VOGONS


First post, by 95DosBox

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

Are there any working PCI or PCI Express sound cards that have Windows 3.X drivers for sound effects?

I'm hoping to test these on newer modern chipsets to see if they still function.

If so please list the sound card (Brand, Model, Chipset) and the computer motherboard and motherboard chipset your sound card was working properly on.

Also do these cards require any DOS drivers to be preloaded in the Config.sys, Autoexec.bat or a DOS TSR file for it to work in Windows 3.X?

Reply 1 of 12, by fitzpatr

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

I advise you to Google these questions. There is a lot of information available on these topics.

No way in hell for PCIe. In general, PCIe is a no-go for any Win9x for a large number of reasons. PCIe sound cards are well into the XP/Vista era, and I would strongly suspect that 9x drivers didn't even exist.

I refer you to this link for a potential PCI option. PCI Sound card for Windows 3.11 & Dos 6.22?
The earliest PCI sound cards were generally from 1997. Ensoniq AudioPCI, Creative Sound Blaster Live, Aureal Vortex, Yamaha YMF-724, and ESS Solo-1 are early PCI sound cards.

In my personal opinion, you're barking up the wrong trees with respect to trying to natively use DOS games on modern systems. MPU-401 over PCIe, running DOS for games on Core architectures, etc. Things have changed FAR too much to make this feasible. Your username obviously implies that you are aware of DOSBox, so I won't extol the virtues, but emulation really is the way to go if you're trying to use modern hardware.

All that being said, good luck with your experiments.

MT-32 Old, CM-32L, CM-500, SC-55mkII, SC-88Pro, SC-D70, FB-01, MU2000EX
K6-III+/450/GA-5AX/G400 Max/Voodoo2 SLI/CT1750/MPU-401AT/Audigy 2ZS
486 Build

Reply 2 of 12, by Neco

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

I read the post slightly differently. I think they were just looking for info on cards that might work with Windows 3.x in general, not necessarily games. "Sound effects" could mean different things but essentially it boils down to digital sound playback capability... whether that's an error.wav or some effect in a Win 3.x game

Reply 3 of 12, by 95DosBox

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
fitzpatr wrote:
I advise you to Google these questions. There is a lot of information available on these topics. […]
Show full quote

I advise you to Google these questions. There is a lot of information available on these topics.

No way in hell for PCIe. In general, PCIe is a no-go for any Win9x for a large number of reasons. PCIe sound cards are well into the XP/Vista era, and I would strongly suspect that 9x drivers didn't even exist.

I refer you to this link for a potential PCI option. PCI Sound card for Windows 3.11 & Dos 6.22?
The earliest PCI sound cards were generally from 1997. Ensoniq AudioPCI, Creative Sound Blaster Live, Aureal Vortex, Yamaha YMF-724, and ESS Solo-1 are early PCI sound cards.

In my personal opinion, you're barking up the wrong trees with respect to trying to natively use DOS games on modern systems. MPU-401 over PCIe, running DOS for games on Core architectures, etc. Things have changed FAR too much to make this feasible.

All that being said, good luck with your experiments.

Please read the title. I'm looking for PCI or PCI express sound cards that work in Windows 3.X = Windows 3.0, 3.1, 3.11. I'm not looking for Windows 9X drivers for PCI or PCI sound cards in this thread.

But to correct your myth or assumption. PCIe cards do work in Windows 9X. The Cmedia CMI 8738 PCIe card will work in Windows 98SE.

Actually DOS games do work on modern systems. Prince of Persia 1 in DOS runs on a Z370 and Z390 Coffee Lake chipset in 2018.

I also will be testing the i9-9900k which is the 8 core beast from Intel on it as well just for compatibility when they actually ship it which should have released on October the 18th, but now delays state December before it will ship stalling my experiment.

fitzpatr wrote:

Your username obviously implies that you are aware of DOSBox, so I won't extol the virtues, but emulation really is the way to go if you're trying to use modern hardware.

Yes I wrote how to get DOSBOX and MUNT98 working Windows 98SE and it successfully works on a Coffee Lake system. Emulation is not always the way to go when it comes to the difficulty comparison of running Pure DOS then getting 9X installed. DOS also allows the ability to avoid OS installation headaches which I won't get into that the standard layman will not want to participate in. Also the ability to boot directly into DOS (98SE DOS) using a USB drive using BIOS emulation avoids any USB OS compatibility issue.

