The problem with the OTI087X on the Diamond Viper card is that it's only given 256KB of DRAM with an 8-bit memory path, which makes it ridiculously slow for what it's capable of - stand-alone OTI087/OTI087X cards with a full 32-bit memory path are top of the class (along with GD542x/WD90c3x) when it comes to ISA cards for DOS performance.

I've seen some Diamond Viper PCI cards that have a pair of unpopulated DIP-20 solder pads next to the existing DRAM for the OTI087x - I imagine soldering another pair of 4x256 DRAM chips would help performance a bit.

DEAT wrote on 2024-01-05, 07:51:

The problem with the OTI087X on the Diamond Viper card is that it's only given 256KB of DRAM with an 8-bit memory path, which makes it ridiculously slow for what it's capable of - stand-alone OTI087/OTI087X cards with a full 32-bit memory path are top of the class (along with GD542x/WD90c3x) when it comes to ISA cards for DOS performance.

I've seen some Diamond Viper PCI cards that have a pair of unpopulated DIP-20 solder pads next to the existing DRAM for the OTI087x - I imagine soldering another pair of 4x256 DRAM chips would help performance a bit.

Thank you for the info! I don't have soldering skills, though it seems that I should learn, given this hobby and how scarce parts are becoming, and of course there are bad caps on a lot of parts...

Since I am stuck with the card (unless I resell it,) I think that I will use it in Windows 3.x alongside another card for MS-DOS and use a VGA switch box. If I do that, then I can experience the "Windows accelerator" aspect of early (0s computing while hopefully finding a VGA/SVGA card from 1993 which will give me good DOS performance and color. This was an impulse buy, which is uncommon for me to do, since I usually research a bit more before buying something. I have read hundreds of posts on Vogons concerning the "best" video card for MS-DOS and there doesn't seem to be a "best" overall choice, but rather a top 5 or choices. Since this machine is a 486DX2, I'm not sure if 2mb for DOS is that important, though I think 1mb should be the minimum, and of course the best colors and compatibility for the vast majority of DOS games. But I will definitely play with this Weitek card.

Hi. 256KB VGA memory can do 800x600 16c and 640x400 256c, at least.
VBE TSRs: Re: OAK OTI-037c - 800x600 mode ?
Mode utility: Re: 286 EGA build mk2 ; Re: Realtek realtalk, is it the best VGA for CGA? What is?
OTI-077 disk /w OAK stuff: OAK OTI-77 driver diskette

Good luck. 🙂👍

Jo22 wrote on 2024-01-05, 16:55:

Hi. 256KB VGA memory can do 800x600 16c and 640x400 256c, at least. VBE TSRs: Re: OAK OTI-037c - 800x600 mode ? Mode utility: Re […]
Show full quote

Hi. 256KB VGA memory can do 800x600 16c and 640x400 256c, at least.
VBE TSRs: Re: OAK OTI-037c - 800x600 mode ?
Mode utility: Re: 286 EGA build mk2 ; Re: Realtek realtalk, is it the best VGA for CGA? What is?
OTI-077 disk /w OAK stuff: OAK OTI-77 driver diskette

Good luck. 🙂👍

I don't expect any luck with that stuff...

Diamond Viper = Oak OTI-087x + some Weitek chip
so, dedicated drivers are a must

Drivers for the OTI-087x are there - http://web.archive.org/web/19961112191122/htt … om/support.html
but probably useless for Diamond Viper
anyway, OTI-087x doesn't support register-level CGA and Hercules modes

^Thank you. 😺

Thank you all for your help! Hunting down a good card for DOS is very frustrating. There doesn't seem to be a "perfect" card for DOS. It seems that every card has an issue with this or that game, colors, garbling, speed...

