VOGONS


Reply 20 of 43, by Scythifuge

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darry wrote on 2021-03-07, 05:13:
Scythifuge wrote on 2021-03-07, 04:51:
shamino wrote on 2021-03-07, 01:39:
I like the LP2065 but because they are IPS/VA panels they don't do 70Hz. Anything with smooth scrolling at 70Hz will be noticea […]
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I like the LP2065 but because they are IPS/VA panels they don't do 70Hz. Anything with smooth scrolling at 70Hz will be noticeably jerky. Depending what you play you might be happier with a TN panel.

A 1600x1200 monitor with a TN panel would be interesting for DOS. TN panels will do 70Hz, but they don't have the color quality you desire. I don't think many TN 1600x1200s were ever made, that was a premium resolution and people buying them wanted IPS or VA.
TN panels are usually 1024x768 or 1280x1024, but those resolutions aren't as ideal for scaling.
It's too bad that IPS and VA panels have the frameskipping issue at 70Hz. That makes LCDs in DOS always a compromise vs CRT I'm afraid.

I have a Samsung 943SWX 1360x768 which has a filled 4:3 option. I've seen other Samsungs mentioned with the same feature, so I think it was a standard thing on their widescreen monitors for a while. Maybe it still is.
My Samsung 930B (5:4 1280x1024) does *not* have a 4:3 option though.

I was testing the LP2065 in DOS with Dune II so that I could mess with the settings, and I believe the info said that it was running at 70Hz. I'll check it again. I bought it because the info on the monitor read that it operated at up to 85Hz, depending on resolution and if the input was analogue. I am using DVI/VGA adapters connected to a Voodoo 3. I will test it again and also compare it to the 19" KDS I found, when it arrives.

What smooth scrolling games would you recommend that I use for testing? I have many games in my collection.

My goto vintage test is starting Doom 1 and spinning on my axis at the spawn point on the first level . Doom may only refresh at 35Hz, but frameskipping (due to 70Hz converted to 60Hz ny the monitor) has been very apparent to me in that informal test . Being able to observe a baseline on a monitor already confirmed as not subject to frameskipping when fed 70Hz makes it easy to see when frameskipping does occur on a given monitor .

Thank you. I'll test the LP2065 with Doom. If there is noticeable lag with it, I'll probably stick with the KDS when it arrives, despite losing 2 inches of view space.

This is why I will ultimately go with a projector and create a 30" screen for it. In my thread about networking with my Ultimate Box, I think I mentioned finding an old school computer desk with hutch that is similar to the one I had back in the day. The hutch has a divider. I was thinking of getting poster foam board and painting it with screen paint and attaching it to the back of the hutch, and finding a projector that I can place in front of the keyboard. I think that the sides of the hutch will prevent a lot of ambient light from reaching the screen, and theoretically give me a rather good and large picture. Of course, there are a million different projectors, so I need to find one that will display DOS games in 4:3 with little lag.

Reply 21 of 43, by darry

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Scythifuge wrote on 2021-03-07, 05:37:
darry wrote on 2021-03-07, 05:13:
Scythifuge wrote on 2021-03-07, 04:51:

I was testing the LP2065 in DOS with Dune II so that I could mess with the settings, and I believe the info said that it was running at 70Hz. I'll check it again. I bought it because the info on the monitor read that it operated at up to 85Hz, depending on resolution and if the input was analogue. I am using DVI/VGA adapters connected to a Voodoo 3. I will test it again and also compare it to the 19" KDS I found, when it arrives.

What smooth scrolling games would you recommend that I use for testing? I have many games in my collection.

My goto vintage test is starting Doom 1 and spinning on my axis at the spawn point on the first level . Doom may only refresh at 35Hz, but frameskipping (due to 70Hz converted to 60Hz ny the monitor) has been very apparent to me in that informal test . Being able to observe a baseline on a monitor already confirmed as not subject to frameskipping when fed 70Hz makes it easy to see when frameskipping does occur on a given monitor .

Thank you. I'll test the LP2065 with Doom. If there is noticeable lag with it, I'll probably stick with the KDS when it arrives, despite losing 2 inches of view space.

This is why I will ultimately go with a projector and create a 30" screen for it. In my thread about networking with my Ultimate Box, I think I mentioned finding an old school computer desk with hutch that is similar to the one I had back in the day. The hutch has a divider. I was thinking of getting poster foam board and painting it with screen paint and attaching it to the back of the hutch, and finding a projector that I can place in front of the keyboard. I think that the sides of the hutch will prevent a lot of ambient light from reaching the screen, and theoretically give me a rather good and large picture. Of course, there are a million different projectors, so I need to find one that will display DOS games in 4:3 with little lag.

Just to be extra clear, when a monitor is said to frameskip (skips frames) when being fed 70Hz, it typically seems to display 6 frames out of 7 while literally skipping (not displaying) that remaining frame . I imagine that the way a given monitor's controller board electronics actually do that introduces some latency (a.k.a. lag) because they conceivably (and I could be wrong about that), need to feed the display panel a steady diet of 60 evenly timed images per second, which implies (if my math and understanding are correct), extending the duration of each group of 6 remaining frames out of 7 by enough time to completely fill 1/10 of a second . This comes out to an added duration/latency of 2.38 milliseconds for the for the first frame out of the 6 remaining and a max cummulative latency of about 14.28 milliseconds for the last of the 6 remaining frames . This latency is in addition to the latency that a monitor would normally have when dealing with a 60Hz signal.

That said, IMHO, the main issue with frameskipping 70Hz to 60Hz is not the variable latency/lag of up to 14.28 milliseconds, but the fact that skipping frames reduces smoothness of motion which, to me, is very apparent even at a locked 35 fps in Doom .

