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Table Fog & 8-bit Paletted Textures

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Reply 381 of 400, by BEEN_Nath_58

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Here's some out of the box knowledge and query. We have seen fog work consistently across hardware. Table/vertex fog support can be checked by using dxview.exe tool in old DX SDKs. It should say NO against the ATI card.

Regarding the 8-bit palettized texture setting I am still trying to figure out what's the correct flag there and I would be happy if soembody happens to know it. I have seen some interesting ones like MODE X and BANKSWITCHING, but they are out of context here.

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Reply 382 of 400, by Joseph_Joestar

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BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2022-11-23, 18:41:

Table/vertex fog support can be checked by using dxview.exe tool in old DX SDKs.

This isn't exactly rare. There are various tools like the System Info page of 3D Mark '99 that can list all detected capabilities of a graphics card:

3DMark99_Sysinfo.jpg
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Everest is another utility from the mid 2000s which can do something similar.

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / OPTi 82C930 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 1700+ / Abit KT7A / Voodoo3 / Audigy1 / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3400+ / Asus K8V-MX / 5900XT / Audigy1
PC#4: i5-3550P / MSI Z77A-G43 / GTX 650Ti / X-Fi

Reply 383 of 400, by BEEN_Nath_58

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Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-11-23, 19:14:
This isn't exactly rare. There are various tools like the System Info page of 3D Mark '99 that can list all detected capabilitie […]
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BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2022-11-23, 18:41:

Table/vertex fog support can be checked by using dxview.exe tool in old DX SDKs.

This isn't exactly rare. There are various tools like the System Info page of 3D Mark '99 that can list all detected capabilities of a graphics card:

3DMark99_Sysinfo.jpg

Everest is another utility from the mid 2000s which can do something similar.

Can you tell how it shows a supported feature of 8-bit palettized textures, like what is the entry in that list?

previously known as Discrete_BOB_058

Reply 384 of 400, by gmaverick2k

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BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2022-11-24, 05:32:
Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-11-23, 19:14:
This isn't exactly rare. There are various tools like the System Info page of 3D Mark '99 that can list all detected capabilitie […]
Show full quote
BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2022-11-23, 18:41:

Table/vertex fog support can be checked by using dxview.exe tool in old DX SDKs.

This isn't exactly rare. There are various tools like the System Info page of 3D Mark '99 that can list all detected capabilities of a graphics card:

3DMark99_Sysinfo.jpg

Everest is another utility from the mid 2000s which can do something similar.

Can you tell how it shows a supported feature of 8-bit palettized textures, like what is the entry in that list?

Table fog

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Reply 385 of 400, by BEEN_Nath_58

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gmaverick2k wrote on 2022-11-24, 06:14:
BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2022-11-24, 05:32:
Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-11-23, 19:14:

This isn't exactly rare. There are various tools like the System Info page of 3D Mark '99 that can list all detected capabilities of a graphics card:

3DMark99_Sysinfo.jpg

Everest is another utility from the mid 2000s which can do something similar.

Can you tell how it shows a supported feature of 8-bit palettized textures, like what is the entry in that list?

Table fog

Why should "8-bit palettized textures" support should be shown with "Table fog" entry? Are you sure about that?

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Reply 386 of 400, by Joseph_Joestar

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BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2022-11-24, 05:32:

Can you tell how it shows a supported feature of 8-bit palettized textures, like what is the entry in that list?

I don't think 3D Mark checks for that.

BTW, the reason why I never used synthetic tests like this for determining whether a graphics card supports table fog and paletted textures was because sometimes the manufacturers would fake support in the drivers, even though the hardware could not actually do it.

For that reason, I always prefer to use retail versions of games (with only the official patches applied) to test for these features. Specifically, Final Fantasy 8 is my test of choice for paletted textures, while either Shadows of the Empire or Thief 2 can be used to test table fog. If you don't see the fog effect render in-game, then the hardware doesn't support it, despite possible driver fakery. Similarly, if the menu in FF8 is washed out, then the hardware doesn't support paletted textures.

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / OPTi 82C930 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 1700+ / Abit KT7A / Voodoo3 / Audigy1 / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3400+ / Asus K8V-MX / 5900XT / Audigy1
PC#4: i5-3550P / MSI Z77A-G43 / GTX 650Ti / X-Fi

Reply 387 of 400, by BEEN_Nath_58

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Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-11-24, 09:19:
BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2022-11-24, 05:32:

Can you tell how it shows a supported feature of 8-bit palettized textures, like what is the entry in that list?

