Meatball wrote on 2022-03-20, 05:53:

BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2022-03-20, 05:42:

Meatball wrote on 2022-03-20, 05:39:

For 15bit, I’m happy to record if you like. I figured someone would mention if interested. […]
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For 15bit, I’m happy to record if you like. I figured someone would mention if interested.

For Jazz, it was a mistake, thanks for catching it.

For Turok, I don’t understand your request other than to say if I exclude 3D acceleration, I lose most of the reason for putting this list together. The period for 16bit color games is rather small relative to the 8bit - 32bit sandwich it is contained within.

For 4/8 bit, I put that in as a courtesy for all members. You are the 2nd to comment about being too much, and I appreciate the input. I can remove the 4/8bit if nobody wants it. I’ll continue to keep watch.

Was your feedback post in the feedback thread about mega threads a comment about this one?

Why not collect 8 bit Windows games instead? And if exists, 4 bit Windows games too. I agree 8 bit DOS games would be too much, same for 16 bit 3d accelerated games...

I am thinking I am extremely unaware, but are there really that many 3D accelerated games with a bit depth no greater than 16bit relative to 8bit and 24/32bit? The window seems like 4 years - ‘96 / ‘99.

Games from 96/99 should mostly be 16/8 bit as what I observed (some 24 bit too). It'll be too cumbersome to list all of them. Don't underestimate the no of 16 bit 3d accelerated games, you'll keep finding D3D5-6.1 games with this regard. Thus I am of the opinion to keep only 8 bit non 3D games

Meatball wrote on 2022-03-20, 06:02:

If you don’t find it it interesting, what are you doing in this thread?

You'd end up wasting your time listing ALL OF THEM. 24/32bit color support excluding seems silly when they're the least supported in this timeframe...

leileilol wrote on 2022-03-20, 06:13:

Meatball wrote on 2022-03-20, 06:02:

If you don’t find it it interesting, what are you doing in this thread?

You'd end up wasting your time listing ALL OF THEM. 24/32bit color support excluding seems silly when they're the least supported in this timeframe...

I thank you for your concern of my time. If you know all of the games with no greater than 16bit color, share; save me and everyone else in the future our time. If you can’t, I’m happy to do the work. I may not get to every game, but I’m confident others will be happy to contribute to the effort.

You'll be making a pretty long list I feel.

If you are focusing pre-VSA, how bout try to indentify games that support both 16bit and 32bit color but don't benefit from 32bit in any meaningful way? Or try to indentify the games that would otherwise run well with a Voodoo 3 but suffer from lack of support for large textures and look worse compared to other GPU's of the time. Would require much more work than just taking a look what modes the game supports, but things like that I would personally find much more useful.

Sombrero wrote on 2022-03-20, 06:55:

You'll be making a pretty long list I feel.

If you are focusing pre-VSA, how bout try to indentify games that support both 16bit and 32bit color but don't benefit from 32bit in any meaningful way? Or try to indentify the games that would otherwise run well with a Voodoo 3 but suffer from lack of support for large textures and look worse compared to other GPU's of the time. Would require much more work than just taking a look what modes the game supports, but things like that I would personally find much more useful.

If a game supports 32 bit, I’ll find that out in due course. For example, all of the Tomb Raider games support 32bit color mode, except the first one. That excludes them from the list, and from me using an adapter limited to 16bit color. I think the list of 16bit maximum color games is a lot smaller than assumed, and that’s what I’ll find out as I go through my games. The worst case is I have gone through all of my games to put them on the right system. Since I’m going to do this anyway, I thought I would share the results. If no one else cares, I still accomplished what I set out to do.

With that said, all of your suggestions are great. Maybe I can document the large/small texture difference down the line if someone hasn’t done it already. I know Phil makes mention of it in his past retro videos regularly.

I, like liliwhatever, also walked into this thread hoping for a list of non-3d accelerated 16-bit color VESA mode DOS games.

maxtherabbit wrote on 2022-03-20, 13:33:

I, like liliwhatever, also walked into this thread hoping for a list of non-3d accelerated 16-bit color VESA mode DOS games.

I play mostly Windows games. Those type of DOS games would end up on the list during my efforts, but more so because DOS veterans would submit their experiences. Once more, I started this list in an effort to share the work I'm doing. I removed the "DOS" title from the thread for now. I hope this helps.

There are lots of dos game. Many thousands. Dos game with mcga support have all 8 bit color support.

