VOGONS


First post, by Scythifuge

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Greetings,

Trying to find the right video display option for MS-DOS/Windows 3.x/Windows 9x VGA/SVGA/3D computers is becoming a challenge. I have a Gateway 19" CRT that is dim with the brightness turned up all of the way, and I read that maybe there is a knob inside that I can change in order to fix that. However, how long will that last? Buying a 19" or bigger CRT is an expensive choice these days.

Newer LCD TVs and monitors are no longer a solution. The first couple LCD TVs I bought had VGA ports and displayed video in 4:3 and worked rather well. Some games didn't work if they had weird resolutions (Dune 2000,) but they worked for me above 90% of the time. My current TCL has great colors and supports 4k. However, it will only display in 4:3 if the picture is 640x480 and up. MS-DOS text mode and VGA games stretch, regardless of the settings. My previous 4k TCL displayed text mode and VGA in 4:3, but part of the picture is cut off and there is no way to adjust (and the color engine leaves little to be desired.)

To make a long story short, I am seeking a solution that supports perfect 4:3 aspect ratio at 70Hz and with accurate, vivid colors and deep blacks. A decent contrast ratio would be nice, if possible. There is the O.S.S.C., though it doesn't change the Hz, and I don't know what a decent alternative would be that is affordable and available. I have been looking at projectors, especially ultra short throws. Many still include a VGA port and support 4:3 A.R. The problem is that there are so many to choose from and no way to test before purchasing. They always boast about the large screen size, but rarely is the smallest possible screen size discussed, and it needs to be affordable to maintain it in order to get as many years out of it as I can.

Does anyone have any recommendations for a solution? I love being able to play ms-dos games on a giant screen, though I would like to be able to shrink the picture down to 19-30 inches in order to get closer to an old school monitor/tv size for desk use (such as using an old-school desk with hutch and set up a screen at the back of the monitor portion of the hutch,) have it be a short throw in order to avoid picture issues as what happens when people walk in front of a projector, have a VGA port, and support games and apps which require 70Hz. In lieu of a projector, I am open to any modern monitor/TV/scan converter solution if it can meet my requirements. I know hat many of us still play MS-DOS games on a frequent basis while using original hardware (instead of dosbox/86box/pcem,) so what works for everyone?

Many thanks!

Scythifuge

Reply 1 of 43, by kdr

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While I much prefer CRTs, for quick tests on the workbench I use an ancient Dell 15" LCD that's close enough to 4:3 aspect (1280x1024 - 5:4). It's only input port is analogue VGA. It has plenty of adjustments in the on-screen menu for getting the picture to look right and is ancient enough to have been tested with odd VGA modes. The panel is kind of garbage but that just adds to the charm.

Reply 3 of 43, by Scythifuge

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kdr wrote on 2021-03-02, 22:47:

While I much prefer CRTs, for quick tests on the workbench I use an ancient Dell 15" LCD that's close enough to 4:3 aspect (1280x1024 - 5:4). It's only input port is analogue VGA. It has plenty of adjustments in the on-screen menu for getting the picture to look right and is ancient enough to have been tested with odd VGA modes. The panel is kind of garbage but that just adds to the charm.

Thank you. I used to have a similar monitor. I am seeking a size of 19" to 30" though.

Reply 4 of 43, by Scythifuge

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darry wrote on 2021-03-02, 22:57:

I use an OSSC with a Philips 252B9 .

The 252B9 supports 70Hz without frame-skipping and has a true 4:3 mode .

I will probably end up with an OSSC. I have to check the specs on this tv, though I have a feeling it is stuck at 60Hz. I would be able to use the OSSC for my retro consoles, and that would be a plus.

I do want to try a projector at some point, because of the scaling screen size. Viewsonic has a web page where you can select models and plot out the minimum and maximum screen size and it will also tell you hw many inches away the projector needs to be. I found it after my initial post. They have models that support 4:3 with a minimum of 30" from about 17 inches away, so it could go on a desk in front of a keyboard and projected through the opening in a hutch, onto a 30" square.

