VOGONS


First post, by IcarusAvery

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I recently picked up a big lot of old retro tech. Among them was a Dell Dimension 4600, with a Pentium 4 @ 2.8GHz, 512MB of DDR400 RAM, and an AGP-equipped GeForce 4 MX 440. I'm thinking of using it - or alternatively, taking its guts and putting them into a new case - and making it into a Windows 98 PC. I've had some folks say it might be better as a Windows XP rig, but I've already got one of those (Intel Core 2 Duo E7600, 4GB of RAM, a GeForce 9800 GT, and a Sound Blaster Audigy SB0570).

I'm very inexperienced in using and installing Win98, so what I'm curious about, mainly, is:

  • Is this build usable for Windows 98, both for native 9x games and also for running in DOS mode?
  • What will I need to do to get it set up? Is it as simple as installing 98SE and some GPU drivers, or is there more to it?
  • What kind of sound card should I look into getting? I'm hoping to get something that won't break the bank, but also will still sound decent in both 9x and DOS games. Unfortunately, this MOBO only has PCI slots, no ISA compatibility.

Reply 1 of 22, by cyclone3d

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1. Make sure the fan that is shrouded to the CPU cooler is exhausting air out of the case and not blowing it into the case. I must have fixed 100+ Dimension 4600 towers by doing that when I was doing onsite Dell repair.... as in, almost all of them had the fan installed backwards.

Should be fine for Windows 98SE but you will need to make sure that there are network drivers for 9x or you will need to get a add-in network card.

You will need to install chipset drivers before other drivers. Should be one of the 865 chipsets. Driver version 5.02.1003. Available on philscomputerlab:
https://www.philscomputerlab.com/intel-chipset-drivers.html

What video card do you have? Is it just the onboard or is there an add-in video card?

For sound, in 9x the best is going to be an Audigy 2 ZS which can usually be had for cheap-ish. You can also go with a Live! or Audigy card. The only real difference for Windows 9x is going to be cleaner output on the Audigy 2 ZS.
This is primarily for the EAX support in games and if you want to load up nice soundfonts for games that support MIDI.

For DOS, you will be stuck with not compatible with everything options since you don't have ISA.
Yamaha 7x4 cards will give you good, clean and genuine Yamaha OPL3 (no TSR) and Sound Blaster Pro digital audio in DOS with the DSDMA TSR. Some games will not like it. You will also get hardware assisted wavetable in Windows.

Then there is the ESS Solo-1 which may also work for DOS.

The ForteMedia FM-801 could also work for DOS

For all PCI cards for DOS mentioned, beware of Chinese remarks which usually end up being a remarked CMI chipset which will only "work" with the provided remarked drivers unless you know the chip that it actually is.

Yamaha modified setupds and drivers
Yamaha XG repository
YMF7x4 Guide
Aopen AW744L II SB-LINK

Reply 2 of 22, by IcarusAvery

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cyclone3d wrote on 2021-10-25, 18:23:

snip

The video card is a GeForce 4 MX 440 plugged into the AGP slot on the motherboard.

As for the sound card, will I have to do anything to run both soundcards and have them play nice or will I have to swap soundcards based on what game I'm playing?

Also, I don't plan on hooking this thing up to the internet or a LAN but if I need to, I do have an ethernet card.

EDIT: also, what serial numbers for Audigy, Audigy 2 ZS, and Live cards should I be looking at? Because I've got an Audigy SB0570 that shows up as a Live but I'm like 99% certain it doesn't have Win98 drivers.

Reply 3 of 22, by TehGuy

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IcarusAvery wrote on 2021-10-25, 18:47:
The video card is a GeForce 4 MX 440 plugged into the AGP slot on the motherboard. […]
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cyclone3d wrote on 2021-10-25, 18:23:

snip

The video card is a GeForce 4 MX 440 plugged into the AGP slot on the motherboard.

As for the sound card, will I have to do anything to run both soundcards and have them play nice or will I have to swap soundcards based on what game I'm playing?

Also, I don't plan on hooking this thing up to the internet or a LAN but if I need to, I do have an ethernet card.

EDIT: also, what serial numbers for Audigy, Audigy 2 ZS, and Live cards should I be looking at? Because I've got an Audigy SB0570 that shows up as a Live but I'm like 99% certain it doesn't have Win98 drivers.