Windows game with 3d acceleration support have 16 bit color support since 1997 until tnt at least have 16 bit support without 24 or 32 bit support.

willow wrote on 2022-03-22, 19:02:

There are lots of dos game. Many thousands. Dos game with mcga support have all 8 bit color support.

Windows game with 3d acceleration support have 16 bit color support since 1997 until tnt at least have 16 bit support without 24 or 32 bit support.

Yes, I know, thanks. But I'm not concerned with games having "at least" 16bit support (or 8bit support). I'm concerned with games not having any greater than 16bit color support. For example, all of the Tomb Raider games support 32bit color mode, except the first one. That excludes them from the list. Blood 2 has a maximum of 16bit color support; this adds the game to the list. Tomb Raider II was released in 1997. Blood 2 was released in 1998. So, there is no exact cut off by year.

Meatball wrote on 2022-03-22, 19:09:

willow wrote on 2022-03-22, 19:02:

There are lots of dos game. Many thousands. Dos game with mcga support have all 8 bit color support.

Windows game with 3d acceleration support have 16 bit color support since 1997 until tnt at least have 16 bit support without 24 or 32 bit support.

Yes, I know, thanks. But I'm not concerned with games having "at least" 16bit support (or 8bit support). I'm concerned with games not having any greater than 16bit color support. For example, all of the Tomb Raider games support 32bit color mode, except the first one. That excludes them from the list. Blood 2 has a maximum of 16bit color support; this adds the game to the list. Tomb Raider II was released in 1997. Blood 2 was released in 1998. So, there is no exact cut off by year.

I am not sure but I don't think that Tomb raider 2 support 32 bits color natively because tnt was not released at the release of tomb raider 2. Tnt was the first 3d card to support 32 bits color mode.

POD, Need for speed 3, Redline racer maximum 16 bits support mode. POD and NFS 3 support also 8 bits color mode.

Screamer 2 and screamer rally are dos game that support 8 bits and 16 bits color mode. Need for speed 1, only 8bits color mode.

Need for speed 2, only 8 bits color mode and 8/16 bits color mode with nfs 2 SE.

I'm concerned with games not having any greater than 16bit color support.

Nearly All pc games before the support of 32 bits color opffered by nvidia tnt1 and other cards with 32bits color support except some games.

willow wrote on 2022-03-22, 20:06:

I am not sure but I don't think that Tomb raider 2 support 32 bits color natively because tnt was not released at the release of […]
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Meatball wrote on 2022-03-22, 19:09:

willow wrote on 2022-03-22, 19:02:

There are lots of dos game. Many thousands. Dos game with mcga support have all 8 bit color support.

Windows game with 3d acceleration support have 16 bit color support since 1997 until tnt at least have 16 bit support without 24 or 32 bit support.

Yes, I know, thanks. But I'm not concerned with games having "at least" 16bit support (or 8bit support). I'm concerned with games not having any greater than 16bit color support. For example, all of the Tomb Raider games support 32bit color mode, except the first one. That excludes them from the list. Blood 2 has a maximum of 16bit color support; this adds the game to the list. Tomb Raider II was released in 1997. Blood 2 was released in 1998. So, there is no exact cut off by year.

I am not sure but I don't think that Tomb raider 2 support 32 bits color natively because tnt was not released at the release of tomb raider 2. Tnt was the first 3d card to support 32 bits color mode.

POD, Need for speed 3, Redline racer maximum 16 bits support mode. POD and NFS 3 support also 8 bits color mode.

Screamer 2 and screamer rally are dos game that support 8 bits and 16 bits color mode. Need for speed 1, only 8bits color mode.

Need for speed 2, only 8 bits color mode and 8/16 bits color mode with nfs 2 SE.

I'm concerned with games not having any greater than 16bit color support.

Nearly All pc games before the support of 32 bits color opffered by nvidia tnt1 and other cards with 32bits color support except some games.

The key word is "nearly." This is the point of this list I am gathering.

I am 100% certain Tomb Raider II supports 32bit color (except the videos). Not only is 32bit color an option in "Setup," but I have validated it through my CRT monitor. The mode changes depending on refresh, color, resolution, or any combination thereof, and I am then notified by the OSD of the results.

I'll add the other games to the list, thanks!!!