Reply 5 of 43, by megatron-uk

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A lot of the wide-screen Dell Ultrasharp models with VGA input have an aspect ratio menu item to go from 4:3, fill or 16:9 (or 16:10).

My collection database and technical wiki:
https://www.target-earth.net

Reply 6 of 43, by cde

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Another advantage of the OSSC is that you can set it to sample the VGA input as 640x400. This fixes the issue that all LCDs sample VGA as 720x400 and you end up with duplicated pixels when 320x200 games are played: Re: Widescreen monitors and 4:3 aspect ratio compatibility thread
The OSSC also offers a line doubling mode which is great if your monitor has a 1:1 mode (no stretching at all) like the AOC 2590PX. This way you get a pixel perfect doubled 640x480 to 1280x960: Re: Widescreen monitors and 4:3 aspect ratio compatibility thread

Reply 7 of 43, by megatron-uk

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I would second the ossc. If you have a native 1200 line display (like some Dell Ultrasharp models) you can also do line tripling of 640x400.

It really does give you the best possible output options on whatever modern display you've got.

My collection database and technical wiki:
https://www.target-earth.net

Reply 8 of 43, by The Serpent Rider

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The 252B9 supports 70Hz without frame-skipping and has a true 4:3 mode .

Sounds interesting. On all ports?

I must be some kind of standard: the anonymous gangbanger of the 21st century.

Reply 9 of 43, by darry

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The Serpent Rider wrote on 2021-03-03, 15:36:

The 252B9 supports 70Hz without frame-skipping and has a true 4:3 mode .

Sounds interesting. On all ports?

If you mean 70Hz :
On HDMI, yes .
I don't remember for VGA, but it treats 640x400 as 720x400 over that interface, so I never tested it much . I mean, it accepts 70Hz over VGA, but I don't remember if I tested for frameskip .

Reply 10 of 43, by The Serpent Rider

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Most of 60Hz displays accept 70Hz for compatibility reasons, but few can do it without frameskip.

I must be some kind of standard: the anonymous gangbanger of the 21st century.

Reply 11 of 43, by darry

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The Serpent Rider wrote on 2021-03-03, 22:25:

Most of 60Hz displays accept 70Hz for compatibility reasons, but few can do it without frameskip.

As I mentioned before, the 252B9 definitely does not frameskip over DVI/HDMI at least up to 70Hz (at all resolutions I have tried, from 640x400@70Hz up to and including 1600x1200@70Hz)

If knowing if it frameskips over VGA is important to you, I should be able to test that out over the coming week-end, or maybe earlier .

Reply 13 of 43, by Scythifuge

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Sorry; I didn't get notifications for this thread for some reason. I wasn't aware of AOC monitors an d their features, and I will look into those in addition to projector solutions. In the meantime, I bought an HP LP2065 in "A" condition from ebay and I am hoping that I can use it for what I am doing with DOS/Win 3.x/Win9x. I have to look to see if I have my old DVI/VGA adapters handy, or if I need to order some. I read about the HP LP2065 here on Vogons, maybe in the above thread, I'm not sure. I have been doing so much reading on the subject that the info is blurring together. I made an offer on an OSSC, though I haven't heard back yet. Also, I just found out that an OSSC Pro is being developed.

Trying to use real hardware to use DOS and Windows 3.x with proper display is getting tiresome...

Reply 14 of 43, by darry

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The Serpent Rider wrote on 2021-03-04, 02:21:

Did you test frameskip in PixPerAn?

For 70Hz over HDMI/DVI at high resolutions (1600x1200@70Hz), I used vsynctester.com (on a modern machine) and PixPerAn (on a retro machine with a Geforce FX 5900 outputting 1600x1200@70Hz over DVI with custom reduced blanking ).