BTW, the reason why I never used synthetic tests like this for determining whether a graphics card supports table fog and paletted textures was because sometimes the manufacturers would fake support in the drivers, even though the hardware could not actually do it.

The inverse is also true, at least for the hardware I am using to write this message. It has FOGTABLE caps as YES and only way to get them is by editing the driver values. So I was wondering if it was possible to quickly find the cap for 8bit palletized tex too.

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Reply 388 of 400, by Joseph_Joestar

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BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2022-11-24, 13:21:

The inverse is also true, at least for the hardware I am using to write this message. It has FOGTABLE caps as YES and only way to get them is by editing the driver values. So I was wondering if it was possible to quickly find the cap for 8bit palletized tex too.

Not sure what you mean by "caps" but the only programming reference to paletted textures that I know of is the corresponding OpenGL extension described here.

Maybe someone else has more info on that.

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / OPTi 82C930 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 1700+ / Abit KT7A / Voodoo3 / Audigy1 / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3400+ / Asus K8V-MX / 5900XT / Audigy1
PC#4: i5-3550P / MSI Z77A-G43 / GTX 650Ti / X-Fi

Reply 389 of 400, by zyga64

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BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2022-11-24, 13:21:
Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-11-24, 09:19:
BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2022-11-24, 05:32:

Can you tell how it shows a supported feature of 8-bit palettized textures, like what is the entry in that list?

BTW, the reason why I never used synthetic tests like this for determining whether a graphics card supports table fog and paletted textures was because sometimes the manufacturers would fake support in the drivers, even though the hardware could not actually do it.

The inverse is also true, at least for the hardware I am using to write this message. It has FOGTABLE caps as YES and only way to get them is by editing the driver values. So I was wondering if it was possible to quickly find the cap for 8bit palletized tex too.

Well, maybe 3D-Analyze may be helpful ? https://www.tommti-systems.de/start.html

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Reply 390 of 400, by Putas

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Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-11-24, 13:38:
BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2022-11-24, 13:21:

The inverse is also true, at least for the hardware I am using to write this message. It has FOGTABLE caps as YES and only way to get them is by editing the driver values. So I was wondering if it was possible to quickly find the cap for 8bit palletized tex too.

Not sure what you mean by "caps" but the only programming reference to paletted textures that I know of is the corresponding OpenGL extension described here.

Maybe someone else has more info on that.

DirectX has caps (capabilities) checks. I think these would be for paletted textures:
Palette Caps
4BIT
8BITENTRIES
8BIT

Reply 391 of 400, by BEEN_Nath_58

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Putas wrote on 2022-11-24, 18:07:
DirectX has caps (capabilities) checks. I think these would be for paletted textures: Palette Caps 4BIT […]
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Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-11-24, 13:38:
BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2022-11-24, 13:21:

The inverse is also true, at least for the hardware I am using to write this message. It has FOGTABLE caps as YES and only way to get them is by editing the driver values. So I was wondering if it was possible to quickly find the cap for 8bit palletized tex too.

Not sure what you mean by "caps" but the only programming reference to paletted textures that I know of is the corresponding OpenGL extension described here.

Maybe someone else has more info on that.

DirectX has caps (capabilities) checks. I think these would be for paletted textures:
Palette Caps
4BIT
8BITENTRIES
8BIT

I checked on a Voodoo3, the 8BIT and ALLOW256 caps have YES against them, everything else is a NO. Maybe these two are the ones?
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win … palette-getcaps

Edit: There is something related to DDPF_PALETTEINDEXED8

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Reply 392 of 400, by Joseph_Joestar

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Possibly check under Texture Formats and look for 8bit RGBPAL8.

I noticed that both my Voodoo3 and my GeForce FX 5900XT have that while my ATi Radeon 9250 does not.

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / OPTi 82C930 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 1700+ / Abit KT7A / Voodoo3 / Audigy1 / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3400+ / Asus K8V-MX / 5900XT / Audigy1
PC#4: i5-3550P / MSI Z77A-G43 / GTX 650Ti / X-Fi

Reply 393 of 400, by BEEN_Nath_58

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Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-11-24, 19:07:

Possibly check under Texture Formats and look for 8bit RGBPAL8.

I noticed that both my Voodoo3 and my GeForce FX 5900XT have that while my ATi Radeon 9250 does not.

I don't have 8bit RGBPAL8. That looks closer. My V3 freaks out with "Cant create D3D device. Change display mode" trying to open Texture Formats.