A2 ZS is going to be SB0350, the front panel 5.25" box for the card (if you want to feel cool) is going to be SB0250. You'd be right with the SB0570 as it seems the oldest it has is for Vista

I think the worst you'll have to deal with is some SB16 emulation IRQ stuff the yamaha/SB will have in windows 98 which can be solved by, well, changing one card to use different resources (assuming you install that stuff). Really only affects things run from the DOS window within Win98, iirc.

Win98+DOS: C3 Ezra-T 1.0AGHz / P3-S 1.26GHz, 128MB RAM, AWE64 + Orpheus + Audigy 2 ZS, Ti 4200, 128GB SD card
Win XP SP3: C2Q 9650, 4GB RAM, X-Fi Titanium, GTX 750
PowerMac G4 QS 800MHz + GeForce4 Ti4200, OS 9
PowerMac G5 DP 1.8Ghz + ATi x800 XT, Leopard

Reply 4 of 22, by kolderman

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IcarusAvery wrote on 2021-10-25, 18:12:

I've had some folks say it might be better as a Windows XP rig, but I've already got one of those (Intel Core 2 Duo E7600,

You are a LOT smarter than your friends, keep doing what your doing.

Is this build usable for Windows 98, both for native 9x games and also for running in DOS mode?

YES, very.

What will I need to do to get it set up? Is it as simple as installing 98SE and some GPU drivers, or is there more to it?

YES, basically. Just get the 2004 update CD as well and be happy.

What kind of sound card should I look into getting? I'm hoping to get something that won't break the bank, but also will still sound decent in both 9x and DOS games. Unfortunately, this MOBO only has PCI slots, no ISA compatibility.

The best for this build would either be an Audigy2ZS or something based on a Aureal Vortex2. The former will be cheaper and easier to find.

You might want to upgrade the GPU to something based on the FX line, such as a FX5900.

Reply 5 of 22, by Joakim

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Sounds like a cool late windows 98 build. Using SATA is quite handy.

I would pull one of the 256 mb sticks out before installing windows 98. You can put it back in afterwards.

I also believe there usually is some legacy setting that you can enable in bios I'm too tired but it has to do with hard drives.

Reply 6 of 22, by misterjones

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Didn't Win98SE have issues with clock speeds north of 2GHz? I seem to remember reading something about that on here once before. I have a Northwood core 2.4 GHz P4 machine I'm going to flip to Win98SE when we move and I get it out of storage. It's always been stuck in my head that I'm going to have to put it's original 2.0GHz processor back into it in order to get it to run properly.

Reply 7 of 22, by kolderman

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misterjones wrote on 2021-10-25, 21:50:

Didn't Win98SE have issues with clock speeds north of 2GHz? I seem to remember reading something about that on here once before. I have a Northwood core 2.4 GHz P4 machine I'm going to flip to Win98SE when we move and I get it out of storage. It's always been stuck in my head that I'm going to have to put it's original 2.0GHz processor back into it in order to get it to run properly.

If it did my 3.4ghz p4 with Win98 would not be rock solid, which it is 😉

Reply 8 of 22, by IcarusAvery

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TehGuy wrote on 2021-10-25, 20:47:
IcarusAvery wrote on 2021-10-25, 18:47:
The video card is a GeForce 4 MX 440 plugged into the AGP slot on the motherboard. […]
Show full quote
cyclone3d wrote on 2021-10-25, 18:23:

snip

The video card is a GeForce 4 MX 440 plugged into the AGP slot on the motherboard.

As for the sound card, will I have to do anything to run both soundcards and have them play nice or will I have to swap soundcards based on what game I'm playing?

Also, I don't plan on hooking this thing up to the internet or a LAN but if I need to, I do have an ethernet card.

EDIT: also, what serial numbers for Audigy, Audigy 2 ZS, and Live cards should I be looking at? Because I've got an Audigy SB0570 that shows up as a Live but I'm like 99% certain it doesn't have Win98 drivers.

A2 ZS is going to be SB0350, the front panel 5.25" box for the card (if you want to feel cool) is going to be SB0250. You'd be right with the SB0570 as it seems the oldest it has is for Vista

I think the worst you'll have to deal with is some SB16 emulation IRQ stuff the yamaha/SB will have in windows 98 which can be solved by, well, changing one card to use different resources (assuming you install that stuff). Really only affects things run from the DOS window within Win98, iirc.

Would an Audigy 2 SB0400 work in DOS through 98? I'm working on a fairly tight budget and I can get one of those for fairly cheap, and I can always get a 7x4 later on.

