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Reply 160 of 179, by darry

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foil_fresh wrote on 2020-09-18, 04:10:

I'm interested in doing some video recordings - doesn't have to be amazing picture quality, just the ability to capture 60fps. would the Extron mentioned above be good to pair with a so-so pci-e hdmi capture card?

also, when it comes to playing a game as well as capturing it, would i be better off getting a hdmi splitter AFTER converting or using a VGA splitter before converting? would I lose signal by splitting the vga signal to 2 outputs?

i'd be capturing 320x200/320x240/640x400/640x480/800x600/1024x768/1280x1024. audio is routed direct from a KVM to my main PC where the video capture card will be also.

The Extron is good and likely compatible with cheap PCIE/USB HDMI capture cards that only handle standard ATSC resolutions (1080p, 720p, etc) and possibly VESA ones . It won't be as sharp as an OSSC, but still much better than an Nvidia card's upscaling 320x200 to whatever over DVI .

An HDMI splitter is probably simpler and less likely to have issues, IMHO . High quality VGA splitting is possible, but requires a decent quality high bandwidth splitter and proper VGA cables . The only advantage of splitting VGA instead of HDMI, IMHO, is that bypassing the scaler/digitizer can give lower latency when playing .

While doing video/audio capture using separate devices, be mindful of possible AV sync issues . Virtualdub(2), for example, has an option to re-sample captured audio to maintain AV sync . Another option for audio capture is to get a version of the Extron that support audio input and to capture audio along with video over HDMI .

Finally, regarding audio, you may experience ground loop issues (hum) . A ground loop isolator might be something to consider if you can't find another solution .

Good luck . Feel free to ask more questions .

EDIT : Out of curiosity, what PCIE capture card do you intend to use ?

Reply 161 of 179, by foil_fresh

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darry wrote on 2020-09-18, 04:50:
The Extron is good and likely compatible with cheap PCIE/USB HDMI capture cards that only handle standard ATSC resolutions (1080 […]
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foil_fresh wrote on 2020-09-18, 04:10:

I'm interested in doing some video recordings - doesn't have to be amazing picture quality, just the ability to capture 60fps. would the Extron mentioned above be good to pair with a so-so pci-e hdmi capture card?

also, when it comes to playing a game as well as capturing it, would i be better off getting a hdmi splitter AFTER converting or using a VGA splitter before converting? would I lose signal by splitting the vga signal to 2 outputs?

i'd be capturing 320x200/320x240/640x400/640x480/800x600/1024x768/1280x1024. audio is routed direct from a KVM to my main PC where the video capture card will be also.

The Extron is good and likely compatible with cheap PCIE/USB HDMI capture cards that only handle standard ATSC resolutions (1080p, 720p, etc) and possibly VESA ones . It won't be as sharp as an OSSC, but still much better than an Nvidia card's upscaling 320x200 to whatever over DVI .

An HDMI splitter is probably simpler and less likely to have issues, IMHO . High quality VGA splitting is possible, but requires a decent quality high bandwidth splitter and proper VGA cables . The only advantage of splitting VGA instead of HDMI, IMHO, is that bypassing the scaler/digitizer can give lower latency when playing .

While doing video/audio capture using separate devices, be mindful of possible AV sync issues . Virtualdub(2), for example, has an option to re-sample captured audio to maintain AV sync . Another option for audio capture is to get a version of the Extron that support audio input and to capture audio along with video over HDMI .

Finally, regarding audio, you may experience ground loop issues (hum) . A ground loop isolator might be something to consider if you can't find another solution .

Good luck . Feel free to ask more questions .

EDIT : Out of curiosity, what PCIE capture card do you intend to use ?