Sorry if am stating the obvious and/or being overly pedantic, but your use of the word "lag" made me want to make sure that we are talking about the same thing .

Good luck with the projector .

EDIT: Please correct me if my understanding or math are off .

Reply 22 of 43, by Scythifuge

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darry wrote on 2021-03-07, 11:49:
Just to be extra clear, when a monitor is said to frameskip (skips frames) when being fed 70Hz, it typically seems to display 6 […]
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Scythifuge wrote on 2021-03-07, 05:37:
darry wrote on 2021-03-07, 05:13:

My goto vintage test is starting Doom 1 and spinning on my axis at the spawn point on the first level . Doom may only refresh at 35Hz, but frameskipping (due to 70Hz converted to 60Hz ny the monitor) has been very apparent to me in that informal test . Being able to observe a baseline on a monitor already confirmed as not subject to frameskipping when fed 70Hz makes it easy to see when frameskipping does occur on a given monitor .

Thank you. I'll test the LP2065 with Doom. If there is noticeable lag with it, I'll probably stick with the KDS when it arrives, despite losing 2 inches of view space.

This is why I will ultimately go with a projector and create a 30" screen for it. In my thread about networking with my Ultimate Box, I think I mentioned finding an old school computer desk with hutch that is similar to the one I had back in the day. The hutch has a divider. I was thinking of getting poster foam board and painting it with screen paint and attaching it to the back of the hutch, and finding a projector that I can place in front of the keyboard. I think that the sides of the hutch will prevent a lot of ambient light from reaching the screen, and theoretically give me a rather good and large picture. Of course, there are a million different projectors, so I need to find one that will display DOS games in 4:3 with little lag.

Just to be extra clear, when a monitor is said to frameskip (skips frames) when being fed 70Hz, it typically seems to display 6 frames out of 7 while literally skipping (not displaying) that remaining frame . I imagine that the way a given monitor's controller board electronics actually do that introduces some latency (a.k.a. lag) because they conceivably (and I could be wrong about that), need to feed the display panel a steady diet of 60 evenly timed images per second, which implies (if my math and understanding are correct), extending the duration of each group of 6 remaining frames out of 7 by enough time to completely fill 1/10 of a second . This comes out to an added duration/latency of 2.38 milliseconds for the for the first frame out of the 6 remaining and a max cummulative latency of about 14.28 milliseconds for the last of the 6 remaining frames . This latency is in addition to the latency that a monitor would normally have when dealing with a 60Hz signal.

That said, IMHO, the main issue with frameskipping 70Hz to 60Hz is not the variable latency/lag of up to 14.28 milliseconds, but the fact that skipping frames reduces smoothness of motion which, to me, is very apparent even at a locked 35 fps in Doom .

Sorry if am stating the obvious and/or being overly pedantic, but your use of the word "lag" made me want to make sure that we are talking about the same thing .

Good luck with the projector .

EDIT: Please correct me if my understanding or math are off .

This all makes sense. I am also seeing another issue that I am reading about in another Vogons thread:

General Problems with analog VGA on TFTs and Converters

I think I am seeing this in the fonts used in Dune II. I read somewhere that the LP2065 was the "holy grail" for a semi-modern display for DOS games, and I bought it without conducting research (and made the purchase before finding the KDS CRT.) While I get a 4:3 aspect ratio, it will not be pixel perfect. It will probably be used as a back up display or used in a Windows 98 or XP situation for games that support higher resolutions but that do not support widescreen.

The 19" monitor will be nice (when it arrives,) though with 18" viewable, I will keep searching for larger display options which provide the best picture that retains the look that the game developers intended. My old 46" Samsung TV had a VGA port and I remember studying the screen while playing Savage Empire with the TV in 4:3 mode. It looked proper, though I cannot recall the Hz in DOS on it.

The projector (if it works in 70Hz) or an OSSC option will probably be what I ultimately go with. I made an offer on an OSSC which was declined. I am glad for that , because I found out about the OSSC Pro afterwards.

If I was a millionaire, I would simply invest in retro machine and display, licensing what I would need from companies like Creative Labs, Roland, Nvidia, Intel, etc. I would find a company that could make a 25"-30" 4:3 display that displayed graphics as they were meant to be seen. I wouldn't even care about making a profit if I recouped the investment, and I would do this simply to help the retro community and to keep MS-DOS/Win 3.x alive. Another technology I read about is micro-LED, and that may be a future solution for having graphics properly displayed on a modern display.

Reply 24 of 43, by darry

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Scythifuge wrote on 2021-03-07, 19:13:

darry; I forgot to mention that I am also researching EDID emulators after reading your posts.

Look here for a potential candidate Re: Windows XP Broken EDID/Scaling, Forcing Resolutions? and the linked thread for cde's DIY approach .

Reply 25 of 43, by shamino

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darry wrote on 2021-03-07, 01:58:

The 252B9 has a 70Hz capable IPS panel and there are other modern IPS equipped monitor that handle 70Hz .

My comment about IPS/VA panels re the LP2065 was overly broad in that it didn't consider modern panels, which finally do support faster refresh rates. I don't know much about recent model panels (every monitor I own is over 10 years old) but I'm sure you're right. A few years ago the LCD business decided to start pushing faster refresh rates, and so the industry finally made faster panels. So IPS should be viable with modern monitors if they avoid any other compatibility issues with legacy VGA modes/signaling.