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Reply 394 of 400, by Joseph_Joestar

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Here's how it looks on my GeForce FX 5900XT using dxview.exe from the DirectX 6 SDK:

FX5900XT_Caps.jpg
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In contrast, my ATi card doesn't have 8bit RGBPAL8 there.

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / OPTi 82C930 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 1700+ / Abit KT7A / Voodoo3 / Audigy1 / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3400+ / Asus K8V-MX / 5900XT / Audigy1
PC#4: i5-3550P / MSI Z77A-G43 / GTX 650Ti / X-Fi

Reply 395 of 400, by BEEN_Nath_58

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Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-11-24, 19:40:

Here's how it looks on my GeForce FX 5900XT using dxview.exe from the DirectX 6 SDK:

FX5900XT_Caps.jpg

In contrast, my ATi card doesn't have 8bit RGBPAL8 there.

Ok thanks for that. I think I will believe it to be the one because the other supported texture formats are also visible here. Plus there's the PAL suffix.

I had earlier thought 8 bit 8 texturefmt is the one, but it is not present in 5900X or Voodoo3 DxView, so that wasn't palletized textures.

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Reply 396 of 400, by Joseph_Joestar

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Found another game which uses paletted textures: GT Interactive's Driver from 1999.

Graphics cards tested:

  • 3DFX Voodoo3 2000, using 3DFX reference drivers version 1.07.00
  • Nvidia GeForce FX 5900XT using Nvidia reference drivers version 45.23
  • ATi Radeon 9250 using ATi Catalyst reference drivers version 6.2

Games tested:

  • Driver - retail CD version + official patch version 2.1

Driver configuration utility

Driver_Config.jpg
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Driver_Config.jpg
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As expected, paletted texture support is detected on the Voodoo3 and the GeForce FX, while the checkbox remains greyed out and unselectable for the ATi Radeon card.

Driver Cross Town Checkpoint: Los Angeles 2

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Among other things, Driver uses paletted textures for the neon signs in the city of Los Angeles. This is immediately visible if you start the Cross Town Checkpoint: Los Angeles 2. On the ATi card, the neon signs are completely static. In comparison, on both the Voodoo3 and GeForce FX the neon signs are animated using color cycling. This is much more apparent in motion, so please refer to this excellent YouTube video posted by @Rendar.

EDIT - added new info provided by Rendar.

Last edited by Joseph_Joestar on 2022-11-27, 10:12. Edited 3 times in total.

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / OPTi 82C930 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 1700+ / Abit KT7A / Voodoo3 / Audigy1 / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3400+ / Asus K8V-MX / 5900XT / Audigy1
PC#4: i5-3550P / MSI Z77A-G43 / GTX 650Ti / X-Fi

Reply 397 of 400, by Rendar

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Hello ! I have made a video about this game. You can see the difference in the Los Angeles map and probably in other parts of the game which I haven' t noticed. The visual effects are the pulsing lights in the city, which is available only in night mode.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHUquneKSak&t=51s

Reply 398 of 400, by Joseph_Joestar

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Rendar wrote on 2022-11-27, 08:13:

Hello ! I have made a video about this game. You can see the difference in the Los Angeles map and probably in other parts of the game which I haven' t noticed. The visual effects are the pulsing lights in the city, which is available only in night mode.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHUquneKSak&t=51s

Thank you very much! This is probably the best example of a game where having paletted texture support makes a clear and distinct visual difference.

I didn't notice this before since the city of Los Angeles is locked at the start of the game. Fortunately, I found these instructions for enabling the cheat menu, and from there I was able to open up all towns and see this for myself. It's really amazing in motion, much better than what my screenshot can show. Your video demonstrates this perfectly though, so thanks again for posting that!

PC#1: Pentium MMX 166 / Soyo SY-5BT / S3 Trio64V+ / Voodoo1 / OPTi 82C930 / AWE64 Gold / SC-155
PC#2: AthlonXP 1700+ / Abit KT7A / Voodoo3 / Audigy1 / Vortex2
PC#3: Athlon64 3400+ / Asus K8V-MX / 5900XT / Audigy1
PC#4: i5-3550P / MSI Z77A-G43 / GTX 650Ti / X-Fi

Reply 399 of 400, by BEEN_Nath_58

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Another game which probably uses Table fog is European Air War
https://sourceforge.net/p/dxwnd/discussion/ge … f5/?page=3#fd20

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