Jo22 wrote on 2023-10-02, 01:14:

That's also something interesting, the fact that GEOS supported memory expansion past 64 KB. Cassettes with 256 KB to 2 MB existed, if I read correctly.
The cool thing is, because bank-switching was done on OS level, users didn't need to implement it, the feature was simply there.

There was an issue of Commodore Format that had a project for the C64, where the cpu was changed to some variation of the 6502, maybe the chip that was used in the Apple IIgs. And bumped the memory up to 256kb. The cpu upgrade was needed, to support the memory upgrade (which was accomplished via bank switching). I may not have every detail right.

So what you're saying is astounding. But maybe what you're saying doesn't apply to the 64. In fact it must not, as there's no way to upgrade a stock 64.

kant explain wrote on 2023-10-02, 02:09:

Jo22 wrote on 2023-10-02, 01:14:

That's also something interesting, the fact that GEOS supported memory expansion past 64 KB. Cassettes with 256 KB to 2 MB existed, if I read correctly.
The cool thing is, because bank-switching was done on OS level, users didn't need to implement it, the feature was simply there.

There was an issue of Commodore Format that had a project for the C64, where the cpu was changed to some variation of the 6502, maybe the chip that was used in the Apple IIgs. And bumped the memory up to 256kb. The cpu upgrade was needed, to support the memory upgrade (which was accomplished via bank switching). I may not have every detail right.

That's really cool to know, thanks for the info !
The Apple IIGS was a really fascinating machine, too.
Somewhere between an Atari ST and a Macintosh.

But at same time had very advanced features, like excellent audio, integrated networking support and good backwards compatibility.

A really underrated little machine with an interesting GEOS-like OS (by the looks) !
It was the brainchild of "the other Steve", who had worked on the Apple I and II, if I understand correctly.

kant explain wrote on 2023-10-02, 02:09:

So what you're saying is astounding. But maybe what you're saying doesn't apply to the 64. In fact it must not, as there's no way to upgrade a stock 64.

Hi there, I admit that the C64 was a bit before my time, even though I grew up with 8-/16-Bit systems when they were still in use. 😅

The memory expansion I meant was a REU type.
Though some other memory cartridges/cassettes existed, too, I believe. Like the Pagefox.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_REU

Edit: GEOS apparently also supported a simpler type of RAM cartridge called "geoRAM".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GeoRAM

Oh my. Am I the doofis. Never knew they existed.

Nah, you're not, don't worry. Personally, I wouldn't have known, either, if it wasn't for GEOS and the casual experiments with the WinVICE emulator.

Edit: Speaking about the passionate nature of the C64 fans, I remember something..
They ported (remade) Sonic 1 (Master System) to the C64. They managed it by using the Commodore REU.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdwRMILUhis

kant explain wrote on 2023-10-02, 02:09:

So what you're saying is astounding. But maybe what you're saying doesn't apply to the 64. In fact it must not, as there's no way to upgrade a stock 64.

There was the SuperCPU cartridge: https://www.c64-wiki.com/wiki/SuperCPU
Gave you a 20 MHz(!) CPU and up to 16 MB of memory.
There were some other, less well known CPU upgrades for the C64 as well.

I want one. I need plans. The real thing will likely cost hundreds.

kant explain wrote on 2023-10-02, 18:20:

I want one. I need plans. The real thing will likely cost hundreds.

Actually, what for? It made sense at that time, when the humble C-64 was „the one and only” computer in one's house. But now? Now you already have a fast computer; the one you used to type these words above.
What was fascinating in this phenomenon, known as C-64, was what can be achieved using its humble resources: 64 KB of RAM and a simplistic 6502 processor running below 1 MHz… some kind of „20 MHz C-64” wouldn't be as challenging.

Max Headroom wrote on 2023-10-03, 12:47:

kant explain wrote on 2023-10-02, 18:20:

I want one. I need plans. The real thing will likely cost hundreds.

