I bought another PII laptop with WinME installed, it has a ESS sound card and the WinME driver works good with legacy DOS-box support, I tried Prince of Persia and it works well compared with other win98 laptops with YMF754 or CS4624. Those two laptops have sound card & driver with legacy DOS-box support but Prince of Persia crash on playing first sound. I don't know if it's WinME or ESS card/driver but it works really good.

Best ever version for me and my Dell GX1 workstation in early 2000's
Stable as rock with my Matrox Mystique 4Mb PCI Rainbow Runner Edition for video capture/edit, plays DVD MPEG2 content thru Hollywood+ DVD-decoder, nice compatibility TV ATI TV Wonder.

Giving this a go on my Nforce2 system for obvious reasons. I have only had 2 big issues so far, neither game breaking and only one fault of my own.

ME setup installs a "Crystal Soundfusion" driver for my Turtle Beach Santa Cruz, which causes a blue screen with a vnetbios.vxd (I don't recall exactly) before the setup is complete. Took me forever to figure it out. Windows 98 does not do this as it doesn't have a clue what the sound card is at setup. I didn't catch this when I first loaded ME because I had an Audigy 2ZS installed. After I broke ME with the next issue I will describe, I went to reinstall with the Santa Cruz (love the slim drivers) and got this blue screen over and over. I first assumed it was related to the Nvidia ethernet, because of the name of the file in error. That didn't make sense though as I had it enabled when I installed ME the first time. Disabling the NIC also didn't fix it. I removed the Santa Cruz until Windows was fully setup, then I installed the card and rebooted. I canceled any prompts for driver install, then installed the proper driver from Turtle Beach. Good to go now.

The second problem is most likely my fault. I believe I may have inadvertently installed an Active Directory update intended for Windows 98, which broke the file sharing tab on folders. This lead me to reinstall ME, which caused me to spend hours in the Crystal audio nightmare.

On a positive spin, it runs MUCH better overall on my Nforce2 system than 98. ME doesn't complain about being setup with 1gb of RAM installed (I haven't tried 2gb during setup). I also don't get the issue with too fast of shutdown causing scandisk to trigger which is a major pet peeve of mine. I'd highly recommend it for any late 9x system that's overbuilt and not going to run native DOS due to sound issues or whatever. It doesn't hurt that I love the icon artwork of 2000/ME; they are my favorite icon sets of all Windows. I ran 2000 back in the day for as long as I could and ME is giving me a similar vibe now.

F2bnp wrote on 2016-05-27, 01:23:

-Ali Aladdin V boards have an interesting bug with nUSB and 98SE. Specifically, if you boot your system with a USB flash drive plugged in, the system automatically assigns Drive Letter D: to the flash drive, usually giving your optical drive the Drive Letter E: or whichever is available. So, you either have to avoid it or go and change the drive letters through the Device Manager, which requires a reboot.

That's not a bug of the board, that's how ALL win9x/Me and DOS versions work.

As soon as you insert another hard drive with additional partitions into the computer, the optical drives move one letter further if they previously came directly after the last partition.
This then led to many retail games no longer finding their CD-ROMs.

But there was a very simple solution to get around this problem. Once Windows 9x/Me was freshly installed, you simply had to manually assign a letter to the optical drives, which comes much further back in the alphabet. Only then did you install all the games.
I therefore always set my CD-ROM drive to X: and my CD burner to W:
If I then bought and connected an additional hard drive, which then perhaps had partitions E: and F:, there was no problem with the games because they looked for the CD-ROM on X:.

As far as I can remember, this problem no longer existed with the Windows NT series. Because here the type of device, hard drive vs. CD-ROM, does not determine the order in which the letter is assigned. So you could also give a hard drive a drive letter after the optical drive.

As far as the thread topic is concerned, I used Windows Millenium for many years. I switched to Windows XP in 2005 when I wanted to play Battlefield 2.
If you didn't need the DOS Real Mode, then it was a perfectly usable Win9x OS that received more bug fixes than its predecessors.
However, you should not use old VxD drivers with WinME. Windows Millennium clearly preferred the newer WDM drivers. And if you followed that, WinME ran relatively stable for a Win9X.

What was also better about WinMe than its predecessors was that it could unzip ZIP files out of the box. You didn't have to install any 3rd party software to do that.
Another advantage was the installer. There was something better about the graphics mode setting. Unfortunately I can't remember what it was exactly. Maybe using VESA at a higher resolution with more colors by default?

Exploit wrote on 2024-05-06, 17:41:

Another advantage was the installer. There was something better about the graphics mode setting. Unfortunately I can't remember what it was exactly. Maybe using VESA at a higher resolution with more colors by default?

