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Bought this (Modern) hardware today

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Reply 1460 of 2070, by dormcat

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Bought an used Asus H81M-E + i5-4460 + 16GB DDR3 + GTX 650 Ti + 128GB SSD + 1TB HDD + DVD±RW + 500W PSU + mATX case for just NT$3,000 (US$108) to replace my Dad's Q8300. This little fella can run all my apps and games with no issues.

One strange thing: I can't update its BIOS/UEFI with Asus' official one downloaded from their website (error message: "image outdated"), and the startup splash screen shows "Lemel" (a brand under Synnex and a local distributor of Asus) instead of Asus. No observable defect so I might just leave its UEFI as is.

Last edited by dormcat on 2022-02-09, 02:58. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 1461 of 2070, by luckybob

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When I build my rig, I seriously considered going with AIO water cooling for the CPU. Had I chosen to do so, I would have gotten the large 360 from Corsair (go big or go home, amirite?), but honestly, the price/performance is NOT there. The NH-D15 is an *absolute unit* and is only a few degrees warmer than an said Corsiar AIO @ double the cost. This video from LTT was very helpful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23vjWtUpItk (I miss pre-covid twink Linus)

All that said, my 6900xt came with an AIO and that was worth EVERY penny. top-tier GPUs probably use 2x the power of a CPU. You can't even find a single slot gpu to save your soul for anything made in the last decade. Hell even the piss-ant 1030 I have in my garage PC uses an asinine, passively cooled, abomination. I was using said 6900xt to keep my garage warm, and the aio made it silent and allowed for clocks that were an easy 2600mhz (up from 2200 stock).

My first new computer was a 2.4ghz pressHOTT, and I ran my own watercooling thanks to Danger Den. (I still have all the parts). It worked very well, but I never got the performance boost that people get today. That said, water-cooling is a niche product, at best. Its only tangible benefits are for the bleeding edge hardware and anyone who just wants to swing their dick around. (A completely legitimate reason, btw)

It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potatoes.

Reply 1462 of 2070, by luckybob

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dormcat wrote on 2022-02-09, 02:47:

Bought an used Asus H81M-E + i5-4460 + 16GB DDR3 + GTX 650 Ti + 128GB SSD + 1TB HDD + DVD±RW + 500W PSU + mATX case for just NT$3,000 (US$108) to replace my Dad's Q8300. This little fella can run all my apps and games with no issues.

One strange thing: I can't update its BIOS/UEFI with Asus' official one downloaded from their website (error message: "image outdated"), and the startup splash screen shows "Lemel" (a brand under Synnex and a local distributor of Asus) instead of Asus. No observable defect so I might just leave its UEFI as is.

That sounds like you got an OEM board made by "Asus" but with a custom bios for said OEM. HP is notorius for doing this in the 1995-2010 era, and Gateway using Intel boards before that.

If you "NEED" to update the bios for something like CPU support, you should be able to get the update from the OEM. If everything is working, I actually recommend not touching it. Even my new x570 board is one bios update behind, but its working perfectly. *knocks on wood*

It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potatoes.

Reply 1463 of 2070, by TrashPanda

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luckybob wrote on 2022-02-09, 02:57:

When I build my rig, I seriously considered going with AIO water cooling for the CPU. Had I chosen to do so, I would have gotten the large 360 from Corsair (go big or go home, amirite?), but honestly, the price/performance is NOT there. The NH-D15 is an *absolute unit* and is only a few degrees warmer than an said Corsiar AIO @ double the cost. This video from LTT was very helpful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23vjWtUpItk (I miss pre-covid twink Linus)

All that said, my 6900xt came with an AIO and that was worth EVERY penny. top-tier GPUs probably use 2x the power of a CPU. You can't even find a single slot gpu to save your soul for anything made in the last decade. Hell even the piss-ant 1030 I have in my garage PC uses an asinine, passively cooled, abomination. I was using said 6900xt to keep my garage warm, and the aio made it silent and allowed for clocks that were an easy 2600mhz (up from 2200 stock).