I haven't put that much thought into it yet, but not really anything expensive. Suggestions?

edit: Audio noise levels are fine if i tweak them, the KVM is the source of most interference but i do want an audio mixer at some stage. Possibly something that can input 3.5 and output digital.

edit2: "The only advantage of splitting VGA instead of HDMI, IMHO, is that bypassing the scaler/digitizer can give lower latency when playing ." yeah i think i'd go with this option if hdmi splitting inevitably brings lag

Reply 162 of 179, by darry

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foil_fresh wrote on 2020-09-18, 05:52:
I haven't put that much thought into it yet, but not really anything expensive. Suggestions? […]
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darry wrote on 2020-09-18, 04:50:
The Extron is good and likely compatible with cheap PCIE/USB HDMI capture cards that only handle standard ATSC resolutions (1080 […]
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foil_fresh wrote on 2020-09-18, 04:10:

I'm interested in doing some video recordings - doesn't have to be amazing picture quality, just the ability to capture 60fps. would the Extron mentioned above be good to pair with a so-so pci-e hdmi capture card?

also, when it comes to playing a game as well as capturing it, would i be better off getting a hdmi splitter AFTER converting or using a VGA splitter before converting? would I lose signal by splitting the vga signal to 2 outputs?

i'd be capturing 320x200/320x240/640x400/640x480/800x600/1024x768/1280x1024. audio is routed direct from a KVM to my main PC where the video capture card will be also.

The Extron is good and likely compatible with cheap PCIE/USB HDMI capture cards that only handle standard ATSC resolutions (1080p, 720p, etc) and possibly VESA ones . It won't be as sharp as an OSSC, but still much better than an Nvidia card's upscaling 320x200 to whatever over DVI .

An HDMI splitter is probably simpler and less likely to have issues, IMHO . High quality VGA splitting is possible, but requires a decent quality high bandwidth splitter and proper VGA cables . The only advantage of splitting VGA instead of HDMI, IMHO, is that bypassing the scaler/digitizer can give lower latency when playing .

While doing video/audio capture using separate devices, be mindful of possible AV sync issues . Virtualdub(2), for example, has an option to re-sample captured audio to maintain AV sync . Another option for audio capture is to get a version of the Extron that support audio input and to capture audio along with video over HDMI .

Finally, regarding audio, you may experience ground loop issues (hum) . A ground loop isolator might be something to consider if you can't find another solution .

Good luck . Feel free to ask more questions .

EDIT : Out of curiosity, what PCIE capture card do you intend to use ?

I haven't put that much thought into it yet, but not really anything expensive. Suggestions?

edit: Audio noise levels are fine if i tweak them, the KVM is the source of most interference but i do want an audio mixer at some stage. Possibly something that can input 3.5 and output digital.

edit2: "The only advantage of splitting VGA instead of HDMI, IMHO, is that bypassing the scaler/digitizer can give lower latency when playing ." yeah i think i'd go with this option if hdmi splitting inevitably brings lag

Just to be clear, it's not the HDMI splitting that causes latency, it's running through the Extron RGB-DVI (or HDMI) 300 digitizer/scaler that does . Annecdotal evidence on shmups suggests over 20 milliseconds of latency .

As for PCIE HDMI capture devices, I suggest a device that supports RGB input or, if not, at least YUY2 (4:2:2 sub-sampling) at worse . According to general consensus here, one of the best capture cards you can get is PCIE and is the Datapath E1S . It captures DVI or VGA and supports RGB . It is about 100 US$ used if you shop around and would actually eliminate the need for the Extron saler as it can capture nearly any resolution natively . I have one on order .

Reply 163 of 179, by maxtherabbit

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You can get an extron sw2 vga a, or da2 for like $5 on ebay that will act as a top quality vga splitter

The da2 actually includes a tethered coax vga input cable, so that's one less you have to source

Reply 164 of 179, by darry

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maxtherabbit wrote on 2020-09-18, 14:51:

You can get an extron sw2 vga a, or da2 for like $5 on ebay that will act as a top quality vga splitter

The da2 actually includes a tethered coax vga input cable, so that's one less you have to source

I have a powered Startech one rated at 350MHz bandwidth that I use when needed . It was a 10$ purchase . For the resolutions that OP has in mind, even 250MHz or better should be quite adequate (allowing for some operating margin).

