It was always weird to imagine a PC loading from a Cassette... even if its possible.
Cassettes felt so old fashioned and slow when Floppys became the norm.

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2023-09-29, 12:01:

But back to the topic ...

Some time ago I was seriously considering buying a Commodore SX-64. It is a Commdore 64, it looks nice, it is portable ... but it has no cassette port and there is no convenient way to add one. What a joke! It could be such a great machine if it had one. And I'd be glad to buy one even though they are quite expensive these days ... But ...

I've had 2. It's not like having a regular C64. I mean it is a real C64 intetnally. But you have that 5" tube. I even has nos replacement tubes, a bunch. Sold them off years ago.

Scali wrote on 2023-09-29, 12:04:

I've never heard of anyone who'd actually WANT tape on a C64. When I got my C64 in 1984, it was common to buy a package with bot […]
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I've never heard of anyone who'd actually WANT tape on a C64.
When I got my C64 in 1984, it was common to buy a package with both the C64 and the datasette bundled.
A disk drive was more expensive than the C64 itself, so in those days, hardly anyone had one.
A few years later, prices came down, so many C64 owners would get one, including myself. I never looked back really. Disk is so much faster and more convenient. Also, a lot of software was only available on disk, including Geos and many of the more advanced games.

My father thinks the same here.
When he had a floppy drive for his Sharp, he never wanted to go back to datasette.
Unfortunately, he had to for using machine-specific programs not available for CP/M.

What's cool about the cassette interface is its use of RTTY - like tones (~1200/2200 Hz pairs).
So by using the cassette interface, Baudot signals can be decoded/encoded in software.
Either by decoding Mark/Space or just one of them (usually Mark, if possible).
Acoustic couplers and Packet Radio in AFSK uses those Bell frequencies, too.

On C64, I'm using the datasette status signals to read pulses coming from a 2211 tone detection IC.
That way, Quick Brown Fox (QBF) can decode RTTY signals and sea weather information aired on shortwave.
Even graphically, with the right memory expansion.

So in some way or another, the cassette interface as such was a nice i/o device, a bit like a soundcard.
That's where the IBM PC cassette interface could have been useful for, as well.
The input line, especially, which was removed on subsequent models. Output is essentially the good old PC Speaker.

Edit: The good thing about the floppy on C64 is also that all FILES (*ahem*) are accessible in any order.
So games can call them any time. The cassette versions can't do that.
All they can do is reading next file, by activating the motor of the datasette deck (if PLAY is still pressed).

DerBaum wrote on 2023-09-29, 14:27:

It was always weird to imagine a PC loading from a Cassette... even if its possible.
Cassettes felt so old fashioned and slow when Floppys became the norm.

It is weird ... And it is cool because it is weird ... As long as you don't have to do it for real job of course.

By the way because of this very reason I purchased for my PCs the GNT 4601 Paper Tape Reader/Punch Station which allows to store and to read data on a paper tape via RS-232 port.

kant explain wrote on 2023-09-29, 14:30:

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2023-09-29, 12:01:

But back to the topic ...

Some time ago I was seriously considering buying a Commodore SX-64. It is a Commdore 64, it looks nice, it is portable ... but it has no cassette port and there is no convenient way to add one. What a joke! It could be such a great machine if it had one. And I'd be glad to buy one even though they are quite expensive these days ... But ...

I've had 2. It's not like having a regular C64. I mean it is a real C64 intetnally. But you have that 5" tube. I even has nos replacement tubes, a bunch. Sold them off years ago.

Well, it has external monitor connection, so you always can use it with it instead of killing your vision with this little funny CRT. Also, you always can replace a CRT with LCD.

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2023-09-29, 14:49:

kant explain wrote on 2023-09-29, 14:30:

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2023-09-29, 12:01:

But back to the topic ...

Some time ago I was seriously considering buying a Commodore SX-64. It is a Commdore 64, it looks nice, it is portable ... but it has no cassette port and there is no convenient way to add one. What a joke! It could be such a great machine if it had one. And I'd be glad to buy one even though they are quite expensive these days ... But ...

I've had 2. It's not like having a regular C64. I mean it is a real C64 intetnally. But you have that 5" tube. I even has nos replacement tubes, a bunch. Sold them off years ago.

Well, it has external monitor connection, so you always can use it with it instead of killing your vision with this little funny CRT. Also, you always can replace a CRT with LCD.

The tiny colour screen.. The SX-64 had an interesting attribute here, btw.
The colour scheme of the C64 BASIC/KERNAL was changed to blue foreground on white/gray background, for better readability.
Too bad they didn't use the Amiga colours instead, they were pretty, too.

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2023-09-29, 14:49:

Also, you always can replace a CRT with LCD.