My first new computer was a 2.4ghz pressHOTT, and I ran my own watercooling thanks to Danger Den. (I still have all the parts). It worked very well, but I never got the performance boost that people get today. That said, water-cooling is a niche product, at best. Its only tangible benefits are for the bleeding edge hardware and anyone who just wants to swing their dick around. (A completely legitimate reason, btw)

AIO cooling hasn't been niche for years and I think the distinction between AIO and Custom loop needs to be made as Custom loop is still very much niche and likely will remain that way, the NH D15 is a tremendous cooler but its practical use is limited to only the cases and motherboards that support its tremendous size and girth. There are other coolers but they are further down the TDP list and are not designed for CPUs that can draw 400+ watts. (My 10980xe can draw 600+ watts when running at 5ghz)

I think a lot of people still assume that CPUs are not power hungry when the opposite is true 12/24, 14/28, 16/32 core CPUs can and do use just as much power as any of the top end GPUs and are also able to spike much higher when turbo boosting, Alder Lake is one of the hottest running CPUs intel has released recently and the 12900k version of it puts out tremendous amounts of heat when running at its full turbo boost of 5.3ghz, now the NH D15 might be able to handle that for short bursts but I would be willing to put money on a 360 AIO doing a far better job of keeping it under throttle temps.

I think people need to get out of the mind set that CPUs are still benign little power sipping devices, they are not and haven't been since AMD decided that ALL the cores were required and gave Intel a swift kick in the arse, its why you see motherboards with 16 phase 70amp power stages.

Last edited by TrashPanda on 2022-02-09, 03:29. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 1464 of 2070, by dormcat

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luckybob wrote on 2022-02-09, 03:06:

That sounds like you got an OEM board made by "Asus" but with a custom bios for said OEM. HP is notorius for doing this in the 1995-2010 era, and Gateway using Intel boards before that.

If you "NEED" to update the bios for something like CPU support, you should be able to get the update from the OEM. If everything is working, I actually recommend not touching it. Even my new x570 board is one bios update behind, but its working perfectly. *knocks on wood*

I think so as well. Most used systems at that price range have no independent video card, let alone a GTX 650 Ti, plus the RAM is maxed out (8+8 DDR3-1600) so an unupgradable BIOS is totally tolerable.

Reply 1465 of 2070, by luckybob

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@trashpanda

I'd like to draw a line between certain processors. The cutting edge for any series will obviously have different requirements. WCing in general becomes tremendously important if you are building a compact system, or if you intend to overclock the snot of hardware. I've built my own WC loops, back before it was "cool". When you used RV water pumps, silicone glue, and car radiators. I fully understand anecdotal evidence is anecdotal, but as a long time observer, the number of people who "get their feet wet" is miniscule to the number that just build a system.

I will acquiesce, AIO's are more popular than ever, but I also want to point out, they are not really worth the extra cost, if a large heatpipe cooler will fit. Every system built by the end user will be totally unique. I'm not going to overclock my cpu. I gain nothing by doing so. I can also chime in and say, its been running 100% usage for several weeks and the tower is barely warm to the touch. The cpu is steady at 75C. I'm willing to bet, even in the category of people who build their own computers, watercooling makes up for <1% of the population, and if someone tole me 1% of THAT 1% built their own water cooling, I'd believe it. i'm willing to bet most people use the stock cooler, and even if they replace it, its likely to be an inexpensive air cooler like the hyper 212. (random example)

We need to be careful of being in an echo chamber here. Its very easy for a room of computer people, to agree with each other that "everyone" does a thing, when in fact, its just a percentage of a percentage. Watercooling and overclocking are fringe aka niche activities.

It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potatoes.

Reply 1466 of 2070, by BitWrangler

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TrashPanda wrote on 2022-02-09, 03:26:

I think a lot of people still assume that CPUs are not power hungry when the opposite is true 12/24, 14/28, 16/32 core CPUs can and do use just as much power as any of the top end GPUs and are also able to spike much higher when turbo boosting, Alder Lake is one of the hottest running CPUs intel has released recently and the 12900k version of it puts out tremendous amounts of heat when running at its full turbo boost of 5.3ghz, now the NH D15 might be able to handle that for short bursts but I would be willing to put money on a 360 AIO doing a far better job of keeping it under throttle temps.

I think people need to get out of the mind set that CPUs are still benign little power sipping devices, they are not and haven't been since AMD decided that ALL the cores were required and gave Intel a swift kick in the arse, its why you see motherboards with 16 phase 70amp power stages.

Well yah, it's the chip slingers talking up their new process power savings, while failing to mention they used it to add 25% more cores and 25% more clock speed, so your individual core is only eating 15W at 4Ghz where your oldskool CPU was eating 60W at 2Ghz. So yay, much power saving, we can stick 16 of them in one lump.