Reply 165 of 179, by maxtherabbit

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When you can get extron (unquestionably top of the line) for so cheap I just don't see the point in taking a chance on a different one unless you just so happen to already have it lying around. They could easily not live up to their stated bandwidth, or introduce interference from poor routing or power. Extron is a sure bet

Reply 166 of 179, by darry

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maxtherabbit wrote on 2020-09-18, 20:40:

When you can get extron (unquestionably top of the line) for so cheap I just don't see the point in taking a chance on a different one unless you just so happen to already have it lying around. They could easily not live up to their stated bandwidth, or introduce interference from poor routing or power. Extron is a sure bet

I agree that the Extron is a safe bet. I was just giving some generic info in case it was not available or as cheap (shipping) in foil_fresh 's location .

EDIT : I would not go with a brand without a reputation to upkeep either . Crestron, Extron, Startech, etc are much safer bets than some fly by night brand .

Reply 167 of 179, by AcidJazz

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Hi guys, I'd like to ask, possibly, for a recommendation about an active converter/scaler.
The idea is to connect a Riva TNT2 Ultra (VGA port) to a converter/scaler and then to an ultrawide 32 inches monitor with HDMI ports.
The purpose is to keep a 4:3 aspect ratio, maybe also with black bars on both sides.

I have seen cheap options from let's say around 15/20 euros up to 150, I'd like to keep it cheap tho 😁

Any suggestion as I'm not familiar with those devices would be greatly appreciated 😀

Reply 168 of 179, by darry

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AcidJazz wrote on 2020-11-12, 20:11:
Hi guys, I'd like to ask, possibly, for a recommendation about an active converter/scaler. The idea is to connect a Riva TNT2 Ul […]
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Hi guys, I'd like to ask, possibly, for a recommendation about an active converter/scaler.
The idea is to connect a Riva TNT2 Ultra (VGA port) to a converter/scaler and then to an ultrawide 32 inches monitor with HDMI ports.
The purpose is to keep a 4:3 aspect ratio, maybe also with black bars on both sides.

I have seen cheap options from let's say around 15/20 euros up to 150, I'd like to keep it cheap tho 😁

Any suggestion as I'm not familiar with those devices would be greatly appreciated 😀

If you are going to be running mainly Windows and don't mind DOS VGA games having their 70Hz converted to 60Hz, either

https://www.extron.com/product/rgbdvi300
or
https://www.extron.com/product/rgbhdmi300a

Would a good choice .

The DVI version can do HDMI with a passive converter .

The HDMI version does audio too, AFAICR .

Reply 170 of 179, by Pierre32

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AcidJazz wrote on 2020-11-13, 10:06:

Yes, mainly it will be Windows 98 SE, I'll run some DOS as well but it's not the main purpose.
The RGB-HDMI 300 A might be a good option.
No cheaper options available tho?

Scan the second hand market. I got the DVI version for 23USD a few months back.

Reply 171 of 179, by bestemor

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darry wrote on 2020-06-19, 07:35:

Some more interesting info .
The firmware for the Crestron HD-SCALER-VGA-E contains a reference to Cypress (CYP) and to the CP-293N . That would help explain why the HD-SCALER-VGA-E accepts 1024x768@70Hz (just tested), even though it is not documented in its manual . This resolution happens to be the only 70Hz one supported by the CYP CP-293N, according to its manual . As mentioned before in this thread, I also suspect 1024x768@70Hz input will work on the Startech VGA2HDPRO2, even if it is not documented as I believe it is probably similar to the CP-293N .
However, as none of these scalers support 640x400@70Hz or 720x400@70Hz as input, so they are not really useful to us .

So, seeing as you have this thing in your possession, the statement/spec on their web page about accepted input resolutions is somewhat misleading ?
(me just assuming 720x400@70 actually is within the 165Mhz, have not calculated 😊)

https://www.crestron.com/Products/Video/HDMI- … HD-SCALER-VGA-E

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Input Resolutions, RGB
640x480@60/72/75/85Hz, 720x480@60Hz (480p), 720x576@50Hz (576p), 800x600@56/60/72/75/85Hz, 848x480@60Hz, 1024x768@60/70/75/85Hz, 1280x720@50/60Hz (720p50/60), 1280x768@60Hz, 1280x800@60Hz, 1280x960@60Hz, 1280x1024@60/75/85Hz, 1360x768@60Hz, 1366x768@60Hz, 1400x1050@60Hz, 1440x900@60Hz, 1600x1200@60Hz, 1680x1050@50/60Hz, 1920x1080@50/60Hz (1080p50/60), 1920x1200@60Hz[5], plus any other resolution up to 165MHz pixel clock