Reply 9 of 22, by kolderman

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IcarusAvery wrote on 2021-10-25, 22:43:
TehGuy wrote on 2021-10-25, 20:47:
IcarusAvery wrote on 2021-10-25, 18:47:
The video card is a GeForce 4 MX 440 plugged into the AGP slot on the motherboard. […]
Show full quote

The video card is a GeForce 4 MX 440 plugged into the AGP slot on the motherboard.

As for the sound card, will I have to do anything to run both soundcards and have them play nice or will I have to swap soundcards based on what game I'm playing?

Also, I don't plan on hooking this thing up to the internet or a LAN but if I need to, I do have an ethernet card.

EDIT: also, what serial numbers for Audigy, Audigy 2 ZS, and Live cards should I be looking at? Because I've got an Audigy SB0570 that shows up as a Live but I'm like 99% certain it doesn't have Win98 drivers.

A2 ZS is going to be SB0350, the front panel 5.25" box for the card (if you want to feel cool) is going to be SB0250. You'd be right with the SB0570 as it seems the oldest it has is for Vista

I think the worst you'll have to deal with is some SB16 emulation IRQ stuff the yamaha/SB will have in windows 98 which can be solved by, well, changing one card to use different resources (assuming you install that stuff). Really only affects things run from the DOS window within Win98, iirc.

Would an Audigy 2 SB0400 work in DOS through 98? I'm working on a fairly tight budget and I can get one of those for fairly cheap, and I can always get a 7x4 later on.

You aren't building a DOS gaming PC, you are building a late-98 PC. That being said, yes it is possible with driver hacking.

Reply 10 of 22, by ODwilly

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If your P4 has HT there should be an option in the bios from what I can remember to disable it.

Main pc: Asus ROG 17. R9 5900HX, RTX 3070m, 16gb ddr4 3200, 1tb NVME.
Retro PC: Soyo P4S Dragon, 3gb ddr 266, 120gb Maxtor, Geforce Fx 5950 Ultra, SB Live! 5.1

Reply 11 of 22, by IcarusAvery

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kolderman wrote on 2021-10-25, 22:56:
IcarusAvery wrote on 2021-10-25, 22:43:
TehGuy wrote on 2021-10-25, 20:47:

A2 ZS is going to be SB0350, the front panel 5.25" box for the card (if you want to feel cool) is going to be SB0250. You'd be right with the SB0570 as it seems the oldest it has is for Vista

I think the worst you'll have to deal with is some SB16 emulation IRQ stuff the yamaha/SB will have in windows 98 which can be solved by, well, changing one card to use different resources (assuming you install that stuff). Really only affects things run from the DOS window within Win98, iirc.

Would an Audigy 2 SB0400 work in DOS through 98? I'm working on a fairly tight budget and I can get one of those for fairly cheap, and I can always get a 7x4 later on.

You aren't building a DOS gaming PC, you are building a late-98 PC. That being said, yes it is possible with driver hacking.

I know, but I still wanna run certain games from DOS through 98's DOS compatibility (namely, stuff from the mid-90s like Duke Nukem 3D, Descent, etc.

Still, thanks!

Reply 12 of 22, by kolderman

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IcarusAvery wrote on 2021-10-26, 00:48:
kolderman wrote on 2021-10-25, 22:56:
IcarusAvery wrote on 2021-10-25, 22:43:

Would an Audigy 2 SB0400 work in DOS through 98? I'm working on a fairly tight budget and I can get one of those for fairly cheap, and I can always get a 7x4 later on.

You aren't building a DOS gaming PC, you are building a late-98 PC. That being said, yes it is possible with driver hacking.

I know, but I still wanna run certain games from DOS through 98's DOS compatibility (namely, stuff from the mid-90s like Duke Nukem 3D, Descent, etc.

Still, thanks!

DOS gaming on a fast system without ISA will be hit and miss. There is basically no PCI sound-card with perfect compatibility, and many DOS games will have problems on a CPU that fast.