Clarity wouldn't likely be an issue as smaller crts have sharper details. The size.of the tube or lcd is an issue. They did studies back in the 80s and it was determined that eye strain - having to focus on a condensed image was a detriment to productivity. The companies who listened and could afford big (19" and larger) monitors acquired them. Your eyeballs get tired when pulled together for extended periods. 9" or smaller was just unheard of. 12" anand 13" was the minimum.

Still the SX-64 was a bit of a marvel, and you had the portability if you needed it. Not sure which color portable actually made it to market first. Some say the Commie shipped earliest. But iinm the TI Portable Professional (available in color and monochrome) was announced first.

kant explain wrote on 2023-09-29, 22:10:

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2023-09-29, 14:49:

Also, you always can replace a CRT with LCD.

Clarity wouldn't likely be an issue as smaller crts have sharper details...

I'm afraid it actually would. Monochrome and Color CRTs are not the same in terms of clarity.

But again the smaller the crt the sharper the image. That's been my experience (and I've many many monitors of all sizes). We weren't talking about mono or color but size. Now there is nothing as sharp as say a black and white monitor, even one that's worn to hell. And I mean big ones. There's 1 gun. There never is a divergence error. But it's a seperate issue.

The Atari mono monitors, though kimd of nice, aren't as good as 19"+ Mac and other monitors used for graphical design. I can' t even remember the make, but I got a Mac II + 19" mono for a song and dance. The monitor was significant screen burn. But was still as sharp as a tack.

kant explain wrote on 2023-09-29, 23:32:

But again the smaller the crt the sharper the image. That's been my experience (and I've many many monitors of all sizes). We weren't talking about mono or color but size. Now there is nothing as sharp as say a black and white monitor, even one that's worn to hell. And I mean big ones. There's 1 gun. There never is a divergence error. But it's a seperate issue.

Yes, I think there's some truth within.
If an image is fuzzy, it becomes more clear with an increasing distance.
The phenomenon ispart of the human vision, I believe. Somehow the vision and mind are reconstructing/interpolating information that way.
There's a scientific term for it, I think, though I don't remember it right now.

kant explain wrote on 2023-09-29, 23:32:

The Atari mono monitors, though kimd of nice, aren't as good as 19"+ Mac and other monitors used for graphical design. I can' t even remember the make, but I got a Mac II + 19" mono for a song and dance. The monitor was significant screen burn. But was still as sharp as a tack.

Yes, there used to be high-definition monochrome monitors of that size.
Or rather, grayscale monitors. They had an analogue, VGA-ish input (in terms of timings).

Here's a lust of such monitors, from an Atari ST website.:

https://www.atari-computermuseum.de/st_peri.htm#ttm194

There also were ISA slot adapters for Atari Mega ST, for installation of an ET4000 graphics card.
Drivers for GEM were included with the ISA adapter kit.

Such grayscale monitors had a beautiful picture, even at lower resolutions.
The absence of a screen mask and red/green/blue pixels made the picture much more natural looking.
It was both sharp (as in: fine) and smooth (no hard edges, no aliasing).

I meant convergence error lol

kant explain wrote on 2023-09-30, 00:39:

I meant convergence error 🤣

"[..] As a matter of fact this is a time of convergence for many forms of media [..]" - Yakko (Animaniacs) 1994

kant explain wrote on 2023-09-29, 23:32:

Now there is nothing as sharp as say a black and white monitor, even one that's worn to hell. And I mean big ones. There's 1 gun. There never is a divergence error. But it's a seperate issue.

In the industrial/laboratory arena you often came across 3-gun monochromes that needed alignment, but they were the bee's knees ...made 1 gun VDUs look inept. Even today in the same arena you can get super high definition monochrome LCD displays ... the big CRTs that came with Sun microsystems were a nice 1-gun VDU ... (I say monochrome inferring grayscale)

kant explain wrote on 2023-09-29, 23:32:

But again the smaller the crt the sharper the image. ...

I don't want to argue with you, but it is not. Monochrome CRT monitors (not TVs) are quite sharp both big and small. Big color CRTs - it depends, there are sharp and not so sharp ones, but smaller ones are not sharp at all. Just try to read a small size text on different sizes of color CRTs and you'll see by yourself.

Again in my experience it's the case. Of course there are tubes of varying quality.

Speaking of the C64, was there any useful software being published? In the later years I mean (late 80s).
I don't mean "productivity" software per se, but normal and humble things of daily life, say a a digital telephone book?

I'm asking, because my father had such a phone book program+database in the old drawer in his mansard.
It was from 1989, I believe, containing two 3,5" floppies, one for MS-DOS PCs and one for Macintosh.
None for Amiga, however. Not to say C64..

So I wonder, did the C64 ever got useful programs like that, made by government agencies or city administration?
You know, such informative software, which was been given out for free sometimes?