Car makers keep doing the same thing, saying they're continually making efficiency improvements, the sporty model or Canyonero still only gets 20mpg though, but now you get 500Hp instead of 400.... yay

Unicorn herding operations are proceeding, but all the totes of hens teeth and barrels of rocking horse poop give them plenty of hiding spots.

Reply 1467 of 2070, by TrashPanda

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luckybob wrote on 2022-02-09, 03:47:
@trashpanda […]
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@trashpanda

I'd like to draw a line between certain processors. The cutting edge for any series will obviously have different requirements. WCing in general becomes tremendously important if you are building a compact system, or if you intend to overclock the snot of hardware. I've built my own WC loops, back before it was "cool". When you used RV water pumps, silicone glue, and car radiators. I fully understand anecdotal evidence is anecdotal, but as a long time observer, the number of people who "get their feet wet" is miniscule to the number that just build a system.

I will acquiesce, AIO's are more popular than ever, but I also want to point out, they are not really worth the extra cost, if a large heatpipe cooler will fit. Every system built by the end user will be totally unique. I'm not going to overclock my cpu. I gain nothing by doing so. I can also chime in and say, its been running 100% usage for several weeks and the tower is barely warm to the touch. The cpu is steady at 75C. I'm willing to bet, even in the category of people who build their own computers, watercooling makes up for <1% of the population, and if someone tole me 1% of THAT 1% built their own water cooling, I'd believe it. i'm willing to bet most people use the stock cooler, and even if they replace it, its likely to be an inexpensive air cooler like the hyper 212. (random example)

We need to be careful of being in an echo chamber here. Its very easy for a room of computer people, to agree with each other that "everyone" does a thing, when in fact, its just a percentage of a percentage. Watercooling and overclocking are fringe aka niche activities.

If we are talking about the moms, pops and budget restricted out there along with the grandparents then yes you have a point, the majority would simply use whatever their PC came with. Anyone building their own gaming PC is likely to use something more exotic but if you are building your own PC then you likely have done the research to find your best options for your budget.

BitWrangler wrote on 2022-02-09, 03:53:
TrashPanda wrote on 2022-02-09, 03:26:

I think a lot of people still assume that CPUs are not power hungry when the opposite is true 12/24, 14/28, 16/32 core CPUs can and do use just as much power as any of the top end GPUs and are also able to spike much higher when turbo boosting, Alder Lake is one of the hottest running CPUs intel has released recently and the 12900k version of it puts out tremendous amounts of heat when running at its full turbo boost of 5.3ghz, now the NH D15 might be able to handle that for short bursts but I would be willing to put money on a 360 AIO doing a far better job of keeping it under throttle temps.

I think people need to get out of the mind set that CPUs are still benign little power sipping devices, they are not and haven't been since AMD decided that ALL the cores were required and gave Intel a swift kick in the arse, its why you see motherboards with 16 phase 70amp power stages.

Well yah, it's the chip slingers talking up their new process power savings, while failing to mention they used it to add 25% more cores and 25% more clock speed, so your individual core is only eating 15W at 4Ghz where your oldskool CPU was eating 60W at 2Ghz. So yay, much power saving, we can stick 16 of them in one lump.

Car makers keep doing the same thing, saying they're continually making efficiency improvements, the sporty model or Canyonero still only gets 20mpg though, but now you get 500Hp instead of 400.... yay

Im unsure if you are angry at multicore shenanigans or happy about it, you can be a bit hard to read sometimes cause your posts can be a bit out there 🤣 ..like a few other Canadians I know of who have a way with words.

Reply 1468 of 2070, by luckybob

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TrashPanda wrote on 2022-02-09, 04:00:

If we are talking about the moms, pops and budget restricted out there along with the grandparents then yes you have a point, the majority would simply use whatever their PC came with. Anyone building their own gaming PC is likely to use something more exotic but if you are building your own PC then you likely have done the research to find your best options for your budget.

I'm fairly certain, most people are "budget restricted". It's why so many people watch youtubers build $5000 machines every week. (or whenever) Hell, its why most of us are here. I sure as hell couldn't afford a dual Pentium Pro until they were sold for scrap on ebay. Half of the damn point of dicking around with old hardware is to satisfy that 20+ year itch that you got as a child.