Reply 172 of 179, by darry

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bestemor wrote on 2021-03-16, 16:03:
So, seeing as you have this thing in your possession, the statement/spec on their web page about accepted input resolutions is […]
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darry wrote on 2020-06-19, 07:35:

Some more interesting info .
The firmware for the Crestron HD-SCALER-VGA-E contains a reference to Cypress (CYP) and to the CP-293N . That would help explain why the HD-SCALER-VGA-E accepts 1024x768@70Hz (just tested), even though it is not documented in its manual . This resolution happens to be the only 70Hz one supported by the CYP CP-293N, according to its manual . As mentioned before in this thread, I also suspect 1024x768@70Hz input will work on the Startech VGA2HDPRO2, even if it is not documented as I believe it is probably similar to the CP-293N .
However, as none of these scalers support 640x400@70Hz or 720x400@70Hz as input, so they are not really useful to us .

So, seeing as you have this thing in your possession, the statement/spec on their web page about accepted input resolutions is somewhat misleading ?
(me just assuming 720x400@70 actually is within the 165Mhz, have not calculated 😊)

https://www.crestron.com/Products/Video/HDMI- … HD-SCALER-VGA-E
crestron.JPG
Input Resolutions, RGB
640x480@60/72/75/85Hz, 720x480@60Hz (480p), 720x576@50Hz (576p), 800x600@56/60/72/75/85Hz, 848x480@60Hz, 1024x768@60/70/75/85Hz, 1280x720@50/60Hz (720p50/60), 1280x768@60Hz, 1280x800@60Hz, 1280x960@60Hz, 1280x1024@60/75/85Hz, 1360x768@60Hz, 1366x768@60Hz, 1400x1050@60Hz, 1440x900@60Hz, 1600x1200@60Hz, 1680x1050@50/60Hz, 1920x1080@50/60Hz (1080p50/60), 1920x1200@60Hz[5], plus any other resolution up to 165MHz pixel clock

That statement is what misled me into buying it . 😉

720x400@70Hz (actually 900x449 if you include non visible/active pixels and runs at 70.087Hz or thereabouts) is 28.322MHz, so definitely under 165MHz .

Reply 174 of 179, by matti157

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Prez wrote on 2020-08-14, 12:21:
Hi all ! […]
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Hi all !

Just received another VGA2HDMI cheap device that works great under DOS mode 70Hz !
20200814_075848.jpg
20200814_075853.jpg

I will upload a video of Doom working on it.
It seems to be this one :
https://fr.aliexpress.com/item/32692452101.ht … .46f47ed3pf2rTs

Best regards
Philippe Dubois

thank you! I just got the same one for 10 €

Reply 175 of 179, by Newbilius

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I read all 9 pages, but I'm still not sure... OSSC and GBS-C AIO can work correctly with low resolutions - 320x200, 320x240 and 640x400? Once again I apologize if I missed the answer in this thread :-]

Reply 176 of 179, by darry

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Newbilius wrote on 2021-07-05, 05:18:

I read all 9 pages, but I'm still not sure... OSSC and GBS-C AIO can work correctly with low resolutions - 320x200, 320x240 and 640x400? Once again I apologize if I missed the answer in this thread :-]

For the OSSC, if the question is about VGA modes, the answer is yes, though monitor compatibility is important as well .

See :
Re: Purchasing a 4:3 LCD for DOS/DOSBOX/MISTER/OSSC games?

EDIT : There is also this nice 15-page thread Widescreen monitors and 4:3 aspect ratio compatibility thread , if you have some time to burn . 😉 Joking aside, I feel for you. There is a lot of useful information spread inside multiple threads and spanning years, on this and so many other subjects . Searching for what you need can be tedious .