Scythifuge wrote on 2021-03-07, 04:51:

I was testing the LP2065 in DOS with Dune II so that I could mess with the settings, and I believe the info said that it was running at 70Hz. I'll check it again. I bought it because the info on the monitor read that it operated at up to 85Hz, depending on resolution and if the input was analogue. I am using DVI/VGA adapters connected to a Voodoo 3. I will test it again and also compare it to the 19" KDS I found, when it arrives.

What smooth scrolling games would you recommend that I use for testing? I have many games in my collection.

The way they write the specs is tricky. It supports 70Hz input but it converts to 60Hz for display on the panel. The panels in these monitors are rated for a tight range of something like 58-62Hz or so. The monitor's video board keeps the output in that specified range. The same is true for any IPS or VA of the 4:3 era as far as I'm aware, unfortunately.
For Windows machines I love these monitors but if they're given a 70Hz signal then they stutter. A very bothersome example that I ran into was in combat in Star Control 2 (or 1 if you prefer). I found I liked playing that game a lot more on my 1280x1024 TN panel, even though the screen dimensions are wrong. I'm pretty tolerant to aspect ratio but stuttering bothers me.
I don't think I'd notice it as much in 3D, but the only thing like that I think I ran from DOS was a Quake benchmark, which I'm not sure if it even runs 70Hz. I don't think I ran DOOM.
There was some monitor benchmark test that was posted on this forum that included a smooth scrolling test, but I don't remember what it was called or who posted it.

For Voodoo3 Glide games, the softness setting on these monitors might be useful along with the clean scaling of 800x600. I haven't spent quality time with 3dfx but from what I gather on this forum, a softer picture is often preferred due to how 3dfx filtered the image.

I had wanted a 1600x1200 for years and had no luck finding one that worked at any thrift store. Finally I bought an LP2065 on eBay. Soon as I did that the local thrifts started raining LP2065s. So I have 4-5 of them now, plus a pair of similar Dells with AV inputs (which I haven't used as much as I thought I would).
It's way too many, but when a drought is followed by rain, there's a tendency to hoard. 😀 I hope to be able to run up to 3 of them for the rest of my life. So there you go, it's rational.

Reply 26 of 43, by Scythifuge

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shamino wrote on 2021-03-08, 10:50:
My comment about IPS/VA panels re the LP2065 was overly broad in that it didn't consider modern panels, which finally do support […]
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darry wrote on 2021-03-07, 01:58:

The 252B9 has a 70Hz capable IPS panel and there are other modern IPS equipped monitor that handle 70Hz .

My comment about IPS/VA panels re the LP2065 was overly broad in that it didn't consider modern panels, which finally do support faster refresh rates. I don't know much about recent model panels (every monitor I own is over 10 years old) but I'm sure you're right. A few years ago the LCD business decided to start pushing faster refresh rates, and so the industry finally made faster panels. So IPS should be viable with modern monitors if they avoid any other compatibility issues with legacy VGA modes/signaling.

Scythifuge wrote on 2021-03-07, 04:51:

I was testing the LP2065 in DOS with Dune II so that I could mess with the settings, and I believe the info said that it was running at 70Hz. I'll check it again. I bought it because the info on the monitor read that it operated at up to 85Hz, depending on resolution and if the input was analogue. I am using DVI/VGA adapters connected to a Voodoo 3. I will test it again and also compare it to the 19" KDS I found, when it arrives.

What smooth scrolling games would you recommend that I use for testing? I have many games in my collection.

The way they write the specs is tricky. It supports 70Hz input but it converts to 60Hz for display on the panel. The panels in these monitors are rated for a tight range of something like 58-62Hz or so. The monitor's video board keeps the output in that specified range. The same is true for any IPS or VA of the 4:3 era as far as I'm aware, unfortunately.
For Windows machines I love these monitors but if they're given a 70Hz signal then they stutter. A very bothersome example that I ran into was in combat in Star Control 2 (or 1 if you prefer). I found I liked playing that game a lot more on my 1280x1024 TN panel, even though the screen dimensions are wrong. I'm pretty tolerant to aspect ratio but stuttering bothers me.
I don't think I'd notice it as much in 3D, but the only thing like that I think I ran from DOS was a Quake benchmark, which I'm not sure if it even runs 70Hz. I don't think I ran DOOM.
There was some monitor benchmark test that was posted on this forum that included a smooth scrolling test, but I don't remember what it was called or who posted it.

For Voodoo3 Glide games, the softness setting on these monitors might be useful along with the clean scaling of 800x600. I haven't spent quality time with 3dfx but from what I gather on this forum, a softer picture is often preferred due to how 3dfx filtered the image.

I had wanted a 1600x1200 for years and had no luck finding one that worked at any thrift store. Finally I bought an LP2065 on eBay. Soon as I did that the local thrifts started raining LP2065s. So I have 4-5 of them now, plus a pair of similar Dells with AV inputs (which I haven't used as much as I thought I would).
It's way too many, but when a drought is followed by rain, there's a tendency to hoard. 😀 I hope to be able to run up to 3 of them for the rest of my life. So there you go, it's rational.

With my recent luck in finding a brand new-in-the-box 19" KDS and a retro desk and hutch, I will probably use that for my 486 and Pentium 60 builds, and probably the Ultimate 3dfx/Sound Blaster p3 box, and use the LP2065 for my WinXP/AthlonXP box. I may use a VGA splitter box for the P3 so that I can easily switch, using the 2nds DVI port on the HP.