For example if using Windows 2000 or XP you will not be able to boot directly into any modern motherboard starting with SkyLake through the Intel USB 3.0 ports and load DOSBOX and run MUNT after. First Intel USB 3.0 drivers do not exist for 2K or XP so it will not boot into that OS. Second you have to deal with two more obstacles. The 256 Color requirement of DOSBOX to even function and the 256 Color requirement seems to be needed to run MUNT's interface to work with DOSBOX.

Again booting directly to pure or real DOS eliminates this obstacle since DOS can run in pure 256 color mode without needing any additional DOS drivers to do it. If you need an example then try Prince of Persia 1 which still works on modern day 300 Series Coffee Lake in real DOS in 2018.

The next best OS would be Windows 3.1 if DOSBOX could be ported to it. Then if the CMI 8738 Windows 3.1 driver could be developed you could then run DOSBOX within Windows 3.1 and access up to 512MB of memory that could be used for superior sound emulation if necessary riding on the CMI 8738 since DOS has its limits but Windows 3.1 would open the door to some extreme emulation possibilities.

There also may be the day when Microsoft releases the source code for Windows 3.X. Then people would rewrite the OS to support multicore and you can imagine a DOS session running in its own individual core unrestricted.

That would allow Munt to run on its own core or multicore reducing the load or the ability to emulate other synths like the SC-55, SC-88, ... given the extra accessible memory to Windows 3.1 even in standard mode.

Neco wrote:

I read the post slightly differently. I think they were just looking for info on cards that might work with Windows 3.x in general, not necessarily games. "Sound effects" could mean different things but essentially it boils down to digital sound playback capability... whether that's an error.wav or some effect in a Win 3.x game

Yes Neco you interpreted the thread correctly. Windows 3.1 Sound effects = voice or digitized effects within the Windows 3.1 OS. This does not mean for DOS. However a port of DOSBOX to Windows 3.1 Standard could then do the sound emulation conversion of a native windows 3.1 sound card. If the CMI 8738 PCIe 3.1 driver were created it could output accordingly to Tandy, Adlib, Sound Blaster, Gravis Ultrasound, et cetera within DOSBOX's sound emulation capabilities.

By that token any DOS game could then be played with proper sound emulation avoiding the pure DOS headaches of ISA slots but use a PCIe slot and with a proper MUNT port to Windows 3.1 it would then do MT-32 emulation on top of that while all of this is happening on top of real DOS.

Last edited by 95DosBox on 2018-10-30, 05:27. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 4 of 12, by squareguy

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

Ensoniq AudioPCI

Gateway 2000 Case and 200-Watt PSU
Intel SE440BX-2 Motherboard
Intel Pentium III 450 CPU
Micron 384MB SDRAM (3x128)
Compaq Voodoo3 3500 TV Graphics Card
Turtle Beach Santa Cruz Sound Card
Western Digital 7200-RPM, 8MB-Cache, 160GB Hard Drive
Windows 98 SE

Reply 5 of 12, by 95DosBox

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
squareguy wrote:

Ensoniq AudioPCI

Can you confirm this worked with just a Windows 3.1 driver with a clean/empty
Config.sys
Autoexec.bat
and no TSRs needed in DOS prior to loading Windows 3.1?

Also what modern chipset did you test the Ensoniq PCI on Windows 3.1?

And which Ensoniq PCI model # did you use?

Which specific Windows 3.1 driver and version # did you test it with, any download link?

Reply 6 of 12, by squareguy

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

ES 1370,1371,1373

I did not test but it had official driver support for 3.1

driver at driverguide, other links look dead.

Filename
apiwiz31.exe
File size
2.89 MiB
Downloads
72 downloads
File license
Fair use/fair dealing exception

Gateway 2000 Case and 200-Watt PSU
Intel SE440BX-2 Motherboard
Intel Pentium III 450 CPU
Micron 384MB SDRAM (3x128)
Compaq Voodoo3 3500 TV Graphics Card
Turtle Beach Santa Cruz Sound Card
Western Digital 7200-RPM, 8MB-Cache, 160GB Hard Drive
Windows 98 SE

Reply 7 of 12, by dr.zeissler

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

solo1 works in win3x with native drivers.

Retro-Gamer 😀PowerMac 6100-66/Houdini 486/66 - G4 Cube 450/Rage128pro OS9.0.1 - Macintosh LC/Apple IIe Card OS6.0.8 - Acorn A4000 Archimedes - Unisys CWD 486/66 + Aztech Washington

Reply 8 of 12, by fitzpatr

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
95DosBox wrote:
Please read the title. I'm looking for PCI or PCI express sound cards that work in Windows 3.X = Windows 3.0, 3.1, 3.11. I'm n […]
Show full quote
fitzpatr wrote:
I advise you to Google these questions. There is a lot of information available on these topics. […]
Show full quote

I advise you to Google these questions. There is a lot of information available on these topics.