Reply 178 of 179, by Mu0n

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How a year changes things...
I wish I would have read this thread before ordering this GANA VGA to HDMI Adapter 1080P HD Supported Analog Signal to Digital Signal Convertor Cable with 3.5mm Audio Cable and USB Power Cable for HDTV PC and Laptop
https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B07CTHPVB5

I've tested it on 2 PC LCD monitors as well as my Sony Bravia 55" and ONLY the bios screen works. Nothing else under DOS 6.22 or even Win98se (I tested out 640x480, 800x600 and 1024x768) works.

Extron-300 is unavailable on amazon. I'm guessing the company itself doesn't deal with individual cudtomers, but living in Canada and including shipping + duties + taxes, would make it ridiculously out of reach for such a use case scenario. The cheapest Extron 300 I can find on ebay.ca is listed around $32 CAD + $35 CAD shipping, but is "untested" so I assume it's 100% DOA.
All of the aliexpress links that were provided in the thread are dead except for the last 2-3 pages (it would be helpful to include the exact search string alongside a URL for this sad fact that these commercial links are ephemeral and won't work after a mere year).

I'm hoping someone with the skills and knowledge comparable to Ben Eater (maker of 'the worst VGA video card' youtube video where he checks enough of the specs for VGA to output an EEPROM's content into a VGA signal, using a breadboard and logic chips) would make a DEDICATED solution for specifically at least MS-DOS, while also shedding the need to cater for other video signals used in retro consoles, or more modern high-res VGA signals that are catered to with the cheapie VGA-­>HDMI solutions of 2000+.

Reply 179 of 179, by darry

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Mu0n wrote on 2021-07-21, 16:07:
How a year changes things... I wish I would have read this thread before ordering this GANA VGA to HDMI Adapter 1080P HD Support […]
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How a year changes things...
I wish I would have read this thread before ordering this GANA VGA to HDMI Adapter 1080P HD Supported Analog Signal to Digital Signal Convertor Cable with 3.5mm Audio Cable and USB Power Cable for HDTV PC and Laptop
https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B07CTHPVB5

I've tested it on 2 PC LCD monitors as well as my Sony Bravia 55" and ONLY the bios screen works. Nothing else under DOS 6.22 or even Win98se (I tested out 640x480, 800x600 and 1024x768) works.

Extron-300 is unavailable on amazon. I'm guessing the company itself doesn't deal with individual cudtomers, but living in Canada and including shipping + duties + taxes, would make it ridiculously out of reach for such a use case scenario. The cheapest Extron 300 I can find on ebay.ca is listed around $32 CAD + $35 CAD shipping, but is "untested" so I assume it's 100% DOA.
All of the aliexpress links that were provided in the thread are dead except for the last 2-3 pages (it would be helpful to include the exact search string alongside a URL for this sad fact that these commercial links are ephemeral and won't work after a mere year).

I'm hoping someone with the skills and knowledge comparable to Ben Eater (maker of 'the worst VGA video card' youtube video where he checks enough of the specs for VGA to output an EEPROM's content into a VGA signal, using a breadboard and logic chips) would make a DEDICATED solution for specifically at least MS-DOS, while also shedding the need to cater for other video signals used in retro consoles, or more modern high-res VGA signals that are catered to with the cheapie VGA-­>HDMI solutions of 2000+.

I would look for an Extron RGB HDMI 300 or Extron RGB DVI 300 that is being sold as part of a lot (multiple units for sale) and, optionally, with an included power supply . IMHO, someone selling multiple units is unlikely to be trying to unload a stack of DOAs . Additionally, if the units don't come with a power supply, testing them is made more complicated by the need for a PSU with a 2 pin phoenix connector (a.k.a. 2-pole, 3.5 mm captive screw connector) which most sellers probably do not have on hand, so the units remain untested .

For reference, I got an Extron RGB DVI 300 through a certain auction site in May 2020 for US $47.09 ( CAN $68.70). It came with a PSU and that US $47.09 ( CAN $68.70) included shipping to Canada and import duties .

The OSSC Pro will probably be an option too when it comes out, but it will not be inexpensive .