Actually, what for? It made sense at that time, when the humble C-64 was „the one and only” computer in one's house. But now? Now you already have a fast computer; the one you used to type these words above.
What was fascinating in this phenomenon, known as C-64, was what can be achieved using its humble resources: 64 KB of RAM and a simplistic 6502 processor running below 1 MHz… some kind of „20 MHz C-64” wouldn't be as challenging.

Well, if you're a C64 fan and own one it definitely makes sense as well as any other add-on or peripheral device you are able to find.

But the question is if C64 is worth to buy at all. It is of course a matter of taste, but if you ask me I will surely not. Although it is without a doubt a milestone machine, but it so poorly designed that I didn't managed to find even a single excuse for buying it. Just look at its color palette, even it looks like some Grade C product. Same true also regarding ZX Spectrum.

I suppose in general any vintage machine is uninteresting unless you either owned it in the past, or have some kind of connection to it (eg you owned a similar machine, or someone you knew had such a machine or whatnot).
Learning how to operate such old devices takes time and is not usually very exciting.

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2023-10-03, 14:26:

Well, if you're a C64 fan and own one it definitely makes sense as well as any other add-on or peripheral device you are able to find.

You mean as a „collectible”? Maybe — but I wouldn't spend much money for that. OK, it's my own opinion.

But the question is if C64 is worth to buy at all. It is of course a matter of taste, but if you ask me I will surely not. Although it is without a doubt a milestone machine, but it so poorly designed that I didn't managed to find even a single excuse for buying it. Just look at its color palette, even it looks like some Grade C product. Same true also regarding ZX Spectrum.

Regarding colour palette — yes, it's rather a matter of taste. I agree C-64's palette isn't ideal — compared to the others its colours may be seen as kinda „washed out” — OTOH Amstrad's palette I've always seen as „oversweeted” (the same with Spectrum). So the one of C-64 maybe not ideal, still closer to reality. But actually I was pondering, why they didn't implement user-selectable palette (keeping that „wired” one just as default), which should be feasible and not that difficult, considering what they managed to achieve.

Scali wrote on 2023-10-03, 14:53:

I suppose in general any vintage machine is uninteresting unless you either owned it in the past, or have some kind of connection to it (eg you owned a similar machine, or someone you knew had such a machine or whatnot).
Learning how to operate such old devices takes time and is not usually very exciting.

Can't agree with you. You don't have to have a nostalgic feelings in order to enjoy playing with a vintage machine. There are many interesting vintage machines. I, for example, have never used such machines like TRS-80 Model 100, Epson HX-20, Sharp PC-1500 or Toshiba Libretto 50. But it is quite exciting, at least for me, to play with them. I find quite interesting to run BASIC programs and to experience cassette data storage systems. I even bought a Paper Tape Punch Read machine because of the same reason.

And if we are talking about C64, for me it is just not interesting. It served well its owners back then, but today it looks, at least in my eyes, as some poorly designed, underpowered device which tried very hard to be a proper computer like IBM PC, Apple or Amiga. Being an 8 bit machine it wasn't good even as a CP/M machine. So in my view it is not old, or primitive, it's just a bad machine. But of course there were many that were even worse than C64. Much worse.

The Apple II set the standard for 8-bit home/personal computers. The C64 tried to be a cheaper, better version of it, as did many competitors. The C64 won that, very convincingly.

Max Headroom wrote on 2023-10-03, 12:47:

kant explain wrote on 2023-10-02, 18:20:

I want one. I need plans. The real thing will likely cost hundreds.

Actually, what for? It made sense at that time, when the humble C-64 was „the one and only” computer in one's house. But now? Now you already have a fast computer; the one you used to type these words above.
What was fascinating in this phenomenon, known as C-64, was what can be achieved using its humble resources: 64 KB of RAM and a simplistic 6502 processor running below 1 MHz… some kind of „20 MHz C-64” wouldn't be as challenging.