That'd be the second stage after the first reboot where the detected graphics driver would be used. If it's a video card without a driver by this point, you won't get colors/intro video

mattrock1988 wrote on 2016-04-07, 09:42:

Dunno if I'm in a terribly tiny minority here on this site, but I really like Windows Me, despite the funny aura that surrounded […]
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Dunno if I'm in a terribly tiny minority here on this site, but I really like Windows Me, despite the funny aura that surrounded the OS for most of its life.

For the heck of it, I wiped my Windows 98SE drive, created two partitions for dual booting with PC-DOS 2000 (since Me doesn't have Real-mode DOS you can natively dump to), then installed Windows Me.

Aside from a *single* instance where I got the dreaded KERNEL32.DLL unhandled exception error, I haven't suffered any major crashes or slowdowns. In fact, Windows Me runs so well on my current rig, that it honestly beat my previous 98SE install, both in terms of stability and overall speed. Thus, I decided to keep the OS installed for the foreseeable future.

Does anyone else share my perspective? I'm also interested to see opposite opinions as well, so don't be shy. 😀

pretty late to this discussion but i have never had any issues with me.

Back in 2000 were there actually many users who wanted, cared about or even know what native DOS mode was?

leileilol wrote on 2024-05-07, 00:47:

Exploit wrote on 2024-05-06, 17:41:

Another advantage was the installer. There was something better about the graphics mode setting. Unfortunately I can't remember what it was exactly. Maybe using VESA at a higher resolution with more colors by default?

That'd be the second stage after the first reboot where the detected graphics driver would be used. If it's a video card without a driver by this point, you won't get colors/intro video

I'm not so sure whether it was the second stage. This was more than just a question about missing graphics drivers. It had something to do with usability.
I would have to install WinME in a VM and test it and compare it with Win9x if necessary. Then I could say exactly what the difference was.
But I definitely won't be able to do that any time soon and I don't feel like it either.

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2024-05-19, 22:57:

Back in 2000 were there actually many users who wanted, cared about or even know what native DOS mode was?

Those who came from the DOS era and still used MS-DOS 3.x, 5.0 and 6.x certainly knew it.
I would include myself in this, for example. But that is not the point.
It was more the case that real DOS was no longer that important to us.
For example, I switched to Windows 9x very late because I didn't have a suitable computer. And when I got the new computer on which Windows 9x made sense, I had played my old DOS games so often on my old machine that there was simply no interest in playing them again at that time.
And if I had wanted to, I would have known how, with a boot disk or by just using the old machine.
What interested me were all the new games that were coming out on Windows and using the features of the new 3D accelerators. And because Windows 2000 ended in a blue screen for me after my first test installation due to the graphics drivers, and the compatibility with Win9x games was nowhere near as good as later with a bunch of service packs and W2k patches for several Win9x games, I decided for Windows Me, precisely because that brought the best compatibility for Win9x games, with all the bug fixes and benefits of a modern Win9x version.
The gaming industry was also just getting started to develop games for the WinNT line with the release of WinXP.
Windows 2000 and the other Windows NT versions were viewed by the gaming industry as an OS for business, not for gamers. So the market was seen in Win9x/Me.
And Microsoft itself announced early on that only the NT line version after Windows 2000 would be the OS that was also intended for the home market. This was WinXP.

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2024-05-19, 22:57:

Back in 2000 were there actually many users who wanted, cared about or even know what native DOS mode was?

Indeed more then you would think.
You have to remember that computers were still very expensive while at the same time became obsolete much quicker.
Many people either didn't want or couldn't afford to keep up to date. Our school was still running 486's with Windows 3.11 in 98 when I graduated for example.

I knew of a few people that still had socket 7 era PC's when Windows ME was out. You still had enough performance in 9x for internet, MS Office, etc but drop back to dos for gaming.

Plus you tended to play games longer, so dropping back to play Duke3d which may not find your soundcard in windows or run into the issue of accidently hitting the windows key bringing you back to the desktop and crashing you game.

The (year) 2000 US had a big ushering in entry level computers (ram-starved p3 celerons etc) and DOS was very much dead in the mainstream by that point. It's all about the internet, getting on the internet, internet, also the internet

I think most people moved away from DOS once they got Windows 95. Unless they specifically needed to use it. Win95 obviously began a big change in what users expected and brought in many more users to PCs.