I is frustrating and annoying that when the industry abandoned CRTs, they also abandoned emulating CRT capabilities, assuming that everyone would just stop using VGA 70Hz displays and that no one would play MS-DOS games anymore. Another thing that I find to be frustrating is that new monitors are abandoning legacy support, despite the fact that retro games have made a comeback and that sales of MS-DOS games on GOG and Steam are really good, and that there are thousands upon thousands of internet posts where people are asking for help to get their old games running and looking good. It can't be too difficult to add a decent 320x200 scaling mode at 70Hz and display it 4:3 on these damn new monitors. Someday, the KDS will also die, so unless microLED or other technologies I am looking into can support retro games at an affordable price, the future for me will be the thousands of projectors to choose from on ebay, 🤣...

Reply 27 of 43, by darry

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Scythifuge wrote on 2021-03-09, 16:38:
shamino wrote on 2021-03-08, 10:50:
My comment about IPS/VA panels re the LP2065 was overly broad in that it didn't consider modern panels, which finally do support […]
Show full quote
darry wrote on 2021-03-07, 01:58:

The 252B9 has a 70Hz capable IPS panel and there are other modern IPS equipped monitor that handle 70Hz .

My comment about IPS/VA panels re the LP2065 was overly broad in that it didn't consider modern panels, which finally do support faster refresh rates. I don't know much about recent model panels (every monitor I own is over 10 years old) but I'm sure you're right. A few years ago the LCD business decided to start pushing faster refresh rates, and so the industry finally made faster panels. So IPS should be viable with modern monitors if they avoid any other compatibility issues with legacy VGA modes/signaling.

Scythifuge wrote on 2021-03-07, 04:51:

I was testing the LP2065 in DOS with Dune II so that I could mess with the settings, and I believe the info said that it was running at 70Hz. I'll check it again. I bought it because the info on the monitor read that it operated at up to 85Hz, depending on resolution and if the input was analogue. I am using DVI/VGA adapters connected to a Voodoo 3. I will test it again and also compare it to the 19" KDS I found, when it arrives.

What smooth scrolling games would you recommend that I use for testing? I have many games in my collection.

The way they write the specs is tricky. It supports 70Hz input but it converts to 60Hz for display on the panel. The panels in these monitors are rated for a tight range of something like 58-62Hz or so. The monitor's video board keeps the output in that specified range. The same is true for any IPS or VA of the 4:3 era as far as I'm aware, unfortunately.
For Windows machines I love these monitors but if they're given a 70Hz signal then they stutter. A very bothersome example that I ran into was in combat in Star Control 2 (or 1 if you prefer). I found I liked playing that game a lot more on my 1280x1024 TN panel, even though the screen dimensions are wrong. I'm pretty tolerant to aspect ratio but stuttering bothers me.
I don't think I'd notice it as much in 3D, but the only thing like that I think I ran from DOS was a Quake benchmark, which I'm not sure if it even runs 70Hz. I don't think I ran DOOM.
There was some monitor benchmark test that was posted on this forum that included a smooth scrolling test, but I don't remember what it was called or who posted it.

For Voodoo3 Glide games, the softness setting on these monitors might be useful along with the clean scaling of 800x600. I haven't spent quality time with 3dfx but from what I gather on this forum, a softer picture is often preferred due to how 3dfx filtered the image.

I had wanted a 1600x1200 for years and had no luck finding one that worked at any thrift store. Finally I bought an LP2065 on eBay. Soon as I did that the local thrifts started raining LP2065s. So I have 4-5 of them now, plus a pair of similar Dells with AV inputs (which I haven't used as much as I thought I would).
It's way too many, but when a drought is followed by rain, there's a tendency to hoard. 😀 I hope to be able to run up to 3 of them for the rest of my life. So there you go, it's rational.

With my recent luck in finding a brand new-in-the-box 19" KDS and a retro desk and hutch, I will probably use that for my 486 and Pentium 60 builds, and probably the Ultimate 3dfx/Sound Blaster p3 box, and use the LP2065 for my WinXP/AthlonXP box. I may use a VGA splitter box for the P3 so that I can easily switch, using the 2nds DVI port on the HP.

I is frustrating and annoying that when the industry abandoned CRTs, they also abandoned emulating CRT capabilities, assuming that everyone would just stop using VGA 70Hz displays and that no one would play MS-DOS games anymore. Another thing that I find to be frustrating is that new monitors are abandoning legacy support, despite the fact that retro games have made a comeback and that sales of MS-DOS games on GOG and Steam are really good, and that there are thousands upon thousands of internet posts where people are asking for help to get their old games running and looking good. It can't be too difficult to add a decent 320x200 scaling mode at 70Hz and display it 4:3 on these damn new monitors. Someday, the KDS will also die, so unless microLED or other technologies I am looking into can support retro games at an affordable price, the future for me will be the thousands of projectors to choose from on ebay, 🤣...

IMHO, since 320x200@70Hz was already line doubled to 640x400@70Hz by the VGA card itself, it looked sharp and blocky on a decently sharp (good focus, small dot pitch) VGA monitor in the 80s and 90s . Having this mode integer scaled (line doubled) further using an OSSC, on a comparatively huge modern 70Hz capable LCD (non frameskipping) is, again IMHO, the "spiritual successor" to that look .

Many will agree, many others will disagree .

Just my two cents .

LI am not t a fan of projectors because of the cost of consumables and the heat they generate.

Reply 28 of 43, by mothergoose729

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darry wrote on 2021-03-09, 23:24:
IMHO, since 320x200@70Hz was already line doubled to 640x400@70Hz by the VGA card itself, it looked sharp and blocky on a decen […]
Show full quote
Scythifuge wrote on 2021-03-09, 16:38:
shamino wrote on 2021-03-08, 10:50:
My comment about IPS/VA panels re the LP2065 was overly broad in that it didn't consider modern panels, which finally do support […]
Show full quote

My comment about IPS/VA panels re the LP2065 was overly broad in that it didn't consider modern panels, which finally do support faster refresh rates. I don't know much about recent model panels (every monitor I own is over 10 years old) but I'm sure you're right. A few years ago the LCD business decided to start pushing faster refresh rates, and so the industry finally made faster panels. So IPS should be viable with modern monitors if they avoid any other compatibility issues with legacy VGA modes/signaling.