Scythifuge wrote on 2024-01-05, 15:16:

Since I am stuck with the card (unless I resell it,) I think that I will use it in Windows 3.x alongside another card for MS-DOS and use a VGA switch box. If I do that, then I can experience the "Windows accelerator" aspect of early (0s computing while hopefully finding a VGA/SVGA card from 1993 which will give me good DOS performance and color. This was an impulse buy, which is uncommon for me to do, since I usually research a bit more before buying something. I have read hundreds of posts on Vogons concerning the "best" video card for MS-DOS and there doesn't seem to be a "best" overall choice, but rather a top 5 or choices. Since this machine is a 486DX2, I'm not sure if 2mb for DOS is that important, though I think 1mb should be the minimum, and of course the best colors and compatibility for the vast majority of DOS games. But I will definitely play with this Weitek card.

I don't think you will be able to use two cards together. The Viper VLB is a low-end ISA VGA-compatible card, plus the proprietary Weitek P9000 that just happens to be on a single VLB card. I don't think there is a way to disable the Oak part even in hardware (e.g. using jumpers) much less anything in software. Given that you have a 486DX2-66 and are not trying to do a "max 486" project, I'd just go with a 1MB Cirrus 5426, S3 805, or Trident 9440AGi and call it a day. In practice 640x480x256 or pushing it 800x600x256 is all anyone would have used on these systems anyway. There is a reason for "web-safe colors" if you look up that forgotten term...

jakethompson1 wrote on 2024-01-05, 20:14:

Scythifuge wrote on 2024-01-05, 15:16:

Since I am stuck with the card (unless I resell it,) I think that I will use it in Windows 3.x alongside another card for MS-DOS and use a VGA switch box. If I do that, then I can experience the "Windows accelerator" aspect of early (0s computing while hopefully finding a VGA/SVGA card from 1993 which will give me good DOS performance and color. This was an impulse buy, which is uncommon for me to do, since I usually research a bit more before buying something. I have read hundreds of posts on Vogons concerning the "best" video card for MS-DOS and there doesn't seem to be a "best" overall choice, but rather a top 5 or choices. Since this machine is a 486DX2, I'm not sure if 2mb for DOS is that important, though I think 1mb should be the minimum, and of course the best colors and compatibility for the vast majority of DOS games. But I will definitely play with this Weitek card.

I don't think you will be able to use two cards together. The Viper VLB is a low-end ISA VGA-compatible card, plus the proprietary Weitek P9000 that just happens to be on a single VLB card. I don't think there is a way to disable the Oak part even in hardware (e.g. using jumpers) much less anything in software. Given that you have a 486DX2-66 and are not trying to do a "max 486" project, I'd just go with a 1MB Cirrus 5426, S3 805, or Trident 9440AGi and call it a day. In practice 640x480x256 or pushing it 800x600x256 is all anyone would have used on these systems anyway. There is a reason for "web-safe colors" if you look up that forgotten term...

This one is a PCI card. Either way, you may be right, for I have never tried running two cards in the same machine (3dfx cards notwithstanding.) I'll experiment with it at any rate. I am a masochist-nerd in some respects and plan on actually running Windows 3.11 as a normal "everyday" computer for composing midi music, word processing, and other apps, while playing old games in-between. Despite having a 5900x/6900XT main PC, there is just something "better" and more enjoyable for me to us an old PC and old DOS and Windows, if I can get away with it, project-wise.

Thank you for the card/chip suggestions. I am coming across many S3 cards (I used to have a few, but lost them along with many other parts, unfortunately,) and Cirrus comes up a lot when reading about DOS cardshere on Vogons.

Oh! I didn't realize you had a PCI system. That opens up tons of options, especially for plain DOS gaming. I'd just go with a Trio64V+ or Cirrus 5446.
note: what is your chipset? early PCI chipsets may be picky about cards. My UM8886A won't accept the 5446, but UM8886B does, for example.

Scythifuge wrote on 2024-01-05, 15:16:

DEAT wrote on 2024-01-05, 07:51:

The problem with the OTI087X on the Diamond Viper card is that it's only given 256KB of DRAM with an 8-bit memory path, which makes it ridiculously slow for what it's capable of - stand-alone OTI087/OTI087X cards with a full 32-bit memory path are top of the class (along with GD542x/WD90c3x) when it comes to ISA cards for DOS performance.

