canthearu wrote on 2021-09-12, 13:12:

You could just buy a USB GPIO Module: […]
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mike_canada wrote on 2021-09-12, 05:58:

Sadly, new computers get rid of all this stuff which makes it harder for hardware developers to program simple thinks like making a computer turn on an LED light.

You could just buy a USB GPIO Module:

https://numato.com/product/32-channel-usb-gpi … -analog-inputs/

Little risk of cooking your expensive computer hardware if you wire it wrong.

Parallel Port? Maybe.

Gameport and COMx are safe.
COM ports have internal diodes and can't be killed by shorting pins.

canthearu wrote on 2021-09-12, 13:12:

Alternatively, a Raspberry PI is also excellent for this task.

Raspberry Pi is proprietary, expensive and overly complicated (ARM core controled by a GPU with a binary blob that runs a custom Linux containing billion of lines of code and dozen of background processes).

Also, GPIO pins can be killed easily.
Only exception are the I2C linrs, which are used for LCDs. They contain pullup diodes.
Pi 3 was notorious for being bricked due to a voltage management chip that got damaged easily.

- Don't get me wrong, Pi is nice to play with or to make custom devices that can't be bought.

However, as a developer, you'd like to have a platform that makes you independant.

An Arduino UNO is more likely a solution, since it can be built from scratch. All it needs are off the shelf parts.

For controlling a single LED even the UNO is overkill, one of the ATTiny85 boards that can use arduino ecosystem is $2 and is still underemployed by about 4x (can do 5 outputs)

4-bit power still rocks.

retardware wrote on 2021-09-12, 14:19:

4-bit power still rocks.

Interesting, didn't know that one. 😯

Anyway, microcontrollers are excepted from the list.
The dude in the video at hackaday.com stated that.
The article was about general-purpose computers.
If I'm not mistaken, 4/8/16-Bit PCs were taken from the shelves quite some time ago. 😉

Jo22 wrote on 2021-09-12, 14:01:

canthearu wrote on 2021-09-12, 13:12:

Alternatively, a Raspberry PI is also excellent for this task.

Raspberry Pi is proprietary, expensive and overly complicated ...

PI Zero with GPIO header pre-soldered is 13 GBP? ... without header, even cheaper? Pi Zero WH supplies wireless too. IoT and all that...

Jo22 wrote on 2021-09-12, 14:01:

However, as a developer, you'd like to have a platform that makes you independent.

Not too sure how any of this is relevant though... canada_mike mentioned turning LED on or off via parallel... in which case a computer with a parallel port running BASIC is effectively the 'controller'. And since parallel is an outdated interface, anything that uses it would probably be power hungry overkill compared to any SBC form the last 10+ years.

Open source or not... for turning an LED on or off programmatically, there are a host of embedded IC's which would be far more relevant than any SBC. And how they are programmed would dictate the interfaces required on the 'computer'. Even then, it wouldn't be plugged into the LED for normal operation?

"Honeyboxen with 9-bit bytes are a serious annoyance..."

Jo22 wrote on 2021-09-12, 14:01:

Raspberry Pi is proprietary, expensive and overly complicated (ARM core controled by a GPU with a binary blob that runs a custom Linux containing billion of lines of code and dozen of background processes).

Considering old computers with parallel ports are more expensive theses days then a low end Raspberry Pi, I don't see how you could call the Raspberry Pi overly expensive. And for the purposes of a few program controlled GPIO pins, I am not sure how an entire ancient PC that is consuming 50W of energy isn't overly complicated compared to a small embedded system.

As for proprietary, isn't the entire MS-DOS ecosystem pretty damn proprietary. You don't get the source code for nearly as much of the system as you do with a Raspberry Pi.

It is cool that you can bitbang on the parallel/serial or gameport interface to send GPIO data out of an ancient PC, but it isn't a good reason to use these old systems instead of more modern systems that are better designed for the job. Now that isn't to say you shouldn't have your fun and do what you want with your ancient PCs, but for most people, it shouldn't be their first choice when designing a device that needs GPIO.

canthearu wrote on 2021-09-12, 16:22:

Considering old computers with parallel ports are more expensive theses days then a low end Raspberry Pi, I don't see how you co […]
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Jo22 wrote on 2021-09-12, 14:01:

Raspberry Pi is proprietary, expensive and overly complicated (ARM core controled by a GPU with a binary blob that runs a custom Linux containing billion of lines of code and dozen of background processes).

Considering old computers with parallel ports are more expensive theses days then a low end Raspberry Pi, I don't see how you could call the Raspberry Pi overly expensive. And for the purposes of a few program controlled GPIO pins, I am not sure how an entire ancient PC that is consuming 50W of energy isn't overly complicated compared to a small embedded system.