The way they write the specs is tricky. It supports 70Hz input but it converts to 60Hz for display on the panel. The panels in these monitors are rated for a tight range of something like 58-62Hz or so. The monitor's video board keeps the output in that specified range. The same is true for any IPS or VA of the 4:3 era as far as I'm aware, unfortunately.
For Windows machines I love these monitors but if they're given a 70Hz signal then they stutter. A very bothersome example that I ran into was in combat in Star Control 2 (or 1 if you prefer). I found I liked playing that game a lot more on my 1280x1024 TN panel, even though the screen dimensions are wrong. I'm pretty tolerant to aspect ratio but stuttering bothers me.
I don't think I'd notice it as much in 3D, but the only thing like that I think I ran from DOS was a Quake benchmark, which I'm not sure if it even runs 70Hz. I don't think I ran DOOM.
There was some monitor benchmark test that was posted on this forum that included a smooth scrolling test, but I don't remember what it was called or who posted it.

For Voodoo3 Glide games, the softness setting on these monitors might be useful along with the clean scaling of 800x600. I haven't spent quality time with 3dfx but from what I gather on this forum, a softer picture is often preferred due to how 3dfx filtered the image.

I had wanted a 1600x1200 for years and had no luck finding one that worked at any thrift store. Finally I bought an LP2065 on eBay. Soon as I did that the local thrifts started raining LP2065s. So I have 4-5 of them now, plus a pair of similar Dells with AV inputs (which I haven't used as much as I thought I would).
It's way too many, but when a drought is followed by rain, there's a tendency to hoard. 😀 I hope to be able to run up to 3 of them for the rest of my life. So there you go, it's rational.

With my recent luck in finding a brand new-in-the-box 19" KDS and a retro desk and hutch, I will probably use that for my 486 and Pentium 60 builds, and probably the Ultimate 3dfx/Sound Blaster p3 box, and use the LP2065 for my WinXP/AthlonXP box. I may use a VGA splitter box for the P3 so that I can easily switch, using the 2nds DVI port on the HP.

I is frustrating and annoying that when the industry abandoned CRTs, they also abandoned emulating CRT capabilities, assuming that everyone would just stop using VGA 70Hz displays and that no one would play MS-DOS games anymore. Another thing that I find to be frustrating is that new monitors are abandoning legacy support, despite the fact that retro games have made a comeback and that sales of MS-DOS games on GOG and Steam are really good, and that there are thousands upon thousands of internet posts where people are asking for help to get their old games running and looking good. It can't be too difficult to add a decent 320x200 scaling mode at 70Hz and display it 4:3 on these damn new monitors. Someday, the KDS will also die, so unless microLED or other technologies I am looking into can support retro games at an affordable price, the future for me will be the thousands of projectors to choose from on ebay, 🤣...

IMHO, since 320x200@70Hz was already line doubled to 640x400@70Hz by the VGA card itself, it looked sharp and blocky on a decently sharp (good focus, small dot pitch) VGA monitor in the 80s and 90s . Having this mode integer scaled (line doubled) further using an OSSC, on a comparatively huge modern 70Hz capable LCD (non frameskipping) is, again IMHO, the "spiritual successor" to that look .

Many will agree, many others will disagree .

Just my two cents .

LI am not t a fan of projectors because of the cost of consumables and the heat they generate.

Pixelated is very much authentic for DOS VGA IMO. If anything, CRT monitors are sharper than emulation because of the lack of filtering.

It is worth noting that a lot of DOS games don't actually run at 70hz, more like 15, 23, or 35fps with a 70hz vertical refresh rate.

Reply 29 of 43, by darry

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mothergoose729 wrote on 2021-03-09, 23:41:
darry wrote on 2021-03-09, 23:24:
IMHO, since 320x200@70Hz was already line doubled to 640x400@70Hz by the VGA card itself, it looked sharp and blocky on a decen […]
Show full quote
Scythifuge wrote on 2021-03-09, 16:38:

With my recent luck in finding a brand new-in-the-box 19" KDS and a retro desk and hutch, I will probably use that for my 486 and Pentium 60 builds, and probably the Ultimate 3dfx/Sound Blaster p3 box, and use the LP2065 for my WinXP/AthlonXP box. I may use a VGA splitter box for the P3 so that I can easily switch, using the 2nds DVI port on the HP.

I is frustrating and annoying that when the industry abandoned CRTs, they also abandoned emulating CRT capabilities, assuming that everyone would just stop using VGA 70Hz displays and that no one would play MS-DOS games anymore. Another thing that I find to be frustrating is that new monitors are abandoning legacy support, despite the fact that retro games have made a comeback and that sales of MS-DOS games on GOG and Steam are really good, and that there are thousands upon thousands of internet posts where people are asking for help to get their old games running and looking good. It can't be too difficult to add a decent 320x200 scaling mode at 70Hz and display it 4:3 on these damn new monitors. Someday, the KDS will also die, so unless microLED or other technologies I am looking into can support retro games at an affordable price, the future for me will be the thousands of projectors to choose from on ebay, 🤣...

IMHO, since 320x200@70Hz was already line doubled to 640x400@70Hz by the VGA card itself, it looked sharp and blocky on a decently sharp (good focus, small dot pitch) VGA monitor in the 80s and 90s . Having this mode integer scaled (line doubled) further using an OSSC, on a comparatively huge modern 70Hz capable LCD (non frameskipping) is, again IMHO, the "spiritual successor" to that look .