Additionally, for HDMI at 640x400@70Hz and line doubled 1280x800@70Hz ( when using a PCI Voodoo 3 over OSSC), I used an informal, but AFAICT very effective test of spinning around on myself at Doom 1 spawn point and judging smoothness of movement (even though Doom is locked at 35fps). This has been very effective for me when comparing monitors and has always correlated with actual 70Hz non frameskiping capabilities when using higher resolutions and direct DVI/HDMI connection . My PCI Voodoo 3 does not seeem to refresh the screen consistently enough at even 1600x1200@60Hz (at least in true color) for PixPerAn to work (likely insufficient bandwidth).

I planned on testing a direct VGA connection at 70Hz using an FX 5900 in 640x400@70Hz using the subjective Doom 1 test (I don't feel like trying to coax 1600x1200@70Hz over VGA from an FX 5900) and 1600x1200@70Hz over VGA on a GTX 750Ti on Windows 10 with Vsyntester.com and PixPerAn, assuming the Nvidia drivers lets me set such a resolution over VGA.

Reply 16 of 43, by shamino

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I like the LP2065 but because they are IPS/VA panels they don't do 70Hz. Anything with smooth scrolling at 70Hz will be noticeably jerky. Depending what you play you might be happier with a TN panel.

A 1600x1200 monitor with a TN panel would be interesting for DOS. TN panels will do 70Hz, but they don't have the color quality you desire. I don't think many TN 1600x1200s were ever made, that was a premium resolution and people buying them wanted IPS or VA.
TN panels are usually 1024x768 or 1280x1024, but those resolutions aren't as ideal for scaling.
It's too bad that IPS and VA panels have the frameskipping issue at 70Hz. That makes LCDs in DOS always a compromise vs CRT I'm afraid.

I have a Samsung 943SWX 1360x768 which has a filled 4:3 option. I've seen other Samsungs mentioned with the same feature, so I think it was a standard thing on their widescreen monitors for a while. Maybe it still is.
My Samsung 930B (5:4 1280x1024) does *not* have a 4:3 option though.

Reply 17 of 43, by darry

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shamino wrote on 2021-03-07, 01:39:
I like the LP2065 but because they are IPS/VA panels they don't do 70Hz. Anything with smooth scrolling at 70Hz will be noticea […]
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I like the LP2065 but because they are IPS/VA panels they don't do 70Hz. Anything with smooth scrolling at 70Hz will be noticeably jerky. Depending what you play you might be happier with a TN panel.

A 1600x1200 monitor with a TN panel would be interesting for DOS. TN panels will do 70Hz, but they don't have the color quality you desire. I don't think many TN 1600x1200s were ever made, that was a premium resolution and people buying them wanted IPS or VA.
TN panels are usually 1024x768 or 1280x1024, but those resolutions aren't as ideal for scaling.
It's too bad that IPS and VA panels have the frameskipping issue at 70Hz. That makes LCDs in DOS always a compromise vs CRT I'm afraid.

I have a Samsung 943SWX 1360x768 which has a filled 4:3 option. I've seen other Samsungs mentioned with the same feature, so I think it was a standard thing on their widescreen monitors for a while. Maybe it still is.
My Samsung 930B (5:4 1280x1024) does *not* have a 4:3 option though.

The 252B9 has a 70Hz capable IPS panel and there are other modern IPS equipped monitor that handle 70Hz . When combined with an EDID emulator that exposes 1600x1200 as the native resolution, it essentially effectively becomes a 1600x1200 monitor that happens to have a blank bar on each side of the active image are . Additionally, set it to 4:3 mode and it behaves like a 4:3 1600x1200 monitor at lower resolutions as well . Add an OSSC instead of the EDID emulator, and you get 2x integer scaling of DOS resolutions with the monitor's scaling taking you the rest of the way to 1600x1200, all at 70Hz (when applicable) .

The Acer EB321HQ is unofficially 70Hz capable (BOE IPS panel), but does not have a 4:3 mode . The Acer VW257 is 75Hz capable and has an IPS panel (no 4:3 mode either, though). The LG brand IPS monitors that I use for work are also 70Hz capable (no 4:3 mode either).

