? And then they did that again with an ESS chip?

Such was done with the OPL3, but a chip like YMF744 is much more complicated. Though maybe not as complicated as the YMF724 with its midi hardware.

songoffall wrote on 2023-10-30, 03:27:

The Yamaha codec is detected in Windows. I tested OPL3 in DOS only. Guess I have to run some more tests.

Yeah that is strange.

Nah, they just print YMF744 on a C-Media chip. No actual chip cloning takes place. Apparently they have a universal PCB that they solder new old stock chips to, and sometimes the chips are labelled as something they are not.

songoffall wrote on 2023-10-31, 04:09:

gerwin wrote on 2023-10-31, 02:36:

Is there reason to believe the counterfeiters actually cloned the hardware functionality to that degree, that original Yamaha YM […]
Show full quote

kingcake wrote on 2023-10-31, 02:17:

I'm talking about x-ray analysis. Real methods.

Is there reason to believe the counterfeiters actually cloned the hardware functionality to that degree, that original Yamaha YMF drivers would work with it? And then they did that again with an ESS chip?

Such was done with the OPL3, but a chip like YMF744 is much more complicated. Though maybe not as complicated as the YMF724 with its midi hardware.

songoffall wrote on 2023-10-30, 03:27:

The Yamaha codec is detected in Windows. I tested OPL3 in DOS only. Guess I have to run some more tests.

Yeah that is strange.

Nah, they just print YMF744 on a C-Media chip. No actual chip cloning takes place. Apparently they have a universal PCB that they solder new old stock chips to, and sometimes the chips are labelled as something they are not.

Right. That's what I heard as well. Here are some pics I've found to illustrate
C-Media card. No codec chip

Fake Yamaha. No codec chip

Actual Yamaha card, very similar to yours, with a standalone codec

I found a bunch of the latter card for sale somewhere in Russia for usd 5 each. So yeah, not a rarity for sure.

kingcake wrote on 2023-10-31, 02:10:

songoffall wrote on 2023-10-30, 07:11:

At this point I'm tempted to send this card to Phil's Computer Lab or Clint at LGR and have it properly tested and examined 😀) I don't think my experience and setup will do it justice, especially if it's really a rare card.

With all due respect to Clint and Phil, they don't have the expertise, or equipment, to authenticate silicon as legit or not.

I think that question is already answered. It is legit. It passes the duck test. But how it sounds in comparison to other FM cards - that I cannot do, especially when my only two FM cards are this one and an ESS AudioDrive. I have never owned an AdLib or SB16 card - my first computer was a 486 Compaq laptop with no sound. So both FM and GS were something other people with cooler setups had. I also have a CX4235, but it's not a good FM card by any measure.

Phil and Clint, in comparison, have quite large collections of sound cards and experience with how those are supposed to sound.

Bondi wrote on 2023-10-31, 10:19:

Right. That's what I heard as well. Here are some pics I've found to illustrate C-Media card. No codec chip CM.jpg Fake Yamaha. […]
Show full quote

songoffall wrote on 2023-10-31, 04:09:

gerwin wrote on 2023-10-31, 02:36:

Is there reason to believe the counterfeiters actually cloned the hardware functionality to that degree, that original Yamaha YMF drivers would work with it? And then they did that again with an ESS chip?

Such was done with the OPL3, but a chip like YMF744 is much more complicated. Though maybe not as complicated as the YMF724 with its midi hardware.

Yeah that is strange.

Nah, they just print YMF744 on a C-Media chip. No actual chip cloning takes place. Apparently they have a universal PCB that they solder new old stock chips to, and sometimes the chips are labelled as something they are not.

Right. That's what I heard as well. Here are some pics I've found to illustrate
C-Media card. No codec chip
CM.jpg
Fake Yamaha. No codec chip
ymf744_fake.jpg
Actual Yamaha card, very similar to yours, with a standalone codec
YMF744.png

I found a bunch of the latter card for sale somewhere in Russia for usd 5 each. So yeah, not a rarity for sure.

Well, if it turns out to be a good MSDOS card, I won't care if it's rare or not 😀)