Many will agree, many others will disagree .

Just my two cents .

LI am not t a fan of projectors because of the cost of consumables and the heat they generate.

Pixelated is very much authentic for DOS VGA IMO. If anything, CRT monitors are sharper than emulation because of the lack of filtering.

It is worth noting that a lot of DOS games don't actually run at 70hz, more like 15, 23, or 35fps with a 70hz vertical refresh rate.

Integer scaling without filtering is possible with emulation on modern platforms too (with the scaling being done either by the emulator, the video card , or both) for the utmost in sharpness and pixelation . Emulated or not, pure integer scaling on a 1600x1200 native LCD whose native resolution is a multiple of of 320x200 is the ultimate in sharpness . Using a 1920x1200 monitor as a 1600x1200 one gives the same effect with part of the display area going unused .

As for games that do not run at 70Hz or something that can be frame multiplied to 70Hz, I honestly don't know whether a CRT or an LCD makes them look better . Either will display tearing during horizomtal movent in such a scenario, unless the game implements some kind of "pulldown" in software and I doubt any of those bother to do that .

Reply 30 of 43, by mothergoose729

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Screen tearing always feels less noticeable on a CRT. Probably because the CRT gun is firing as the frame buffer is being updated. LCD monitors have the hold pattern so it is a little different.

Probably the best way to play is with freesync or gsync and emulation. Best of all worlds.

Reply 31 of 43, by darry

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mothergoose729 wrote on 2021-03-10, 00:09:

Screen tearing always feels less noticeable on a CRT. Probably because the CRT gun is firing as the frame buffer is being updated. LCD monitors have the hold pattern so it is a little different.

Probably the best way to play is with freesync or gsync and emulation. Best of all worlds.

I could be wrong, but won't gsync or freesync actual only sync to the refresh rate of the emulated VGA framebuffer output (70Hz , 60Hz or whatever the emulated video mode is set to) when using an emulator, and not to the internal refresh rate of the game ?

Reply 32 of 43, by mothergoose729

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darry wrote on 2021-03-10, 00:24:
mothergoose729 wrote on 2021-03-10, 00:09:

Screen tearing always feels less noticeable on a CRT. Probably because the CRT gun is firing as the frame buffer is being updated. LCD monitors have the hold pattern so it is a little different.

Probably the best way to play is with freesync or gsync and emulation. Best of all worlds.

I could be wrong, but won't gsync or freesync actual only sync to the refresh rate of the emulated VGA framebuffer output (70Hz , 60Hz or whatever the emulated video mode is set to) when using an emulator, and not to the internal refresh rate of the game ?

It will sync to the emulator, which I have seen sometimes stay constant at 60 or 70 fps, or sometimes only update when the emulated framebuffer updates. DOSBOX is in the latter category, I have seen PCem do the former sometimes depending on the selected renderer (opengl 3.0 I think but I would have to test it again).

EDIT: nevermind, I am pretty sure what I saw with PCem was because the emulated voodoo 2 had vsync enabled. I should try it with vsync disabled.

Reply 33 of 43, by Scythifuge

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darry wrote on 2021-03-09, 23:24:
IMHO, since 320x200@70Hz was already line doubled to 640x400@70Hz by the VGA card itself, it looked sharp and blocky on a decen […]
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Scythifuge wrote on 2021-03-09, 16:38:
shamino wrote on 2021-03-08, 10:50:
My comment about IPS/VA panels re the LP2065 was overly broad in that it didn't consider modern panels, which finally do support […]
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My comment about IPS/VA panels re the LP2065 was overly broad in that it didn't consider modern panels, which finally do support faster refresh rates. I don't know much about recent model panels (every monitor I own is over 10 years old) but I'm sure you're right. A few years ago the LCD business decided to start pushing faster refresh rates, and so the industry finally made faster panels. So IPS should be viable with modern monitors if they avoid any other compatibility issues with legacy VGA modes/signaling.

The way they write the specs is tricky. It supports 70Hz input but it converts to 60Hz for display on the panel. The panels in these monitors are rated for a tight range of something like 58-62Hz or so. The monitor's video board keeps the output in that specified range. The same is true for any IPS or VA of the 4:3 era as far as I'm aware, unfortunately.
For Windows machines I love these monitors but if they're given a 70Hz signal then they stutter. A very bothersome example that I ran into was in combat in Star Control 2 (or 1 if you prefer). I found I liked playing that game a lot more on my 1280x1024 TN panel, even though the screen dimensions are wrong. I'm pretty tolerant to aspect ratio but stuttering bothers me.
I don't think I'd notice it as much in 3D, but the only thing like that I think I ran from DOS was a Quake benchmark, which I'm not sure if it even runs 70Hz. I don't think I ran DOOM.
There was some monitor benchmark test that was posted on this forum that included a smooth scrolling test, but I don't remember what it was called or who posted it.

For Voodoo3 Glide games, the softness setting on these monitors might be useful along with the clean scaling of 800x600. I haven't spent quality time with 3dfx but from what I gather on this forum, a softer picture is often preferred due to how 3dfx filtered the image.

I had wanted a 1600x1200 for years and had no luck finding one that worked at any thrift store. Finally I bought an LP2065 on eBay. Soon as I did that the local thrifts started raining LP2065s. So I have 4-5 of them now, plus a pair of similar Dells with AV inputs (which I haven't used as much as I thought I would).
It's way too many, but when a drought is followed by rain, there's a tendency to hoard. 😀 I hope to be able to run up to 3 of them for the rest of my life. So there you go, it's rational.