I've seen some Diamond Viper PCI cards that have a pair of unpopulated DIP-20 solder pads next to the existing DRAM for the OTI087x - I imagine soldering another pair of 4x256 DRAM chips would help performance a bit.

Thank you for the info! I don't have soldering skills, though it seems that I should learn, given this hobby and how scarce parts are becoming, and of course there are bad caps on a lot of parts...

Since I am stuck with the card (unless I resell it,) I think that I will use it in Windows 3.x alongside another card for MS-DOS and use a VGA switch box. If I do that, then I can experience the "Windows accelerator" aspect of early (0s computing while hopefully finding a VGA/SVGA card from 1993 which will give me good DOS performance and color. This was an impulse buy, which is uncommon for me to do, since I usually research a bit more before buying something. I have read hundreds of posts on Vogons concerning the "best" video card for MS-DOS and there doesn't seem to be a "best" overall choice, but rather a top 5 or choices. Since this machine is a 486DX2, I'm not sure if 2mb for DOS is that important, though I think 1mb should be the minimum, and of course the best colors and compatibility for the vast majority of DOS games. But I will definitely play with this Weitek card.

The Weitek 9000 is not bad for Windows.
Yes, the DOS part is probably bad, no way that you solder additional RAM to the card, there is no space 😁
So if DOS performance matters a lot, then get another card.

Sorry, I was sure that you talk about the VLB variant. So it seems to be possible to solder addtional RAM to the card, not sure if it is worth it.

EDIT:
With PCI you have tons of options.
Probably a very good option is a S3 Trio64 with 2MB
I would also highly recommend a ATI Rage Pro PCI with 4MB, which is very fast!

jakethompson1 wrote on 2024-01-05, 20:29:

Oh! I didn't realize you had a PCI system. That opens up tons of options, especially for plain DOS gaming. I'd just go with a Trio64V+ or Cirrus 5446.
note: what is your chipset? early PCI chipsets may be picky about cards. My UM8886A won't accept the 5446, but UM8886B does, for example.

My mobo is a Tomato 4dps with a SiS chipset. Currently, I have some form of Mach64 3d card with 8mb RAM and TV out, but it is overkill and too late for this system. I mean, it seems to work with everything I have thrown at it, but I would rather put it in a Pentium-based system. The initial goal was to create a period correct machine, save for QOL upgrades such as the CF-to-IDE, and a secondary DVD drive for loading backups of the system/games in the event I have to format or use a new CF card. Originally I was trying to stick with 1993 cards because that was the year I got my first PC, a 486SX/33. However, the PSU had died while under warranty and while in service, I convinced my mom to pay to upgrade to a DX2/66 so that I could play Ultima VIII in 1994, so it expands the potential cards I can try to get, hehehe...

Scythifuge wrote on 2024-01-05, 20:56:

jakethompson1 wrote on 2024-01-05, 20:29:

Oh! I didn't realize you had a PCI system. That opens up tons of options, especially for plain DOS gaming. I'd just go with a Trio64V+ or Cirrus 5446.
note: what is your chipset? early PCI chipsets may be picky about cards. My UM8886A won't accept the 5446, but UM8886B does, for example.

My mobo is a Tomato 4dps with a SiS chipset. Currently, I have some form of Mach64 3d card with 8mb RAM and TV out, but it is overkill and too late for this system. I mean, it seems to work with everything I have thrown at it, but I would rather put it in a Pentium-based system. The initial goal was to create a period correct machine, save for QOL upgrades such as the CF-to-IDE, and a secondary DVD drive for loading backups of the system/games in the event I have to format or use a new CF card. Originally I was trying to stick with 1993 cards because that was the year I got my first PC, a 486SX/33. However, the PSU had died while under warranty and while in service, I convinced my mom to pay to upgrade to a DX2/66 so that I could play Ultima VIII in 1994, so it expands the potential cards I can try to get, hehehe...