Reply 13 of 22, by chrisNova777

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i have win98SE running on an intel core 2 extreme. its pretty solid 😉

the asus p5pe-vm board is awesome for running win98 becuase it supports 865G
http://www.hw-museum.cz/mb/72/asus-p5pe-vm

http://www.oldschooldaw.com | vintage PC/MAC MIDI/DAW | Asus mobo archive | Sound Modules | Vintage MIDI Interfaces
AM386DX40 | Asus VL/I-486SV2GX4 (486DX2-80) | GA586VX (p75) + r7000PCI | ABIT Be6 (pII-233) matroxG400 AGP

Reply 14 of 22, by dormcat

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IcarusAvery wrote on 2021-10-25, 18:12:
[…]
Show full quote
  • Is this build usable for Windows 98, both for native 9x games and also for running in DOS mode?
  • What will I need to do to get it set up? Is it as simple as installing 98SE and some GPU drivers, or is there more to it?
  • What kind of sound card should I look into getting? I'm hoping to get something that won't break the bank, but also will still sound decent in both 9x and DOS games. Unfortunately, this MOBO only has PCI slots, no ISA compatibility.
  • Yes, and a very capable one.
  • Mostly, yes, unless you'd prefer using a SATA drive (HDD or SSD), then you might need additional drivers.
  • For DOS compatibility with PCI cards I'd recommend Sound Blaster or Yamaha cards. SB cards are easy to find and their drivers at least tried to maintain compatibility under that brand name, while Yamaha cards have native support of OPL chips.
chrisNova777 wrote on 2021-10-26, 01:13:

i have win98SE running on an intel core 2 extreme. its pretty solid 😉

the asus p5pe-vm board is awesome for running win98 becuase it supports 865G
http://www.hw-museum.cz/mb/72/asus-p5pe-vm

Any MB with 865 series chipset, an AGP slot, and LGA775 accepting Core 2 series CPU would be great for any game or app from Win9x to Win7. 👼 Sadly they are neither common nor cheap on most used electronics markets.

Reply 15 of 22, by RandomStranger

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IcarusAvery wrote on 2021-10-25, 18:47:

Also, I don't plan on hooking this thing up to the internet or a LAN but if I need to, I do have an ethernet card.

You should plan hooking it up to your home network (maybe in a dedicated VLAN). It's very convenient and generally doesn't take much effort.

sreq.png retrogamer-s.png

Reply 16 of 22, by chinny22

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Here is the link for Audigy 2 ZS drivers for dos mode.
http://vogonsdrivers.com/getfile.php?fileid=1383&menustate=0
(Audigy and earlier included them as part of the install)

For now I'd keep the GF4 MX till you get an idea of how the system performs. It's definitely a bottleneck but has great compatibility so good card to start with.
You have all the makings for a powerful 9x build already, I'd try it out as is before spending any more cash.

You may also have luck playing dos games from within Windows. The creative cards for example add a legacy soundcard in device manager for dos games. Sometimes this works better then dropping back to real dos.

Reply 17 of 22, by IcarusAvery

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chinny22 wrote on 2021-10-26, 10:50:
Here is the link for Audigy 2 ZS drivers for dos mode. http://vogonsdrivers.com/getfile.php?fileid=1383&menustate=0 (Audigy and […]
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Here is the link for Audigy 2 ZS drivers for dos mode.
http://vogonsdrivers.com/getfile.php?fileid=1383&menustate=0
(Audigy and earlier included them as part of the install)

For now I'd keep the GF4 MX till you get an idea of how the system performs. It's definitely a bottleneck but has great compatibility so good card to start with.
You have all the makings for a powerful 9x build already, I'd try it out as is before spending any more cash.

You may also have luck playing dos games from within Windows. The creative cards for example add a legacy soundcard in device manager for dos games. Sometimes this works better then dropping back to real dos.

That's one thing I'm not sure I've made clear. I don't plan on using real DOS mode very much, I'm moreso interested in using the DOS compatibility stuff from within Win98. Thanks for mentioning how this works.

On that note, I found an Audigy SB0200. Is that one worth it? I've heard a lot of Sound Blasters are actually cut down versions made for OEMs and I wanna make sure I don't accidentally get a crap card.

Reply 18 of 22, by chinny22

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SB0200 seems to be a SB Live not Audigy.
Doesn't matter the SB0200 is definitely a cut down version you want to avoid

Reply 19 of 22, by zapbuzz

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misterjones wrote on 2021-10-25, 21:50:

Didn't Win98SE have issues with clock speeds north of 2GHz? I seem to remember reading something about that on here once before. I have a Northwood core 2.4 GHz P4 machine I'm going to flip to Win98SE when we move and I get it out of storage. It's always been stuck in my head that I'm going to have to put it's original 2.0GHz processor back into it in order to get it to run properly.

There is no limitation of speed for Windows 98SE, however pentium 4 HT (Hyper Threading function) needs to be disabled in system BIOS.

Additionally on 98SE machines with pentium III and above I recommend the cpu driver from windows xp for better efficiency. (also works in 2000) "32bit only"