With my recent luck in finding a brand new-in-the-box 19" KDS and a retro desk and hutch, I will probably use that for my 486 and Pentium 60 builds, and probably the Ultimate 3dfx/Sound Blaster p3 box, and use the LP2065 for my WinXP/AthlonXP box. I may use a VGA splitter box for the P3 so that I can easily switch, using the 2nds DVI port on the HP.

I is frustrating and annoying that when the industry abandoned CRTs, they also abandoned emulating CRT capabilities, assuming that everyone would just stop using VGA 70Hz displays and that no one would play MS-DOS games anymore. Another thing that I find to be frustrating is that new monitors are abandoning legacy support, despite the fact that retro games have made a comeback and that sales of MS-DOS games on GOG and Steam are really good, and that there are thousands upon thousands of internet posts where people are asking for help to get their old games running and looking good. It can't be too difficult to add a decent 320x200 scaling mode at 70Hz and display it 4:3 on these damn new monitors. Someday, the KDS will also die, so unless microLED or other technologies I am looking into can support retro games at an affordable price, the future for me will be the thousands of projectors to choose from on ebay, 🤣...

IMHO, since 320x200@70Hz was already line doubled to 640x400@70Hz by the VGA card itself, it looked sharp and blocky on a decently sharp (good focus, small dot pitch) VGA monitor in the 80s and 90s . Having this mode integer scaled (line doubled) further using an OSSC, on a comparatively huge modern 70Hz capable LCD (non frameskipping) is, again IMHO, the "spiritual successor" to that look .

Many will agree, many others will disagree .

Just my two cents .

LI am not t a fan of projectors because of the cost of consumables and the heat they generate.

I am going to also look into gaming monitors for the Hz values, though what would be sweet is a large screen display like a TV that could do 70Hz. I will get the OSSC Pro some day, though I think my main display (and last TCL I will ever buy) is locked at 60Hz. I read about other display technologies that exist that use phosphor but are flat and use less energy than LCDs, though the LCD market dominates, so we can't get them, yet. I understand about why you don't like projectors. The cost of replacement bulbs is a factor I look at. There are LED projectors that I believe produce less heat. It will be a while before I buy one; probably a model from the early to mid 2000's.

Reply 34 of 43, by Scythifuge

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mothergoose729 wrote on 2021-03-10, 00:09:

Probably the best way to play is with freesync or gsync and emulation. Best of all worlds.

Cost is the reason why I haven't gone with a freesync or gsync monitor yet, only because if I buy one, I want a very large display.

Reply 35 of 43, by darry

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Scythifuge wrote on 2021-03-10, 02:25:
darry wrote on 2021-03-09, 23:24:
IMHO, since 320x200@70Hz was already line doubled to 640x400@70Hz by the VGA card itself, it looked sharp and blocky on a decen […]
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Scythifuge wrote on 2021-03-09, 16:38:

With my recent luck in finding a brand new-in-the-box 19" KDS and a retro desk and hutch, I will probably use that for my 486 and Pentium 60 builds, and probably the Ultimate 3dfx/Sound Blaster p3 box, and use the LP2065 for my WinXP/AthlonXP box. I may use a VGA splitter box for the P3 so that I can easily switch, using the 2nds DVI port on the HP.

I is frustrating and annoying that when the industry abandoned CRTs, they also abandoned emulating CRT capabilities, assuming that everyone would just stop using VGA 70Hz displays and that no one would play MS-DOS games anymore. Another thing that I find to be frustrating is that new monitors are abandoning legacy support, despite the fact that retro games have made a comeback and that sales of MS-DOS games on GOG and Steam are really good, and that there are thousands upon thousands of internet posts where people are asking for help to get their old games running and looking good. It can't be too difficult to add a decent 320x200 scaling mode at 70Hz and display it 4:3 on these damn new monitors. Someday, the KDS will also die, so unless microLED or other technologies I am looking into can support retro games at an affordable price, the future for me will be the thousands of projectors to choose from on ebay, 🤣...

IMHO, since 320x200@70Hz was already line doubled to 640x400@70Hz by the VGA card itself, it looked sharp and blocky on a decently sharp (good focus, small dot pitch) VGA monitor in the 80s and 90s . Having this mode integer scaled (line doubled) further using an OSSC, on a comparatively huge modern 70Hz capable LCD (non frameskipping) is, again IMHO, the "spiritual successor" to that look .

Many will agree, many others will disagree .

Just my two cents .

LI am not t a fan of projectors because of the cost of consumables and the heat they generate.

I am going to also look into gaming monitors for the Hz values, though what would be sweet is a large screen display like a TV that could do 70Hz. I will get the OSSC Pro some day, though I think my main display (and last TCL I will ever buy) is locked at 60Hz. I read about other display technologies that exist that use phosphor but are flat and use less energy than LCDs, though the LCD market dominates, so we can't get them, yet. I understand about why you don't like projectors. The cost of replacement bulbs is a factor I look at. There are LED projectors that I believe produce less heat. It will be a while before I buy one; probably a model from the early to mid 2000's.

I will also consider OSSC Pro once it comes out . It won't be cheap, so it might not be an insta-buy for me . I would hazard to guess that TVs that can accept 120Hz input over HDMI (not the ones with misleading marketing spiel about 120Hz "equivalence", but that are actually only 60Hz on the input front) would likely have a higher chance of not only accepting but also properly displaying 70Hz .

Reply 36 of 43, by darry

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Scythifuge wrote on 2021-03-10, 02:27:
mothergoose729 wrote on 2021-03-10, 00:09:

Probably the best way to play is with freesync or gsync and emulation. Best of all worlds.