Just a remark about "period correct". The mainboard is from 1995, is it correct?

CoffeeOne wrote on 2024-01-05, 20:59:

Scythifuge wrote on 2024-01-05, 20:56:

jakethompson1 wrote on 2024-01-05, 20:29:

Oh! I didn't realize you had a PCI system. That opens up tons of options, especially for plain DOS gaming. I'd just go with a Trio64V+ or Cirrus 5446.
note: what is your chipset? early PCI chipsets may be picky about cards. My UM8886A won't accept the 5446, but UM8886B does, for example.

My mobo is a Tomato 4dps with a SiS chipset. Currently, I have some form of Mach64 3d card with 8mb RAM and TV out, but it is overkill and too late for this system. I mean, it seems to work with everything I have thrown at it, but I would rather put it in a Pentium-based system. The initial goal was to create a period correct machine, save for QOL upgrades such as the CF-to-IDE, and a secondary DVD drive for loading backups of the system/games in the event I have to format or use a new CF card. Originally I was trying to stick with 1993 cards because that was the year I got my first PC, a 486SX/33. However, the PSU had died while under warranty and while in service, I convinced my mom to pay to upgrade to a DX2/66 so that I could play Ultima VIII in 1994, so it expands the potential cards I can try to get, hehehe...

Just a remark about "period correct". The mainboard is from 1995, is it correct?

I'm not sure. I am using it until I can find a motherboard from 1993-1994 with PS2 ports and PCI slots.

Scythifuge wrote on 2024-01-05, 21:01:

CoffeeOne wrote on 2024-01-05, 20:59:

Scythifuge wrote on 2024-01-05, 20:56:

My mobo is a Tomato 4dps with a SiS chipset. Currently, I have some form of Mach64 3d card with 8mb RAM and TV out, but it is overkill and too late for this system. I mean, it seems to work with everything I have thrown at it, but I would rather put it in a Pentium-based system. The initial goal was to create a period correct machine, save for QOL upgrades such as the CF-to-IDE, and a secondary DVD drive for loading backups of the system/games in the event I have to format or use a new CF card. Originally I was trying to stick with 1993 cards because that was the year I got my first PC, a 486SX/33. However, the PSU had died while under warranty and while in service, I convinced my mom to pay to upgrade to a DX2/66 so that I could play Ultima VIII in 1994, so it expands the potential cards I can try to get, hehehe...

Just a remark about "period correct". The mainboard is from 1995, is it correct?

I'm not sure. I am using it until I can find a motherboard from 1993-1994 with PS2 ports and PCI slots.

Tomato 4dps 2.0 board might even be from 1996 or 1997, so deep in the Pentium age.
If you like a period correct system, you need definitely an older board.
I cannot imagine that you will find a 486 board from 1993 with PCI slots. Maybe the very first boards from Intel were shipped in December 1993?
Even a 1994 manufactored 486-PCI board will be hard to find, most of the Taiwan boards were produced 1995, 1996, 1997 as far as I know.

CoffeeOne wrote on 2024-01-05, 21:09:

Tomato 4dps 2.0 board might even be from 1996 or 1997, so deep in the Pentium age. If you like a period correct system, you need […]
Show full quote

Scythifuge wrote on 2024-01-05, 21:01:

CoffeeOne wrote on 2024-01-05, 20:59:

Just a remark about "period correct". The mainboard is from 1995, is it correct?

I'm not sure. I am using it until I can find a motherboard from 1993-1994 with PS2 ports and PCI slots.

Tomato 4dps 2.0 board might even be from 1996 or 1997, so deep in the Pentium age.
If you like a period correct system, you need definitely an older board.
I cannot imagine that you will find a 486 board from 1993 with PCI slots. Maybe the very first boards from Intel were shipped in December 1993?
Even a 1994 manufactored 486-PCI board will be hard to find, most of the Taiwan boards were produced 1995, 1996, 1997 as far as I know.