I feel there is a tangible overlap for premium air coolers and AIO water, and every person building or maintaining a machine has a choice to make for themselves. It was my personal choice to yell "YOLO" as I maxed out 3 cards to build my machine. I could have easily gotten an AIO. In fact, my old case was the Thermaltake Tower 900. A case with the specific design intention to run massive water-cooling and to flaunt it. The plan during covid was to make a dual loop with my old dual xeon board and video card. Watercooling is fun as hell, but I have to also say, it was purely for aesthetics. That plan was upended in December when I got the AIO cooled video card. The tubing just wasn't long enough to wrap behind the motherboard, and I also was not going to void a warrantee on a expensive card like a 6900xt.

I think this horse is thoroughly beaten at this point.

It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potatoes.

Reply 1470 of 2070, by luckybob

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BitWrangler wrote on 2022-02-09, 03:53:

Well yah, it's the chip slingers talking up their new process power savings, while failing to mention they used it to add 25% more cores and 25% more clock speed, so your individual core is only eating 15W at 4Ghz where your oldskool CPU was eating 60W at 2Ghz. So yay, much power saving, we can stick 16 of them in one lump.

I'd like to play devil's advocate here. You are 100% correct from a certain point.

The 5950x I have, it is currently consuming 130W while doing etherium mining. At least according to the built-in monitoring. It replaced a dual 8c/16t xeon. Each chip consumed 150w. https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/p … e-3-40-ghz.html

Quite a bit of power savings, eh? Excluding the max turbo, the clocks are even comparable! https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-amd … _e5_2687w_v2-83 If you look at benchmarks, the new chip absolutely curb stomps my old one. I will admit, the benchmarks should be taken with a chunk of salt, but i'm not going to invest a weekend of testing for a one-time forum post.

But the point of my argument here is, IPC has improved every generation of CPU. To say nothing of low power modes, and the fact, if your video render takes 25% less time, even with a cpu that takes the same power, that's a 25% savings in power still overall. Not to go too far off on a tangent, but that was the point when Intel Released the ATOM processors. Those things ran off the whiff of an oily rag. (for the day) They only failed because OEMs put them into laptops with windows 7 and 2gb of ram.

@trashpanda

I have 3 ALR machines. I need SIX overdrives for one machine. The price of the OD chips makes me very sad.

It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potatoes.

Reply 1471 of 2070, by TrashPanda

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luckybob wrote on 2022-02-09, 04:37:
I'd like to play devil's advocate here. You are 100% correct from a certain point. […]
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BitWrangler wrote on 2022-02-09, 03:53:

Well yah, it's the chip slingers talking up their new process power savings, while failing to mention they used it to add 25% more cores and 25% more clock speed, so your individual core is only eating 15W at 4Ghz where your oldskool CPU was eating 60W at 2Ghz. So yay, much power saving, we can stick 16 of them in one lump.

I'd like to play devil's advocate here. You are 100% correct from a certain point.

The 5950x I have, it is currently consuming 130W while doing etherium mining. At least according to the built-in monitoring. It replaced a dual 8c/16t xeon. Each chip consumed 150w. https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/p … e-3-40-ghz.html

Quite a bit of power savings, eh? Excluding the max turbo, the clocks are even comparable! https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-amd … _e5_2687w_v2-83 If you look at benchmarks, the new chip absolutely curb stomps my old one. I will admit, the benchmarks should be taken with a chunk of salt, but i'm not going to invest a weekend of testing for a one-time forum post.

But the point of my argument here is, IPC has improved every generation of CPU. To say nothing of low power modes, and the fact, if your video render takes 25% less time, even with a cpu that takes the same power, that's a 25% savings in power still overall. Not to go too far off on a tangent, but that was the point when Intel Released the ATOM processors. Those things ran off the whiff of an oily rag. (for the day) They only failed because OEMs put them into laptops with windows 7 and 2gb of ram.

@trashpanda

I have 3 ALR machines. I need SIX overdrives for one machine. The price of the OD chips makes me very sad.

Big OOF right there, not even sure I have seen six for sale on eBay, I only found the one and it was price higher than what I can buy a new CPU for.

That 5950x sure is a beast, wish windows would handle threads properly, its got a nasty habit of thread switching which makes the 5950x spin up sleeping cores only to have the thread handler move the thread back to the original core two second later. IIRC Intel turned the atom cores into the E cores in Alder Lake or at least a version of the Skylake Atom cores were used, they are great for low power tasks but horrible when tasked to do everything a high performance CPU would be expected to handle.

I had a little Atom based computer and it could last for days on the battery it had, it really impressed me just how good Intel is with low powered parts.