Cost is the reason why I haven't gone with a freesync or gsync monitor yet, only because if I buy one, I want a very large display.

I understand . I settled for the 252B9 as a compromise of sorts . It does support FreeSync/VESA Adaptive sync up to 75Hz and is 25 inches diagonally, so the active picture area when displaying a 4:3 resolution (up to and including 1600x1200) is a bit larger than that of a 20-inch 4:3 LCD monitor .

The way I see it (no pun intended), in legacy 80s to 90s terms, a 20 or 21-inch monitor was practically the holy grail (unless you had money to burn), so I find that to be great for a nice and cozy retro experience . I have a C64 mini which I currently use on a 55-inch TV, but I might switch to a smaller monitor for that coziness factor .

As a side note, in 2001, I owned a 19" CRT (Viewsonic P95F, not the oddly named, newer and cheaper P95F+) that cost nearly a grand ( CAN$ including 15% sales tax) AFAICR when I purchased it . That's about 1400 CAN$ in today's money .

Reply 37 of 43, by mothergoose729

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darry wrote on 2021-03-10, 02:30:
Scythifuge wrote on 2021-03-10, 02:25:
darry wrote on 2021-03-09, 23:24:
IMHO, since 320x200@70Hz was already line doubled to 640x400@70Hz by the VGA card itself, it looked sharp and blocky on a decen […]
Show full quote

IMHO, since 320x200@70Hz was already line doubled to 640x400@70Hz by the VGA card itself, it looked sharp and blocky on a decently sharp (good focus, small dot pitch) VGA monitor in the 80s and 90s . Having this mode integer scaled (line doubled) further using an OSSC, on a comparatively huge modern 70Hz capable LCD (non frameskipping) is, again IMHO, the "spiritual successor" to that look .

Many will agree, many others will disagree .

Just my two cents .

LI am not t a fan of projectors because of the cost of consumables and the heat they generate.

I am going to also look into gaming monitors for the Hz values, though what would be sweet is a large screen display like a TV that could do 70Hz. I will get the OSSC Pro some day, though I think my main display (and last TCL I will ever buy) is locked at 60Hz. I read about other display technologies that exist that use phosphor but are flat and use less energy than LCDs, though the LCD market dominates, so we can't get them, yet. I understand about why you don't like projectors. The cost of replacement bulbs is a factor I look at. There are LED projectors that I believe produce less heat. It will be a while before I buy one; probably a model from the early to mid 2000's.

I will also consider OSSC Pro once it comes out . It won't be cheap, so it might not be an insta-buy for me . I would hazard to guess that TVs that can accept 120Hz input over HDMI (not the ones with misleading marketing spiel about 120Hz "equivalence", but that are actually only 60Hz on the input front) would likely have a higher chance of not only accepting but also properly displaying 70Hz .

I would be surprised if an HDTV just slowed down to 70hz. My guess is it would either fit it in 60hz or 120hz frame time, or just throw a fit and not display it at all.

Reply 38 of 43, by darry

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mothergoose729 wrote on 2021-03-10, 03:41:
darry wrote on 2021-03-10, 02:30:
Scythifuge wrote on 2021-03-10, 02:25:

I am going to also look into gaming monitors for the Hz values, though what would be sweet is a large screen display like a TV that could do 70Hz. I will get the OSSC Pro some day, though I think my main display (and last TCL I will ever buy) is locked at 60Hz. I read about other display technologies that exist that use phosphor but are flat and use less energy than LCDs, though the LCD market dominates, so we can't get them, yet. I understand about why you don't like projectors. The cost of replacement bulbs is a factor I look at. There are LED projectors that I believe produce less heat. It will be a while before I buy one; probably a model from the early to mid 2000's.

I will also consider OSSC Pro once it comes out . It won't be cheap, so it might not be an insta-buy for me . I would hazard to guess that TVs that can accept 120Hz input over HDMI (not the ones with misleading marketing spiel about 120Hz "equivalence", but that are actually only 60Hz on the input front) would likely have a higher chance of not only accepting but also properly displaying 70Hz .

I would be surprised if an HDTV just slowed down to 70hz. My guess is it would either fit it in 60hz or 120hz frame time, or just throw a fit and not display it at all.

That's definitely one possible outcome . Too bad manufacturers don't usually publish detailed supported scanning rates for TVs like they do for monitors .

For the fun of it, I tried feeding my Samsung RU7100 4K 60Hz TV a 1280x800@70Hz signal from my Voodoo3 through my OSSC and both 1280x800@70Hz and 1920x1080@70Hz (custom resolutions ) signals from a GTX750Ti under Windows . I used HDMI input in all cases .

The good news : the TV displays an uncorrupted image image .
The bad news : there is frameskip at anything above 60Hz .
The odd news : with a 1280x800@70Hz signal from my Voodoo3 through my OSSC, the frameskip did not seem as apparent as it typically is when a monitor does frameskip when receiving 70Hz even though it wasn't as smooth as with real 35FPS displayed at an actual 70Hz . Frmeskip is very obvious with vsynctester.com . Maybe I'm just tired, and the Doom test was not run at an optimum viewing angle, so please take that subjective opinion with a grain of salt .

Reply 39 of 43, by digistorm

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I noticed with captures of demo scene productions that the motion compensation techniques of my tv are sometimes very capable of hiding / filling in the gaps of the inevitable stutters that most captures of MS-DOS demos have. It depends on the actually achieved frame rates and the kind of movement. Pure 70fps scrolls usually remain ugly. That would also be the ultimate test for any display setup. There are tons of demos and cracktros that use those large scrolling texts that look crap on anything that is not 70 FPS.