There was a cook book you could enter your own recipes into. There was probably a lot of average productivity software, the c64 tended to just have a TON of software made for it.

midicollector wrote on 2023-10-01, 08:43:

There was a cook book you could enter your own recipes into. There was probably a lot of average productivity software, the c64 tended to just have a TON of software made for it.

There was a lot of homebrew from bed room programmers, I know.
What I wonder is if there was "official" software being released for C64, with public information by government/country.
Like a route planer, a city tour guide, a virtual first aid course, a catalog about national/regional plants, software used by schools, a ZIP code database etc.
Things like that. Educational or informative programs with a certified database. Or cultural important software, as such.
Like a database about artists/musicians and their works etc.
In the 90s, these things weren't too uncommon to find on Windows 3.x, I believe.

I guess "in the 90s" pretty much covers it: by the time such software was made available, the C64 was no longer relevant.
Having said that, we did use C64s at our school, and there indeed was educational software for it.
One thing I recall is that we used Logo, a graphical programming language on the C64, so kids could get their first taste of programming a computer.
Another thing was an educational topography game, where you had to fly a helicopter over a map. The computer would give you the name of a city and you had to fly to it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rg8tkrt6hjY
This was made by Radarsoft, who made a lot of educational software for popular home computers such as C64, MSX, ZX Spectrum and Atari 8-bit: https://www.mobygames.com/company/14444/radarsoft-bv/
They originally started on Commodore 64 in 1984, but moved to other platforms later.
Another thing I recall was "Tempo Typen", a game where a word appeared on screen, moving towards a laser beam: https://www.mobygames.com/game/144572/tempo-typen/
You had to type in each letter before it reached the beam. So it was a game to practice typing fast.
Their games were also used in a television show called "It's all in the game": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYlMcKf38b0 (Tempo Typen is at about 46 minutes in).

Thanks a lot for the information! I didn't know that yet! 😃👍
Please also ignore my ignorance, the C64 was a bit before my time, I must admit.

Due to my father being more of a business person (had architects as clients), I had contact with Z80 and PC systems, rather.
But to my defense, I at least had a C128D when I was young. I got it used, however (second hand).

It came with GEOS 128 and CP/M software (Superbase comes to mind). It could also run C64 software in C64 compatibility mode, of course. I mostly ran GEOS and The Final Cartridge, I vaguely remember.

I got some magazine cover disks for it, too, later on. Some were aquired from local flea market, which had various vintage stuff.
Datasette software was lesser known to me, if memory serves, due to the absence of a datasette (not built-in into C128D; I got a dedicated C64 years later).

The CP/M aspect was what my father supported when we got the C128D, I think.
It could boot into the latest CP/M Plus (aka CP/M v3)! That must have been new to him, I suppose.
In the CP/M heydays, CP/M v2.2 and MP/M were current. And CP/M 3 had incorporated a few features from MP/M..

Hm. I think I (we) originally got interested in the C128D, because it was a prize mentioned in one of my father's older Mickey Mouse magazines ('84? '85?) at some point.
And it was looking very elegant, as well, like the A1000.

Edit: To build a bridge with the topic, I think that GEOS was an interesting "thing".
There even was a FAX program that could be used to "scan" images by using a telefax devices as a scanner.

If only Commodore had invested more in GEOS, like bundling a special edition with every C64, with lots of GEOS utilities for daily use! Maybe even in module form, for users without 1541 drive.
And maybe adding a little development kit for free.

Because, GEOS applications could run on all 6502/6510 systems alike.
So a C128 user could have been written a program which a C64 user could use, too - if he/she/they had an memory expansion cassette plugged in (REU) and was okay with lower screen resolution.

That's also something interesting, the fact that GEOS supported memory expansion past 64 KB. Cassettes with 256 KB to 2 MB existed, if I read correctly.
The cool thing is, because bank-switching was done on OS level, users didn't need to implement it, the feature was simply there.

Edit: That makes me wonder, why is the C64 fandom not embracing GEOS more often?

Whenever I see nostalgic TV shows or retro themed magazines talking about the C64, I rarely see GEOS being mentioned.

The popular (more or less) Scanntronik products line is missing, too (DTP software, handy scanner hardware, video digitizer).

RTTY decoders like the BONITO or Microlog cartridge are missing, as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZNY1GPZn-s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tqn8kpvpSzE

Weren't the 80s, when the C64 was important, kinda all about CB radio, electronic homebrew and listening to shortwave radio ?
I thought that computer nerds/geeks had an universal interest in these things.

Or what about robot arms? That's an 80s thing, too!
I remember seeing interfaces for Fischertechnik construction kits.

https://homecomputerguy.de/2020/12/27/fischer … robotor-am-c64/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Je2-X5J35Y

I wonder why these things aren't being discussed much more by the C64 community these days. Or the press/media. 🤷‍♂️
I mean, that's the spirit! Much more captivating than playing Frogger.
Or are these C64 guys all secretly playing Samantha Fox's Strip Poker ?! 😉