I know that they can be rare. I want to say that the 486SX had them, but my memory is hazy. I had some sort of ALR board with PS2 ports and PCI slots (only one IDE port though,) but it died, leading me to using the 4dps. The original died and I replaced it while continuing the hunt. For me, when I am trying to be period correct, it comes down to the end-user experience with sound cards and video cards. Recently, I was tracking down the first sound card I ever had (an opti-based card.) It comes down to how the PC looks, sounds, and feels. My main optical drive is a quad speed, and it took me awhile to find a good working one.

I found a mach32 lying around, and I know that those were around the timeframe I am looking at, though a lot of posts I have read about them aren't very positive. I may try it out as a stop-gap measure. The trio64 is mentioned a lot and is one of the ones that seem to be the easiest to find, so I may grab one of those. I found some ET6000 cards for sale, but I read that they can't do mode x very well. I will look up some Cirrus cards and see what is out there.

Scythifuge wrote on 2024-01-05, 21:17:

CoffeeOne wrote on 2024-01-05, 21:09:

Tomato 4dps 2.0 board might even be from 1996 or 1997, so deep in the Pentium age. If you like a period correct system, you need […]
Show full quote

Scythifuge wrote on 2024-01-05, 21:01:

I'm not sure. I am using it until I can find a motherboard from 1993-1994 with PS2 ports and PCI slots.

Tomato 4dps 2.0 board might even be from 1996 or 1997, so deep in the Pentium age.
If you like a period correct system, you need definitely an older board.
I cannot imagine that you will find a 486 board from 1993 with PCI slots. Maybe the very first boards from Intel were shipped in December 1993?
Even a 1994 manufactored 486-PCI board will be hard to find, most of the Taiwan boards were produced 1995, 1996, 1997 as far as I know.

I know that they can be rare. I want to say that the 486SX had them, but my memory is hazy. I had some sort of ALR board with PS2 ports and PCI slots (only one IDE port though,) but it died, leading me to using the 4dps. The original died and I replaced it while continuing the hunt. For me, when I am trying to be period correct, it comes down to the end-user experience with sound cards and video cards. Recently, I was tracking down the first sound card I ever had (an opti-based card.) It comes down to how the PC looks, sounds, and feels. My main optical drive is a quad speed, and it took me awhile to find a good working one.

I found a mach32 lying around, and I know that those were around the timeframe I am looking at, though a lot of posts I have read about them aren't very positive. I may try it out as a stop-gap measure. The trio64 is mentioned a lot and is one of the ones that seem to be the easiest to find, so I may grab one of those. I found some ET6000 cards for sale, but I read that they can't do mode x very well. I will look up some Cirrus cards and see what is out there.

One more remark: I checked again the picture of the Diamond Viper PCI. The Weitek chips have a date code from 1993 week 44 (?)
So it is maybe one of oldest PCI cards existing. So from a collector's point of view, you should not sell it 😁

EDIT: Now I am curious: What was the first PCI graphics card?
S3 928 chip based cards might have been the first? Or Mach32 PCI?
Anyone knows?

CoffeeOne wrote on 2024-01-05, 21:36:

One more remark: I checked again the picture of the Diamond Viper PCI. The Weitek chips have a date code from 1993 week 44 (?) S […]
Show full quote

Scythifuge wrote on 2024-01-05, 21:17:

CoffeeOne wrote on 2024-01-05, 21:09:

Tomato 4dps 2.0 board might even be from 1996 or 1997, so deep in the Pentium age. If you like a period correct system, you need […]
Show full quote

Tomato 4dps 2.0 board might even be from 1996 or 1997, so deep in the Pentium age.
If you like a period correct system, you need definitely an older board.
I cannot imagine that you will find a 486 board from 1993 with PCI slots. Maybe the very first boards from Intel were shipped in December 1993?
Even a 1994 manufactored 486-PCI board will be hard to find, most of the Taiwan boards were produced 1995, 1996, 1997 as far as I know.