Meatball wrote on 2022-03-22, 20:15:

The key word is "nearly." This is the point of this list I am gathering. […]
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willow wrote on 2022-03-22, 20:06:

I am not sure but I don't think that Tomb raider 2 support 32 bits color natively because tnt was not released at the release of […]
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Meatball wrote on 2022-03-22, 19:09:

Yes, I know, thanks. But I'm not concerned with games having "at least" 16bit support (or 8bit support). I'm concerned with games not having any greater than 16bit color support. For example, all of the Tomb Raider games support 32bit color mode, except the first one. That excludes them from the list. Blood 2 has a maximum of 16bit color support; this adds the game to the list. Tomb Raider II was released in 1997. Blood 2 was released in 1998. So, there is no exact cut off by year.

I am not sure but I don't think that Tomb raider 2 support 32 bits color natively because tnt was not released at the release of tomb raider 2. Tnt was the first 3d card to support 32 bits color mode.

POD, Need for speed 3, Redline racer maximum 16 bits support mode. POD and NFS 3 support also 8 bits color mode.

Screamer 2 and screamer rally are dos game that support 8 bits and 16 bits color mode. Need for speed 1, only 8bits color mode.

Need for speed 2, only 8 bits color mode and 8/16 bits color mode with nfs 2 SE.

I'm concerned with games not having any greater than 16bit color support.

Nearly All pc games before the support of 32 bits color opffered by nvidia tnt1 and other cards with 32bits color support except some games.

The key word is "nearly." This is the point of this list I am gathering.

I am 100% certain Tomb Raider II supports 32bit color (except the videos). Not only is 32bit color an option in "Setup," but I have validated it through my CRT monitor. The mode changes depending on refresh, color, resolution, or any combination thereof, and I am then notified by the OSD of the results.

I'll add the other games to the list, thanks!!!

Are you sure for tomb raider 2?
I don't think that software rendering support 32 bits because it would be very demanding. At the release of TR 2, no 3d card supported 32 bits colors for 3d rendering.

willow wrote on 2022-03-22, 20:18:

Meatball wrote on 2022-03-22, 20:15:

The key word is "nearly." This is the point of this list I am gathering. […]
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willow wrote on 2022-03-22, 20:06:

I am not sure but I don't think that Tomb raider 2 support 32 bits color natively because tnt was not released at the release of […]
Show full quote

I am not sure but I don't think that Tomb raider 2 support 32 bits color natively because tnt was not released at the release of tomb raider 2. Tnt was the first 3d card to support 32 bits color mode.

POD, Need for speed 3, Redline racer maximum 16 bits support mode. POD and NFS 3 support also 8 bits color mode.

Screamer 2 and screamer rally are dos game that support 8 bits and 16 bits color mode. Need for speed 1, only 8bits color mode.

Need for speed 2, only 8 bits color mode and 8/16 bits color mode with nfs 2 SE.

Nearly All pc games before the support of 32 bits color opffered by nvidia tnt1 and other cards with 32bits color support except some games.

The key word is "nearly." This is the point of this list I am gathering.

I am 100% certain Tomb Raider II supports 32bit color (except the videos). Not only is 32bit color an option in "Setup," but I have validated it through my CRT monitor. The mode changes depending on refresh, color, resolution, or any combination thereof, and I am then notified by the OSD of the results.

I'll add the other games to the list, thanks!!!

Are you sure for tomb raider 2?
I don't think that software rendering support 32 bits because it would be very demanding. At the release of TR 2, no 3d card supported 32 bits colors for 3d rendering.

Yes, I am sure. I just tested it several days ago. Software, I don't know as I wasn't interested - I have never, never run any Windows 3D game which can be accelerated using software mode. However, it seems the list of members mentioning software rendering is swelling, so I will test that going forward as well.

willow wrote on 2022-03-22, 20:18:

At the release of TR 2, no 3d card supported 32 bits colors for 3d rendering.

PowerVR PCX2 (via registry)
S3 ViRGE

However these early 32-bit D3D games are more out of following DirectDraw mode enumeration directly and not doing any filtering and likely supports them by accident (given that virge, is well, uh.... slow).

Ice and Fire is another 8-bit game.

How did you determine 15-bit color games ?

leileilol wrote on 2022-03-20, 06:13:

Meatball wrote on 2022-03-20, 06:02:

If you don’t find it it interesting, what are you doing in this thread?

You'd end up wasting your time listing ALL OF THEM. 24/32bit color support excluding seems silly when they're the least supported in this timeframe...