As for proprietary, isn't the entire MS-DOS ecosystem pretty damn proprietary. You don't get the source code for nearly as much of the system as you do with a Raspberry Pi.

It is cool that you can bitbang on the parallel/serial or gameport interface to send GPIO data out of an ancient PC, but it isn't a good reason to use these old systems instead of more modern systems that are better designed for the job. Now that isn't to say you shouldn't have your fun and do what you want with your ancient PCs, but for most people, it shouldn't be their first choice when designing a device that needs GPIO.

I'm not sure what to answer, I believe it has to do with design philosophy, also.

There are people who just use anything that does the job and then there are people who care about the underlying architecture and the basic principles of electronics.

Historically, homebrew devices built for PC platform, be it Z80 or 8086 systems, are not having components with own intelligence. :

Homebrew circuits that attach to serial port or parallel port on a DOS PC
do not contain microcontrollers, bridge chips with internal program code (USB chips) and so on.

Rather, they contain pure logic circuits, made from 4000 or 7400 series ICs, NE555s, discrete transistors/diodes, mechanical relais etc.

To some of those people, including me, it's simply fascinating and educational to see something working "in hardware".

No Linux, no microcontrollers, no software, no bridge chips.
Just pure physics!

People who prefer real NES consoles over emulator boxes feel likewise, I assume. 😀

Edit: I did forget to mention that I successfully used QB45 in Virtual PC 2007 to communicate with the outside world.
VPC 2007 could pass-through parallel and serial ports.
Not just superficial (data), but also on the physical level.
Bitbanging the data lines worked for both serial and parallel ports.
In case of COM ports even via USB serial converters.

retardware wrote on 2021-09-12, 14:19:

4-bit power still rocks.

Yep but 32 bit dead

Still rocking on 32-bit browser.

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2021-09-13, 17:02:

Still rocking on 32-bit browser.

Same here. On a P4 no less 😉

Jo22 wrote on 2021-09-12, 14:01:

Raspberry Pi is proprietary, expensive and overly complicated (ARM core controled by a GPU with a binary blob that runs a custom Linux containing billion of lines of code and dozen of background processes).

🤣 what

a Pi's normally around $35 (higher price points are for additional memory and/or kit bundles) and there's been "bare-metal" projects for them and raspbianRaspberry Pi OS isn't the only form of linux you can run on there.

leileilol wrote on 2021-09-13, 21:02:

Jo22 wrote on 2021-09-12, 14:01:

Raspberry Pi is proprietary, expensive and overly complicated (ARM core controled by a GPU with a binary blob that runs a custom Linux containing billion of lines of code and dozen of background processes).

🤣 what

a Pi's normally around $35 (higher price points are for additional memory and/or kit bundles) and there's been "bare-metal" projects for them and raspbianRaspberry Pi OS isn't the only form of linux you can run on there.

And of course lets not forget RiscOS 😉

Edit:Ops! Sorry I forgot the link- https://www.riscosopen.org/wiki/documentation … 0RISC%20OS%20Pi

leileilol wrote on 2021-09-13, 21:02:

Jo22 wrote on 2021-09-12, 14:01:

Raspberry Pi is proprietary, expensive and overly complicated (ARM core controled by a GPU with a binary blob that runs a custom Linux containing billion of lines of code and dozen of background processes).

🤣 what

a Pi's normally around $35 (higher price points are for additional memory and/or kit bundles) and there's been "bare-metal" projects for them and raspbianRaspberry Pi OS isn't the only form of linux you can run on there.

https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=216177

Anyway, my point was thst things can be done with less.
- If this was a place like hackaday.com, people would say "just use a 555". 😉

Btw, on university's / computer science classes, teachers still use Pascal and Z80 CPUs as teaching tools sometime.
The Z80 gives an idea of Von Neumann architecture, also.
https://www.element14.com/community/thread/47 … ed-with-the-z80

PS: I'm still using Raspbian on some Pis here, not the current Raspberry Pi OS. 😀

Edit: Yes, RiscOS is interesting, but worthless without the commercial software of the past.
The free stuff they do provide is mediocre, mildly said. 🙁

Jo22 wrote on 2021-09-13, 22:35:

https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=216177 […]
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leileilol wrote on 2021-09-13, 21:02:

Jo22 wrote on 2021-09-12, 14:01:

Raspberry Pi is proprietary, expensive and overly complicated (ARM core controled by a GPU with a binary blob that runs a custom Linux containing billion of lines of code and dozen of background processes).

