OK I just tried it on my 233mmx build
- the X2 Software Pack 1.02 works on 98SE (I mean it loads and you can press buttons)
- I enabled the onboard USB1.1 ports on my MVP3 motherboard and installed NUSB 3.6e -> Dreamblaster X2 was detected -> windows wanted to install a USB AUDIO device -> blue screen -> USB AUDIO device ends up with an exclamation mark on Device Manager

Not sure if it's the onboard USB1.1 controller to blame, or the USB AUDIO driver but that's my experience with it. Hope this helps.

Thanks, though I really need to know if flashing the X2 is actually possible on Win98SE. Good to know that the software at least works, but if the driver fails to install, I doubt flashing works. Maybe dreamblaster can answer this.

Well you would still need to remove the X2 from the wavetable connector to do the flashing so once it's out you can just flash it on a newer system.... I totally understand the need to make it all work on 98SE but I just think the driver support isn't good enough.

keropi wrote:

Well you would still need to remove the X2 from the wavetable connector to do the flashing

Why? I have a USB card with in internal USB A connector, so it would be connected all the time.

It makes no sense to me if I have to remove it for flashing. In that case, I would keep the S2 instead.

well I guess dreamblaster will answer that one

yes you normally can connect usb and waveblaster interface at the same time,
there is a diode on the usb 5V, it should avoid trouble.

But generally it is not recommended : the midi commands on both interfaces are sent to the same midi synth.
If you play music to both interfaces at the same time, it will sound strange.
Also when uploading a new bank over usb, don't send midi commands over the waveblaster midi interface, it would make the update fail.
So generally use only one interface at the same time.

if it all will work on your win98 pc, I don't know.
I will pm you, maybe you can try.

The normal usage patterns are :
with a 'modern' pc (win XP or higher) with usb :
- use X2 to play usb midi
- use X2 on USB for flashing banks & presets
- you can flash and test it all over usb. As all settings are persistent in flash, you can use your modern pc to configure the card and then plug it on your retro pc

on a 'retro' DOS pc with a classic soundcard :
- just plug the X2 on your soundcard's waveblaster header or on the db15 connector (using chill n phil), and play
- no need to use any tools over the waveblaster interface

I don't plan to use it for MIDI over USB. USB will be for flashing only.

As all settings are persistent in flash, you can use your modern pc to configure the card and then plug it on your retro pc

Exactly that is not an option for me. I want to be able to change presets at any time and update/swap the soundfont. And that of course without having to remove the card from the retro PC and connect it to a more modern one any time I want to do so. 😉

Ok, I took the risk to kill my Win98SE retro PC and tried. Like keropi, I got a blue screen after connecting the X2 to USB. Had two non-working devices listed in the device manager afterwards. Doesn't work it seems.

ah too bad, it seems we don't have drivers then... I bet the whole framework for that is missing on 98SE because on newer systems all needed drivers are included in the OS.

Actually, Win98 has drivers for USB Audio, it even installs all the required files for MIDI playback etc. But the blue screen in the process causes it not to work. No idea if that's a problem with the way the X2 works, or if it's because of NUSB, which is a rather dirty hack (it implants the WinME USB stack into 98 incl. parts of the shell).

My guesstimate is that both NUSB+stock drivers are just not compatible with the hardware interface - we are not using a specific X2 driver (because it does not exist or needed for modern OSes) but we rely on a 1999 framework to make a 2017 device work. All these USB devices (from mice to controllers to sound) at some point start to follow some interfacing standards and I believe the 98SE stack is just too old to support that.

May I ask a stupid question just to be on the safe side. Is it safe to connect X2 to USB and upload soundbanks while it is connected to a sound card as wavetable header in system that is powered OFF?

If the system is powered off, yes.

Great! Thanks!

derSammler wrote on 2020-03-07, 10:36:

If the system is powered off, yes.

Funny stuff. I use the X2 on my IBM Thinkpad Dock I. So when I pluged in the USB cable into my computer, the fan of the dock started spinning. 😀 The dock was not connected to any power source. I decided not to use it like that. Nothing was damaged actually.

That shouldn't happen. I guess while there is a diode on the USB's 5V line, they forgot one on the wavetable connector..?

derSammler wrote on 2020-03-07, 15:13:

That shouldn't happen. I guess while there is a diode on the USB's 5V line, they forgot one on the wavetable connector..?

Maybe, I'm not sure. Don't think they were supposed to, as noone expected current to come from a daughter board back then.
The sound card is a noname ES1868f based card...

derSammler wrote on 2020-03-07, 15:13:

That shouldn't happen. I guess while there is a diode on the USB's 5V line, they forgot one on the wavetable connector..?

That is correct, on X2, there's a diode on the USB 5V line, but not on wavetable 5V pin on X2 side.
You would expect it on the soundcard, but apparently not.
For X2 design decision : --> The original idea was you could power an arduino shield with X2, completely from USB, and this works nicely :
I was planning to make full arduino based midi module with display and keys and ... powered over usb -- a bit like MB32 idea
But except for my own experiments, I think nobody uses X2 this way.

If both systems are powered, the PC 5V will normally be higher than usb voltage minus diode drop, so no current will flow.
I did this many times without problem. (but both were powered). But when PC is powered off, and usb coming from somewhere else, this is indeed a possible side effect (depending on the soundcard) !
well ... to avoid any issue or strange effect, it is recommended to remove X2 for USB updating.

On the upcoming new batch X2E : X2 Extended (currently have working prototypes, production batch in a few months),
i already added this diode for added safety , and some other minor changes (same capabilities as original X2)
For normal use, X2E will be exactly the same as X2 And if needed for arduino, the diode can be bridged.
Have a look at the X2E photo, you see D1 and D3 : 2 diodes instead of 1.