They probably used such a high contrast so that it could easily be seen from the distance of a couch.

Thanks for verifying.

Here's some out of the box knowledge and query. We have seen fog work consistently across hardware. Table/vertex fog support can be checked by using dxview.exe tool in old DX SDKs. It should say NO against the ATI card.

Regarding the 8-bit palettized texture setting I am still trying to figure out what's the correct flag there and I would be happy if soembody happens to know it. I have seen some interesting ones like MODE X and BANKSWITCHING, but they are out of context here.

BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2022-11-23, 18:41:

Table/vertex fog support can be checked by using dxview.exe tool in old DX SDKs.

This isn't exactly rare. There are various tools like the System Info page of 3D Mark '99 that can list all detected capabilities of a graphics card:

Everest is another utility from the mid 2000s which can do something similar.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-11-23, 19:14:

This isn't exactly rare. There are various tools like the System Info page of 3D Mark '99 that can list all detected capabilitie […]
Show full quote

BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2022-11-23, 18:41:

Table/vertex fog support can be checked by using dxview.exe tool in old DX SDKs.

This isn't exactly rare. There are various tools like the System Info page of 3D Mark '99 that can list all detected capabilities of a graphics card:

3DMark99_Sysinfo.jpg

Everest is another utility from the mid 2000s which can do something similar.

Can you tell how it shows a supported feature of 8-bit palettized textures, like what is the entry in that list?

BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2022-11-24, 05:32:

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-11-23, 19:14:

This isn't exactly rare. There are various tools like the System Info page of 3D Mark '99 that can list all detected capabilitie […]
Show full quote

BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2022-11-23, 18:41:

Table/vertex fog support can be checked by using dxview.exe tool in old DX SDKs.

This isn't exactly rare. There are various tools like the System Info page of 3D Mark '99 that can list all detected capabilities of a graphics card:

3DMark99_Sysinfo.jpg

Everest is another utility from the mid 2000s which can do something similar.

Can you tell how it shows a supported feature of 8-bit palettized textures, like what is the entry in that list?

Table fog

gmaverick2k wrote on 2022-11-24, 06:14:

BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2022-11-24, 05:32:

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-11-23, 19:14:

This isn't exactly rare. There are various tools like the System Info page of 3D Mark '99 that can list all detected capabilities of a graphics card:

3DMark99_Sysinfo.jpg

Everest is another utility from the mid 2000s which can do something similar.

Can you tell how it shows a supported feature of 8-bit palettized textures, like what is the entry in that list?

Table fog

Why should "8-bit palettized textures" support should be shown with "Table fog" entry? Are you sure about that?

BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2022-11-24, 05:32:

Can you tell how it shows a supported feature of 8-bit palettized textures, like what is the entry in that list?

I don't think 3D Mark checks for that.

BTW, the reason why I never used synthetic tests like this for determining whether a graphics card supports table fog and paletted textures was because sometimes the manufacturers would fake support in the drivers, even though the hardware could not actually do it.

For that reason, I always prefer to use retail versions of games (with only the official patches applied) to test for these features. Specifically, Final Fantasy 8 is my test of choice for paletted textures, while either Shadows of the Empire or Thief 2 can be used to test table fog. If you don't see the fog effect render in-game, then the hardware doesn't support it, despite possible driver fakery. Similarly, if the menu in FF8 is washed out, then the hardware doesn't support paletted textures.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-11-24, 09:19:

BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2022-11-24, 05:32:

Can you tell how it shows a supported feature of 8-bit palettized textures, like what is the entry in that list?

BTW, the reason why I never used synthetic tests like this for determining whether a graphics card supports table fog and paletted textures was because sometimes the manufacturers would fake support in the drivers, even though the hardware could not actually do it.

The inverse is also true, at least for the hardware I am using to write this message. It has FOGTABLE caps as YES and only way to get them is by editing the driver values. So I was wondering if it was possible to quickly find the cap for 8bit palletized tex too.

BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2022-11-24, 13:21:

The inverse is also true, at least for the hardware I am using to write this message. It has FOGTABLE caps as YES and only way to get them is by editing the driver values. So I was wondering if it was possible to quickly find the cap for 8bit palletized tex too.

Not sure what you mean by "caps" but the only programming reference to paletted textures that I know of is the corresponding OpenGL extension described here.

Maybe someone else has more info on that.

BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2022-11-24, 13:21:

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-11-24, 09:19:

BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2022-11-24, 05:32:

Can you tell how it shows a supported feature of 8-bit palettized textures, like what is the entry in that list?

BTW, the reason why I never used synthetic tests like this for determining whether a graphics card supports table fog and paletted textures was because sometimes the manufacturers would fake support in the drivers, even though the hardware could not actually do it.

The inverse is also true, at least for the hardware I am using to write this message. It has FOGTABLE caps as YES and only way to get them is by editing the driver values. So I was wondering if it was possible to quickly find the cap for 8bit palletized tex too.