Indeed after Win95 was released, the need to drop out of Windows to DOS diminished quite quickly. The DOS inside Windows was highly compatible and flexible, better compared to Win3.1. There were few applications that could not run. So pure DOS really became infrequently used as time went on. By the time WinME came around, the only issue is they removed the drop down to DOS. But the same DOS in Windows was still there. And even then you can restore DOS support in a couple of ways. So WinME was really just misunderstood, partly due to bad press, not really anything wrong with it at the time. WinME really could have served its purpose, but I feel like MS killed it on purpose. I still think of WinME as a DOS capable system, unlike WinXP, as they broke compatibility to DOS inside Windows, and NTFS formatting made it harder to go between Windows and DOS. WinME was deployed with FAT32 (actually uncrippled compared to WinXP), which can be used in DOS. So it really supported and was built on DOS, unlike what MS wanted you to believe.

the3dfxdude wrote on 2024-05-20, 16:34:

WinME really could have served its purpose, but I feel like MS killed it on purpose.

That's how I see it too. I think this was done to prevent Windows XP from getting a bad reputation because it no longer had a proper DOS mode. By passing the buck to Windows Millennium and making it clear once and for all that only Windows applies, Windows XP received no criticism for it.

If Windows Millennium had been left out. Then there would certainly have been many users who switched from Windows 95 and 98 directly to Windows XP and then criticized and asked why DOS mode was missing. Those would also have been the ones who didn't know what the Windows NT line was exactly.

From that perspective, it was a smart move. Nevertheless, it would have been great if Microsoft had simply introduced real DOS mode to Windows Millennium with a service pack many years later.

Exploit wrote on 2024-05-21, 07:48:

If Windows Millennium had been left out. Then there would certainly have been many users who switched from Windows 95 and 98 directly to Windows XP and then criticized and asked why DOS mode was missing. Those would also have been the ones who didn't know what the Windows NT line was exactly.

From that perspective, it was a smart move. Nevertheless, it would have been great if Microsoft had simply introduced real DOS mode to Windows Millennium with a service pack many years later.

While I agree with you, Microsoft had been trying to kill DOS since DOS 6 was released. It was the last version of DOS they said, and DOS was dead. So most everyone knew it was going away, but obviously it wasn't clear to anyone how they were finally going to do it. Win95 obviously needed to have the upgrade path. Win98, hardly anything changed with respect to DOS -- probably only kept again since they had to, and the only things adjusted was to keep the Windows install working. And WinME, nothing really changed, and really was less dependent on pure DOS anywhere, although we know you can bring back almost 100% pure DOS through hacks. So we all knew, and the average person probably had been planning it or forgotten it. But yeah they probably were smart to trash WinME as the worst ever to ensure WinXP's flaws were minor in comparison, considering how bad things were in it.

chinny22 wrote on 2024-05-20, 01:25:

Indeed more then you would think. You have to remember that computers were still very expensive while at the same time became ob […]
Show full quote

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2024-05-19, 22:57:

Back in 2000 were there actually many users who wanted, cared about or even know what native DOS mode was?

Indeed more then you would think.
You have to remember that computers were still very expensive while at the same time became obsolete much quicker.
Many people either didn't want or couldn't afford to keep up to date. Our school was still running 486's with Windows 3.11 in 98 when I graduated for example.

I knew of a few people that still had socket 7 era PC's when Windows ME was out. You still had enough performance in 9x for internet, MS Office, etc but drop back to dos for gaming.

Plus you tended to play games longer, so dropping back to play Duke3d which may not find your soundcard in windows or run into the issue of accidently hitting the windows key bringing you back to the desktop and crashing you game.

around 2000 i definitely fit that description, i had win 98se then on a P166mmx and played a variety of dos games and a few windows ones. it was fine for that but not ideal for ME

leileilol wrote on 2024-05-20, 01:46:

The (year) 2000 US had a big ushering in entry level computers (ram-starved p3 celerons etc) and DOS was very much dead in the mainstream by that point. It's all about the internet, getting on the internet, internet, also the internet

but this is also true, the marketing perspective was all internet and from a windows reputation perspective the added "we made it stable" was worth something, enough to launch as a bridge to XP

i'd use ME as an experience, but there seems little point now other than for interest

chinny22 wrote on 2024-05-20, 01:25:

Indeed more then you would think. You have to remember that computers were still very expensive while at the same time became ob […]
Show full quote

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2024-05-19, 22:57:

Back in 2000 were there actually many users who wanted, cared about or even know what native DOS mode was?

Indeed more then you would think.
You have to remember that computers were still very expensive while at the same time became obsolete much quicker.
Many people either didn't want or couldn't afford to keep up to date. Our school was still running 486's with Windows 3.11 in 98 when I graduated for example.

I knew of a few people that still had socket 7 era PC's when Windows ME was out. You still had enough performance in 9x for internet, MS Office, etc but drop back to dos for gaming.