🤣 what

a Pi's normally around $35 (higher price points are for additional memory and/or kit bundles) and there's been "bare-metal" projects for them and raspbianRaspberry Pi OS isn't the only form of linux you can run on there.

https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=216177

Anyway, my point was thst things can be done with less.
- If this was a place like hackaday.com, people would say "just use a 555". 😉

Btw, on university's / computer science classes, teachers still use Pascal and Z80 CPUs as teaching tools sometime.
The Z80 gives an idea of Von Neumann architecture, also.
https://www.element14.com/community/thread/47 … ed-with-the-z80

PS: I'm still using Raspbian on some Pis here, not the current Raspberry Pi OS. 😀

Edit: Yes, RiscOS is interesting, but worthless without the commercial software of the past.
The free stuff they do provide is mediocre, mildly said. 🙁

More useless old links. Why is that?

Re commercial apps for RiscOS, what a totally silly comment. There plenty of of applications and it's great that folk are mucking around with. It also shows how small and the little amount of ram can be use for applications.

Edit: RiscOS also has heritage going back to the late 80s..
Edit:Also earlier versions were on ACORN Risc systems. AKA the first consumer risc based computers.
Edit:Damn I forgot the link again so here it is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RISC_OS How forgetful of me
Edit:1990 study of Acorm risc architecture https://ir.canterbury.ac.nz/bitstream/handle/ … ggar_thesis.pdf Enjoy 😀

Caluser2000 wrote on 2021-09-13, 22:46:

Re commercial apps for RiscOS, what a totally silly comment. There plenty of of applications and it's great that folk are mucking around with.

RiscOS had interesting educational software written for British schools and quite a few commercial games that were on par with Amiga and Sharp x68000, if not more sophisticated.

https://www.mobygames.com/browse/games/acorn-32-bit/

https://www.mobygames.com/game/acorn-32-bit/v … s__/screenshots

https://www.mobygames.com/game/acorn-32-bit/s … ___/screenshots

Now there are free minesweeper level games and simple applications. 🙄
IMHO software library wise, RiscOS has become a shadow of its former self. Sadly.

IMHO to make RiscOS useful, someone needs to get hold of the old software, somehow..

Edit: Or in other words, it has gotten Amiga platform status.
Lots of freaky stuff, but "real" applications no more.

Caluser2000 wrote on 2021-09-13, 22:46:

Edit: RiscOS also has heritage going back to the late 80s..

That's very noticeable, yes.

Jo22 wrote on 2021-09-15, 10:40:

RiscOS had interesting educational software written for British schools and quite a few commercial games that were on par with A […]
Show full quote

Caluser2000 wrote on 2021-09-13, 22:46:

Re commercial apps for RiscOS, what a totally silly comment. There plenty of of applications and it's great that folk are mucking around with.

RiscOS had interesting educational software written for British schools and quite a few commercial games that were on par with Amiga and Sharp x68000, if not more sophisticated.

https://www.mobygames.com/browse/games/acorn-32-bit/

https://www.mobygames.com/game/acorn-32-bit/v … s__/screenshots

https://www.mobygames.com/game/acorn-32-bit/s … ___/screenshots

Now there are free minesweeper level games and simple applications. 🙄
IMHO software library wise, RiscOS has become a shadow of its former self. Sadly.

IMHO to make RiscOS useful, someone needs to get hold of the old software, somehow..

Edit: Or in other words, it has gotten Amiga platform status.
Lots of freaky stuff, but "real" applications no more.

Caluser2000 wrote on 2021-09-13, 22:46:

Edit: RiscOS also has heritage going back to the late 80s..

That's very noticeable, yes.

Sarcasm mitigation module turned off..

You can think what you like. ACORN and AMIGAs were used in various areas other than just desktop use . Your knowledge about then is obviously lacking about both platforms.

Thanks for posting mildly useful links to support you ramblings...😉

If vogon members want a background on things ACORN and it's history here's a good place to sart http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org.uk/

Sarcasm mitigation module turned on..

32-Bit is alive !

There, this thread can be closed off for further comments. 🍕

weedeewee wrote on 2021-09-15, 18:29:

32-Bit is alive !

There, this thread can be closed off for further comments. 🍕

I most certainly agree.

Edit: Forgot the 😉

linux 64bit wasn't written from scratch. Lots of it was ported from 32bit and some even just have a layer to run on 64bit.
Last I run linux 32bit on 64bit capable cpu I was surprised it actually ran more robustly but I won't mention the distros I will not turn people away from thei favs inc 64bit.
32bit software (or RISC) won't be dead anytime soon.