No need to settle for TN, IMHO .

EDIT : All of the IPS monitors that I mentioned do not frameskip at 70Hz, as tested with vsynctester.com

Reply 18 of 43, by Scythifuge

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shamino wrote on 2021-03-07, 01:39:
I like the LP2065 but because they are IPS/VA panels they don't do 70Hz. Anything with smooth scrolling at 70Hz will be noticea […]
Show full quote

I like the LP2065 but because they are IPS/VA panels they don't do 70Hz. Anything with smooth scrolling at 70Hz will be noticeably jerky. Depending what you play you might be happier with a TN panel.

A 1600x1200 monitor with a TN panel would be interesting for DOS. TN panels will do 70Hz, but they don't have the color quality you desire. I don't think many TN 1600x1200s were ever made, that was a premium resolution and people buying them wanted IPS or VA.
TN panels are usually 1024x768 or 1280x1024, but those resolutions aren't as ideal for scaling.
It's too bad that IPS and VA panels have the frameskipping issue at 70Hz. That makes LCDs in DOS always a compromise vs CRT I'm afraid.

I have a Samsung 943SWX 1360x768 which has a filled 4:3 option. I've seen other Samsungs mentioned with the same feature, so I think it was a standard thing on their widescreen monitors for a while. Maybe it still is.
My Samsung 930B (5:4 1280x1024) does *not* have a 4:3 option though.

I was testing the LP2065 in DOS with Dune II so that I could mess with the settings, and I believe the info said that it was running at 70Hz. I'll check it again. I bought it because the info on the monitor read that it operated at up to 85Hz, depending on resolution and if the input was analogue. I am using DVI/VGA adapters connected to a Voodoo 3. I will test it again and also compare it to the 19" KDS I found, when it arrives.

What smooth scrolling games would you recommend that I use for testing? I have many games in my collection.

Reply 19 of 43, by darry

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Scythifuge wrote on 2021-03-07, 04:51:
shamino wrote on 2021-03-07, 01:39:
I like the LP2065 but because they are IPS/VA panels they don't do 70Hz. Anything with smooth scrolling at 70Hz will be noticea […]
Show full quote

I like the LP2065 but because they are IPS/VA panels they don't do 70Hz. Anything with smooth scrolling at 70Hz will be noticeably jerky. Depending what you play you might be happier with a TN panel.

A 1600x1200 monitor with a TN panel would be interesting for DOS. TN panels will do 70Hz, but they don't have the color quality you desire. I don't think many TN 1600x1200s were ever made, that was a premium resolution and people buying them wanted IPS or VA.
TN panels are usually 1024x768 or 1280x1024, but those resolutions aren't as ideal for scaling.
It's too bad that IPS and VA panels have the frameskipping issue at 70Hz. That makes LCDs in DOS always a compromise vs CRT I'm afraid.

I have a Samsung 943SWX 1360x768 which has a filled 4:3 option. I've seen other Samsungs mentioned with the same feature, so I think it was a standard thing on their widescreen monitors for a while. Maybe it still is.
My Samsung 930B (5:4 1280x1024) does *not* have a 4:3 option though.

I was testing the LP2065 in DOS with Dune II so that I could mess with the settings, and I believe the info said that it was running at 70Hz. I'll check it again. I bought it because the info on the monitor read that it operated at up to 85Hz, depending on resolution and if the input was analogue. I am using DVI/VGA adapters connected to a Voodoo 3. I will test it again and also compare it to the 19" KDS I found, when it arrives.

What smooth scrolling games would you recommend that I use for testing? I have many games in my collection.

My goto vintage test is starting Doom 1 and spinning on my axis at the spawn point on the first level . Doom may only refresh at 35Hz, but frameskipping (due to 70Hz converted to 60Hz ny the monitor) has been very apparent to me in that informal test . Being able to observe a baseline on a monitor already confirmed as not subject to frameskipping when fed 70Hz makes it easy to see when frameskipping does occur on a given monitor .