Thanks to the OP for wasting THEIR time listing this type of data, rather than me or anyone else having to spend their time to get any of this info.

This kind of information can be super useful when working on a retro project or a game, or diagnosing a graphics card, and then scratching one's head on "Can't I get this game/card/display go 16M colors? I swear I thought it should work."

Having google sheets or just a thread that lists this type of data point reachable at a quick google search is super useful. There are so many types of info like this that I've found valuable in the past years, like "EGA games", or "games with support for CGA NTSC composite artifact colors" and so on. If Meatball feels that this is the type of retro tinkering adventure he'd like to spend time on, that is a +1 amazing stuff in my books.

It is a valid point that the list is going to be huge and, as result, not likely to be complete. Because of that, a) maybe a google doc sheet would be more useful than a lot of individual forum replies, and b) I would recommend remembering to also report *negative results*. That is, explicitly stating if a game you tested did not support specific color mode, so that there is a trace of a "this was tested and doesn't work" as opposed to "this has not been tested/unknown result".

Also of particular interesting note might be if there is some unintuitive/undocumented/not so obvious way that one needs to use to enable a specific color mode. That is something that can be very valuable, as some games might bury those types of settings behind command line options, or other menus that are not clear to find.

BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2022-10-22, 01:56:

Ice and Fire is another 8-bit game.

How did you determine 15-bit color games ?

I've added Ice & Fire to the list (thanks!); I tested just now and found it won't even start unless the display is in 256-color mode.

15-bit was listed in the display options when using software acceleration for the 15-bit games I've listed to this point.

clb wrote on 2022-10-22, 08:45:

This kind of information can be super useful when working on a retro project or a game, or diagnosing a graphics card, and then […]
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This kind of information can be super useful when working on a retro project or a game, or diagnosing a graphics card, and then scratching one's head on "Can't I get this game/card/display go 16M colors? I swear I thought it should work."

Having google sheets or just a thread that lists this type of data point reachable at a quick google search is super useful. There are so many types of info like this that I've found valuable in the past years, like "EGA games", or "games with support for CGA NTSC composite artifact colors" and so on.

a) maybe a google doc sheet would be more useful than a lot of individual forum replies, and b) I would recommend remembering to also report *negative results*. That is, explicitly stating if a game you tested did not support specific color mode, so that there is a trace of a "this was tested and doesn't work" as opposed to "this has not been tested/unknown result".

Also of particular interesting note might be if there is some unintuitive/undocumented/not so obvious way that one needs to use to enable a specific color mode. That is something that can be very valuable, as some games might bury those types of settings behind command line options, or other menus that are not clear to find.

My primary reason for putting this list together was for my own personal use for games I wanted to play, but I figured others might want to know or have similar thoughts, so I started the thread. This also helped to add other games, which I might not ever play. Ideas from other members posting in this thread were incorporated, also.

You've listed a number of good ideas. Once I get back to this, it probably makes more sense to use some kind of online spreadsheet. It would be great if I could get this in PCGamingWiki, but this would be a ton of work for people already doing a ton of work, so I'm happy to have the thread (or future spreadsheet).

I'll also add the games tested, as I'll go through the list again to document the testing methods. If there are any quirks, I will be sure to mention them.

Meatball wrote on 2022-10-22, 17:00:

BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2022-10-22, 01:56:

Ice and Fire is another 8-bit game.

How did you determine 15-bit color games ?

I've added Ice & Fire to the list; I tested just now and found it won't even start unless the display is in 256-color mode.

15-bit was listed in the display options when using software acceleration for the 15-bit games I've listed to this point.

Maybe I didn't look into "display options" too much, but which display options are you referring? I am saying because NFS4 and NFS3, D3D releases on Windows XP/11 display resolutions such as 1024x768x16 (z), not (15).

BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2022-10-22, 17:29:

Meatball wrote on 2022-10-22, 17:00:

BEEN_Nath_58 wrote on 2022-10-22, 01:56:

Ice and Fire is another 8-bit game.

How did you determine 15-bit color games ?

I've added Ice & Fire to the list; I tested just now and found it won't even start unless the display is in 256-color mode.

15-bit was listed in the display options when using software acceleration for the 15-bit games I've listed to this point.

Maybe I didn't look into "display options" too much, but which display options are you referring? I am saying because NFS4 and NFS3, D3D releases on Windows XP/11 display resolutions such as 1024x768x16 (z), not (15).

It's software mode only for 15bit, not Direct3D.