Well, maybe 3D-Analyze may be helpful ? https://www.tommti-systems.de/start.html

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-11-24, 13:38:

BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2022-11-24, 13:21:

The inverse is also true, at least for the hardware I am using to write this message. It has FOGTABLE caps as YES and only way to get them is by editing the driver values. So I was wondering if it was possible to quickly find the cap for 8bit palletized tex too.

Not sure what you mean by "caps" but the only programming reference to paletted textures that I know of is the corresponding OpenGL extension described here.

Maybe someone else has more info on that.

DirectX has caps (capabilities) checks. I think these would be for paletted textures:
Palette Caps
4BIT
8BITENTRIES
8BIT

Putas wrote on 2022-11-24, 18:07:

DirectX has caps (capabilities) checks. I think these would be for paletted textures: Palette Caps 4BIT […]
Show full quote

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-11-24, 13:38:

BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2022-11-24, 13:21:

The inverse is also true, at least for the hardware I am using to write this message. It has FOGTABLE caps as YES and only way to get them is by editing the driver values. So I was wondering if it was possible to quickly find the cap for 8bit palletized tex too.

Not sure what you mean by "caps" but the only programming reference to paletted textures that I know of is the corresponding OpenGL extension described here.

Maybe someone else has more info on that.

DirectX has caps (capabilities) checks. I think these would be for paletted textures:
Palette Caps
4BIT
8BITENTRIES
8BIT

I checked on a Voodoo3, the 8BIT and ALLOW256 caps have YES against them, everything else is a NO. Maybe these two are the ones?
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win … palette-getcaps

Edit: There is something related to DDPF_PALETTEINDEXED8

Possibly check under Texture Formats and look for 8bit RGBPAL8.

I noticed that both my Voodoo3 and my GeForce FX 5900XT have that while my ATi Radeon 9250 does not.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-11-24, 19:07:

Possibly check under Texture Formats and look for 8bit RGBPAL8.

I noticed that both my Voodoo3 and my GeForce FX 5900XT have that while my ATi Radeon 9250 does not.

I don't have 8bit RGBPAL8. That looks closer. My V3 freaks out with "Cant create D3D device. Change display mode" trying to open Texture Formats.

Here's how it looks on my GeForce FX 5900XT using dxview.exe from the DirectX 6 SDK:

In contrast, my ATi card doesn't have 8bit RGBPAL8 there.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-11-24, 19:40:

Here's how it looks on my GeForce FX 5900XT using dxview.exe from the DirectX 6 SDK:

FX5900XT_Caps.jpg

In contrast, my ATi card doesn't have 8bit RGBPAL8 there.

Ok thanks for that. I think I will believe it to be the one because the other supported texture formats are also visible here. Plus there's the PAL suffix.

I had earlier thought 8 bit 8 texturefmt is the one, but it is not present in 5900X or Voodoo3 DxView, so that wasn't palletized textures.

Found another game which uses paletted textures: GT Interactive's Driver from 1999.

Graphics cards tested:

• 3DFX Voodoo3 2000, using 3DFX reference drivers version 1.07.00
• Nvidia GeForce FX 5900XT using Nvidia reference drivers version 45.23
• ATi Radeon 9250 using ATi Catalyst reference drivers version 6.2

Games tested:

• Driver - retail CD version + official patch version 2.1

Driver configuration utility

As expected, paletted texture support is detected on the Voodoo3 and the GeForce FX, while the checkbox remains greyed out and unselectable for the ATi Radeon card.

Driver Cross Town Checkpoint: Los Angeles 2

Among other things, Driver uses paletted textures for the neon signs in the city of Los Angeles. This is immediately visible if you start the Cross Town Checkpoint: Los Angeles 2. On the ATi card, the neon signs are completely static. In comparison, on both the Voodoo3 and GeForce FX the neon signs are animated using color cycling. This is much more apparent in motion, so please refer to this excellent YouTube video posted by @Rendar.

EDIT - added new info provided by Rendar.

Hello ! I have made a video about this game. You can see the difference in the Los Angeles map and probably in other parts of the game which I haven' t noticed. The visual effects are the pulsing lights in the city, which is available only in night mode.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHUquneKSak&t=51s

Rendar wrote on 2022-11-27, 08:13:

Hello ! I have made a video about this game. You can see the difference in the Los Angeles map and probably in other parts of the game which I haven' t noticed. The visual effects are the pulsing lights in the city, which is available only in night mode.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHUquneKSak&t=51s

Thank you very much! This is probably the best example of a game where having paletted texture support makes a clear and distinct visual difference.

I didn't notice this before since the city of Los Angeles is locked at the start of the game. Fortunately, I found these instructions for enabling the cheat menu, and from there I was able to open up all towns and see this for myself. It's really amazing in motion, much better than what my screenshot can show. Your video demonstrates this perfectly though, so thanks again for posting that!

Another game which probably uses Table fog is European Air War
https://sourceforge.net/p/dxwnd/discussion/ge … f5/?page=3#fd20