I know that they can be rare. I want to say that the 486SX had them, but my memory is hazy. I had some sort of ALR board with PS2 ports and PCI slots (only one IDE port though,) but it died, leading me to using the 4dps. The original died and I replaced it while continuing the hunt. For me, when I am trying to be period correct, it comes down to the end-user experience with sound cards and video cards. Recently, I was tracking down the first sound card I ever had (an opti-based card.) It comes down to how the PC looks, sounds, and feels. My main optical drive is a quad speed, and it took me awhile to find a good working one.

I found a mach32 lying around, and I know that those were around the timeframe I am looking at, though a lot of posts I have read about them aren't very positive. I may try it out as a stop-gap measure. The trio64 is mentioned a lot and is one of the ones that seem to be the easiest to find, so I may grab one of those. I found some ET6000 cards for sale, but I read that they can't do mode x very well. I will look up some Cirrus cards and see what is out there.

One more remark: I checked again the picture of the Diamond Viper PCI. The Weitek chips have a date code from 1993 week 44 (?)
So it is maybe one of oldest PCI cards existing. So from a collector's point of view, you should not sell it 😁

EDIT: Now I am curious: What was the first PCI graphics card?
S3 928 chip based cards might have been the first? Or Mach32 PCI?
Anyone knows?

I have been checking the Dos Days website a lot when trying to find cards by specific year. It is easy to get lost while researching all of those cards! Also, going by the prices of a lot of these cards these days, an S3 of some sort is probably the only answer, unless I stick with my overkill Mach64 8mb, hehehe.. I may throw the Mach32 in there and run some game tests.

Scythifuge wrote on 2024-01-05, 21:53:

CoffeeOne wrote on 2024-01-05, 21:36:

One more remark: I checked again the picture of the Diamond Viper PCI. The Weitek chips have a date code from 1993 week 44 (?) S […]
Show full quote

Scythifuge wrote on 2024-01-05, 21:17:

I know that they can be rare. I want to say that the 486SX had them, but my memory is hazy. I had some sort of ALR board with PS2 ports and PCI slots (only one IDE port though,) but it died, leading me to using the 4dps. The original died and I replaced it while continuing the hunt. For me, when I am trying to be period correct, it comes down to the end-user experience with sound cards and video cards. Recently, I was tracking down the first sound card I ever had (an opti-based card.) It comes down to how the PC looks, sounds, and feels. My main optical drive is a quad speed, and it took me awhile to find a good working one.

I found a mach32 lying around, and I know that those were around the timeframe I am looking at, though a lot of posts I have read about them aren't very positive. I may try it out as a stop-gap measure. The trio64 is mentioned a lot and is one of the ones that seem to be the easiest to find, so I may grab one of those. I found some ET6000 cards for sale, but I read that they can't do mode x very well. I will look up some Cirrus cards and see what is out there.

One more remark: I checked again the picture of the Diamond Viper PCI. The Weitek chips have a date code from 1993 week 44 (?)
So it is maybe one of oldest PCI cards existing. So from a collector's point of view, you should not sell it 😁

EDIT: Now I am curious: What was the first PCI graphics card?
S3 928 chip based cards might have been the first? Or Mach32 PCI?
Anyone knows?

I have been checking the Dos Days website a lot when trying to find cards by specific year. It is easy to get lost while researching all of those cards! Also, going by the prices of a lot of these cards these days, an S3 of some sort is probably the only answer, unless I stick with my overkill Mach64 8mb, hehehe.. I may throw the Mach32 in there and run some game tests.

I quickly checked Dosdays.
S3 864 chip based PCI(!) cards might have been available already since 1992? I cannot believe it honestly spoken 😁
EDIT: The ones I find on Ebay are all from 1994. So S3 928 or your upcoming Viper win the contest for being older.