No way in hell for PCIe. In general, PCIe is a no-go for any Win9x for a large number of reasons. PCIe sound cards are well into the XP/Vista era, and I would strongly suspect that 9x drivers didn't even exist.

I refer you to this link for a potential PCI option. PCI Sound card for Windows 3.11 & Dos 6.22?
The earliest PCI sound cards were generally from 1997. Ensoniq AudioPCI, Creative Sound Blaster Live, Aureal Vortex, Yamaha YMF-724, and ESS Solo-1 are early PCI sound cards.

In my personal opinion, you're barking up the wrong trees with respect to trying to natively use DOS games on modern systems. MPU-401 over PCIe, running DOS for games on Core architectures, etc. Things have changed FAR too much to make this feasible.

All that being said, good luck with your experiments.

Please read the title. I'm looking for PCI or PCI express sound cards that work in Windows 3.X = Windows 3.0, 3.1, 3.11. I'm not looking for Windows 9X drivers for PCI or PCI sound cards in this thread.

But to correct your myth or assumption. PCIe cards do work in Windows 9X. The Cmedia CMI 8738 PCIe card will work in Windows 98SE.

Actually DOS games do work on modern systems. Prince of Persia 1 in DOS runs on a Z370 and Z390 Coffee Lake chipset in 2018.

I also will be testing the i9-9900k which is the 8 core beast from Intel on it as well just for compatibility when they actually ship it which should have released on October the 18th, but now delays state December before it will ship stalling my experiment.

fitzpatr wrote:

Your username obviously implies that you are aware of DOSBox, so I won't extol the virtues, but emulation really is the way to go if you're trying to use modern hardware.

Yes I wrote how to get DOSBOX and MUNT98 working Windows 98SE and it successfully works on a Coffee Lake system. Emulation is not always the way to go when it comes to the difficulty comparison of running Pure DOS then getting 9X installed. DOS also allows the ability to avoid OS installation headaches which I won't get into that the standard layman will not want to participate in. Also the ability to boot directly into DOS (98SE DOS) using a USB drive using BIOS emulation avoids any USB OS compatibility issue.

For example if using Windows 2000 or XP you will not be able to boot directly into any modern motherboard starting with SkyLake through the Intel USB 3.0 ports and load DOSBOX and run MUNT after. First Intel USB 3.0 drivers do not exist for 2K or XP so it will not boot into that OS. Second you have to deal with two more obstacles. The 256 Color requirement of DOSBOX to even function and the 256 Color requirement seems to be needed to run MUNT's interface to work with DOSBOX.

Again booting directly to pure or real DOS eliminates this obstacle since DOS can run in pure 256 color mode without needing any additional DOS drivers to do it. If you need an example then try Prince of Persia 1 which still works on modern day 300 Series Coffee Lake in real DOS in 2018.

The next best OS would be Windows 3.1 if DOSBOX could be ported to it. Then if the CMI 8738 Windows 3.1 driver could be developed you could then run DOSBOX within Windows 3.1 and access up to 512MB of memory that could be used for superior sound emulation if necessary riding on the CMI 8738 since DOS has its limits but Windows 3.1 would open the door to some extreme emulation possibilities.

There also may be the day when Microsoft releases the source code for Windows 3.X. Then people would rewrite the OS to support multicore and you can imagine a DOS session running in its own individual core unrestricted.

That would allow Munt to run on its own core or multicore reducing the load or the ability to emulate other synths like the SC-55, SC-88, ... given the extra accessible memory to Windows 3.1 even in standard mode.

Yes, I did see that you wanted Windows 3.1, which is why the link I gave you is specifically about AudioPCI cards in Windows 3.1 (and DOS). I also gave you a list of (some of) the earliest PCI cards, which are most likely to have 3.1 drivers. My reference to 9x was that things of the PCIe era generally aren't meant for 9x, let alone 3.1. I'm not saying its impossible, but it is going to be rare. You found one chpset with drivers, and if you watch Phil's review, its DOS compatibility is shaky.

It's definitely neat that DOS, and even some DOS games, can still function on hardware like this! So as I said, good luck with your experiments! They're definitely forward looking.