Seriously? I'd ask why not? It's a serious upgrade to a seriously nostalgic and fun computer. Why did many utilize a Warpspeed cartridge with ours back when? Ok the firware disk transfer routines sucked but that's besides the point. You wanted it to work faster. Nobody wants to wait. For anything. The one thing that makes messing with old computers so depressing is everything works sooooo sloooooow.

Some people want the whole vintage experiemce. But in my experience the goal was to extract as much performance as possible.

Jo22 wrote on 2023-10-02, 03:33:

Nah, you're not, don't worry. Personally, I wouldn't have known, either, if it wasn't for GEOS and the casual experiments with t […]
Show full quote

Nah, you're not, don't worry. Personally, I wouldn't have known, either, if it wasn't for GEOS and the casual experiments with the WinVICE emulator.

Edit: Speaking about the passionate nature of the C64 fans, I remember something..
They ported (remade) Sonic 1 (Master System) to the C64. They managed it by using the Commodore REU.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdwRMILUhis

My Commodore GEOS Battle Station, Part II: A Love Letter to CMD (Amiga Love´s channel)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkoM42iF8Wg

kant explain wrote on 2023-10-03, 16:46:

... You wanted it to work faster. Nobody wants to wait. For anything. The one thing that makes messing with old computers so depressing is everything works sooooo sloooooow.

Some people want the whole vintage experiemce. But in my experience the goal was to extract as much performance as possible.

They work sooooo sloooooow, because they were put to work with software that was too much for them. Back then it was justified because of a desire of progress. But today who forces you to do this? For example, you don't have to use a cassette tape to load a heavy software and wait half an hour till it will load. If you'll use it for loading small files, it will load them in seconds. Just use the old hardware for adequate purposes and it will fly.

kant explain wrote on 2023-10-03, 16:46:

Seriously? I'd ask why not? It's a serious upgrade to a seriously nostalgic and fun computer. Why did many utilize a Warpspeed cartridge with ours back when?

I already answered that: because at that time we all had that C-64 as the one and only computer, therefore maximizing its efficiency was, shall we say, „natural and obvious”. Yes, during 80s (before I got my first PC) I was completing my C-64 with various add-ons too (Speeddos and various other floppy-speeders etc.). But today?
Today C-64 is just nostalgic and educational toy. If you wonder how it could run being equipped with SuperCPU, you can easily find it out using VICE on your PC. It won't be that much different on the real hardware.

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2023-10-03, 16:58:

They work sooooo sloooooow, because they were put to work with software that was too much for them. Back then it was justified because of a desire of progress. But today who forces you to do this? For example, you don't have to use a cassette tape to load a heavy software and wait half an hour till it will load. If you'll use it for loading small files, it will load them in seconds. Just use the old hardware for adequate purposes and it will fly.

Indeed, if I ever switch my C-64 on — just having „a nostalgic hour” or two — that slow pace is part of the whole „taste”. There's no hurry! I'll wait… for the jobs requiring computing power I've got my PC.

I think you have a bit to learn about vintage collecting or collectors. The hobby has differemt facets, people differ, their interests differ. Things that stir their interests differ. If it really needed to be said. Am I not allowed to find and even express interest in something? The vast majority of discussion that takes place on vogons, particularly devoted to 1995-2005 computers and more specifically gaming on those machines. Yes I know what VOGONS stands for, but it seems there's a lot more interest in hardware lately. A whole lot of tje discussion is of little or no interest to me.

The C64 was not my first computer. If that even matters. What I find interesting about it is my business. I am astounded when people make comparisons between old computers and modern ones. Huh? Or suggest doing something with modern emulators rather then old hardware. People like old hardware. They accumulate as much as they can oftentimes. And whether or not something was a commercial success or not is utterly irrelevant.

But I already wrote, that yes, „if you want it as a collectible” or sth. — didn't I?
If you want to play on fast C-64, however, you may want to buy this instead; I didn't buy it, the pace my C-64 works at satisfies me completely.

Again with suggestions 🤣.

It's out of stock by the way.