Plus you tended to play games longer, so dropping back to play Duke3d which may not find your soundcard in windows or run into the issue of accidently hitting the windows key bringing you back to the desktop and crashing you game.

Not among the customer base that was likely for a WinME system.

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2024-05-19, 22:57:

Back in 2000 were there actually many users who wanted, cared about or even know what native DOS mode was?

Yes.
Think of everything in computing as a mostly interchangeable module on a continuum.

So you get a new pc with a new OS.
Do you suddenly stop wanting your existing games/software?

No. The proof is right there in the link in my sig.
At least a couple hundred people want a game from 1995 to work today. (There have been a few versions so the download doesn't show them all.)

Before that installer, most people used dosbox, emulation with an old Windows, or real hardware.

Business's don't just throw out old software either.
There are still critical systems running ancient software.

So yes, many of us still had an interest in dos back then. Many of us dual booted. Many preferred 98 because it still had dos.

MEs popularity has risen more recently because WDM drivers were released later than VXDs meaning that ME can run on hardware 98 won't. It also got various enthusiast patches restoring the bridge to dos.

So a patched up ME is the broadest hardware and software compatible retro platform as of today.

It bridges the early 80s software to mid-late 00s hardware.

Anything past that point any modern pc can do.
So far.
It's possible that one Intel goes pure x64, AMD follows, and Microsoft eventually kills x32 compatibility in the same way x16 has been.

It's possible your current hardware and w10/11 are eventually perceived as the best hardware/software bridge for the late x32 era.

myne wrote on Yesterday, 03:29:

Yes. Think of everything in computing as a mostly interchangeable module on a continuum. […]
Show full quote

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2024-05-19, 22:57:

Back in 2000 were there actually many users who wanted, cared about or even know what native DOS mode was?

Yes.
Think of everything in computing as a mostly interchangeable module on a continuum.

So you get a new pc with a new OS.
Do you suddenly stop wanting your existing games/software?

No. The proof is right there in the link in my sig.
At least a couple hundred people want a game from 1995 to work today. (There have been a few versions so the download doesn't show them all.)

Before that installer, most people used dosbox, emulation with an old Windows, or real hardware.

Business's don't just throw out old software either.
There are still critical systems running ancient software.

So yes, many of us still had an interest in dos back then. Many of us dual booted. Many preferred 98 because it still had dos.

MEs popularity has risen more recently because WDM drivers were released later than VXDs meaning that ME can run on hardware 98 won't. It also got various enthusiast patches restoring the bridge to dos.

So a patched up ME is the broadest hardware and software compatible retro platform as of today.

It bridges the early 80s software to mid-late 00s hardware.

Anything past that point any modern pc can do.
So far.
It's possible that one Intel goes pure x64, AMD follows, and Microsoft eventually kills x32 compatibility in the same way x16 has been.

It's possible your current hardware and w10/11 are eventually perceived as the best hardware/software bridge for the late x32 era.

Youre making several key ass umptions there.

You dont suddenly stop wanting your old software but that ass umes the person already has a computer.
Dont forget Windows 95, was only 4 years old at the point ME was released. Computers might go out of date quickly but earning money takes time 😉

People wanting to play an old game now is absolutely no indication of what people were doing back then.
Do you really think all those people who download a game installer now are reliving their past? Or do you think maybe there are a lot of new users in there too?

Business use.
They didnt throw out old software, many of them didnt throw out the old hardware that was running the software.
I know beyond a single doubt that many businesses who used Inital CityLink courier service used Windows 98 computers well into the 2000s because the booking software told the business Win98 was the best OS to use, and they had named printers etc etc.

If you needed DOS then use DOS. Businesses dont care if you can or cant quick switch into your games.

Youre trying to conflate two different use cases into the same argument.

Windows ME wasnt popular for many reasons, mostly because it was seen as a "limited edition" for the millennium, there was a lot of that about believe it or not, it wasnt just M$ who cashed in on it.
If you werent looking to buy a PC in those few months it was on sale then that was the end of Windows ME for you. And yes it was months not years it was on sale because it was a limited edition.

ME was seen as the first step into the new age of computers, leaving behind the old way of computers and looking to the future. Real MS DOS support is something we are interested in talking about nearly a quarter of a century later.

ME was released late 2000, XP was released late 2001...
Microsoft already knew where it was heading, the computing community who knew knew where they were heading because we were all talking about it.

ME wasnt popular because it wasnt supposed to be.

ElectroSoldier wrote on Yesterday, 12:14:

Youre making several key ass umptions there.

Classy.

ElectroSoldier wrote on Yesterday, 12:14:

Real MS DOS support is something we are interested in talking about nearly a quarter of a century later..

Dosbox first release: 2002.

Nuff said.