MT-32 Old, CM-32L, CM-500, SC-55mkII, SC-88Pro, SC-D70, FB-01, MU2000EX
K6-III+/450/GA-5AX/G400 Max/Voodoo2 SLI/CT1750/MPU-401AT/Audigy 2ZS
486 Build

Reply 10 of 12, by wbahnassi

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie

There is also the YMF-724 and YMF-744 PCI cards with original OPL3 chipsets on them. In addition to Win9x drivers, they have real-mode DOS drivers emulating an SBPro (SETUP-DS and DSDMA). They lack Windows 3.1 sound drivers completely, but I was able to get OPL3 FM synthesis to work 100% under Win3.1 by using the original Sound Blaster Pro Windows 3.1 drivers.

Digital sound is not possible on Win3.1 with DSDMA though, as Windows will bypass it and hence the Win3.1 SBPro drivers won't talk to it like they do with the OPL3. If you happen to have hardware DDMA then I believe there is a chance to even get Win3.1 SBPro drivers to fully work with the YMF-7x4. Otherwise we'll need to write a Win3.1 driver that can directly talk to the PCI port instead of the emulated ISA port. Don't think it's impossible, but then again I never wrote driver code before.. would love to though at some point 😁

Reply 11 of 12, by darry

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t
95DosBox wrote on 2018-10-30, 02:39:
Are there any working PCI or PCI Express sound cards that have Windows 3.X drivers for sound effects? […]
Show full quote

Are there any working PCI or PCI Express sound cards that have Windows 3.X drivers for sound effects?

I'm hoping to test these on newer modern chipsets to see if they still function.

If so please list the sound card (Brand, Model, Chipset) and the computer motherboard and motherboard chipset your sound card was working properly on.

Also do these cards require any DOS drivers to be preloaded in the Config.sys, Autoexec.bat or a DOS TSR file for it to work in Windows 3.X?

Have a look at this Ensoniq Audio PCI 3000 the only sound card that works in Windows 3.1 with original drivers on a newer system (3900X)

EDIT: Wow, I really missed most of the thread and the point here. Sorry about that .

Last edited by darry on 2021-12-26, 15:55. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 12 of 12, by pengan

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie

I have a CMI 8738 on my ECS P6SEP-Me motherboard. I have successfully made it working with SoundBlaster 2.0 driver, both digital audio (wave playback) and MIDI (OPL emulated) works fine. I tested with Encarta '94, Macromedia Director 4.0 as well as SoundBlaster’s MIDI and Wave applications and all works fine.

First, we need some BIOS adjustment to make CMI8738 has IRQ 5 or 7, by default, my motherboard assigned IRQ 11 for CMI8738 and SB2.0 driver won't work with that, so assign IRQ10 and 11 to Legacy ISA and BIOS will assign IRQ5 to CMI8738

BIOS_IRQ.jpg
Filename
BIOS_IRQ.jpg
File size
80.95 KiB
Views
405 views
File license
CC-BY-4.0
DMI.jpg
Filename
DMI.jpg
File size
61.68 KiB
Views
405 views
File license
CC-BY-4.0

And then we need install the DOS part of CMI 8738 and Windows part of SoundBlaster 2.0 driver. I'm using CMI8738 driver found here:
https://www.philscomputerlab.com/c-media-cmi8738.html

So, we can see both PCI IRQ and SB IRQ is 5

DOS driver.jpg
Filename
DOS driver.jpg
File size
43.78 KiB
Views
405 views
File license
CC-BY-4.0

After this step, we can just use SoundBlaster 1.5 driver built in with Windows 3.1 for wave output, just like many DOSBox tutorial said. However, the SoundBlaster 1.5 driver doesn't have MIDI support, so I decide install SoundBlaster 2.0 driver.

I'm using the CT-1350B driver found here:
http://vogonsdrivers.com/getfile.php?fileid=41

The CT-1350B driver can't be installed on CMI8738 directly since the installer will report there are no SB2.0 device found, we can install it on DOSBox first, change DOSBox config file

sbtype=sb2

Then install the CT-1350B driver on DOSBox, and we got the DOSBOX_CDRIVE\SB folder which is extracted SB2.0 driver.
Copy the SB folder into the CMI8738 machine, and run INSTALL.EXE in the SB folder then we can see the Sound Blaster 2.0 install program running on the CMI8738 machine, select "Setup Windows" and install SB 2.0 driver into Windows, then we can have CMI8738 works in Windows 3.x just like a real SoundBlaster 2.0

SB20.jpg
Filename
SB20.jpg
File size
58.6 KiB
Views
405 views
File license
CC-BY-4.0

Updated in Dec 26, 2021
Tested with SoundBlaster Pro driver here: http://vogonsdrivers.com/getfile.php?fileid=62
And it works!

1_1.png
Filename
1_1.png
File size
41.38 KiB
Views
370 views
File license
CC-BY-4.0