Reply 1472 of 2070, by BitWrangler

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TrashPanda wrote on 2022-02-09, 04:00:

Im unsure if you are angry at multicore shenanigans or happy about it, you can be a bit hard to read sometimes cause your posts can be a bit out there 🤣 ..like a few other Canadians I know of who have a way with words.

I guess it's sarcastically lambasting the marketing where they want to be credited for both a drastic reduction in power while having a drastic increase in computing power, leading to maybe a marginal decrease or increase in actual power. Some things as bob says there's better power savings from reduced execution time. But other things, gaming for instance, with the tendency to turn up the settings as much as it will take, then basically it matters per hour. Likewise a programmer might do test compiles more often if he can, basically keep it busy whatever.

I don't know how to take me either... I sometimes overuse the smileys when I'm being more serious and underuse them when I'm totally joking.

Unicorn herding operations are proceeding, but all the totes of hens teeth and barrels of rocking horse poop give them plenty of hiding spots.

Reply 1473 of 2070, by luckybob

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...wish windows would handle threads properly, its got a nasty habit of thread switching which makes the 5950x spin up sleeping cores only to have the thread handler move the thread back to the original core two second later...

Its an artificial "limitation". W10 home is tuned for "home" machines. What's the point of a server-grade scheduler on grandma's Dell?

https://www.anandtech.com/show/15483/amd-thre … -3990x-review/3

Now the thing is, Workstation and Enterprise are built with multiple processor groups in mind, whereas Pro is not. This has comes through scheduler adjustments, which aren’t immediately apparent without digging deeper into the finer elements of the design. We saw significant differences in performance.

I've been using the pro workstation version since release. (its even activated) I think the problem for W10/11 was the (literal/figurative) explosion of high core count chips that are in the home space in the last few years. Competition between AMD/Intel has been fierce and I'd wager both companies accelerated their chip releases beyond what Microshaft was planning on supporting in W10/11, hence 11's half-baked release.

It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potatoes.

Reply 1474 of 2070, by TrashPanda

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luckybob wrote on 2022-02-09, 04:56:
Its an artificial "limitation". W10 home is tuned for "home" machines. What's the point of a server-grade scheduler on grandma […]
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...wish windows would handle threads properly, its got a nasty habit of thread switching which makes the 5950x spin up sleeping cores only to have the thread handler move the thread back to the original core two second later...

Its an artificial "limitation". W10 home is tuned for "home" machines. What's the point of a server-grade scheduler on grandma's Dell?

https://www.anandtech.com/show/15483/amd-thre … -3990x-review/3

Now the thing is, Workstation and Enterprise are built with multiple processor groups in mind, whereas Pro is not. This has comes through scheduler adjustments, which aren’t immediately apparent without digging deeper into the finer elements of the design. We saw significant differences in performance.

I've been using the pro workstation version since release. (its even activated) I think the problem for W10/11 was the (literal/figurative) explosion of high core count chips that are in the home space in the last few years. Competition between AMD/Intel has been fierce and I'd wager both companies accelerated their chip releases beyond what Microshaft was planning on supporting in W10/11, hence 11's half-baked release.

The explosion of cores did have MS on the backfoot, even AMD was assisting them in getting the scheduler updated, going from 8 logical processors to 16 then 32 in less than two years likely had them running around like headless chickens.

Reply 1475 of 2070, by RandomStranger

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TrashPanda wrote on 2022-02-08, 20:38:

hardware that is designed to be ran at limits that air coolers can barely handle

And that is what I have problems with. Hardware for home use should never need water cooling to work optimally. Most CPUs you mention are oriented more towards work stations, but the cooler you mentioned is a 1.3kg heat sink with 2x140mm fans that doesn't fit in most common PC cases. It should be more than unnecessary for all CPUs intended for home use without OC.

sreq.png retrogamer-s.png

Reply 1476 of 2070, by ruthan

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Custom water-cooling is hell, even its bigger admires suffers some ridiculous fails.. as wait ffew hours to change something in system, but All in one water coolers are just plug and play, its almost same effort like air cooler, only you have to have some more place in case (but cpu / memory etc area is after that much cleaner and more accessible) and its 8 or so more screws to mount main block.
There are quite cheap smaller blocks, which are still better than air coolers and some reasonable priced blocks.. price noise ratio is there and if want more silence you everytime could throw aways bundled fans and mount some Noctuas..

Im old goal oriented goatman, i care about facts and freedom, not about egos+prejudices. Hoarding=sickness. If you want respect, gain it by your behavior. I hate stupid SW limits, SW=virtual world, everything should be possible if you have enough raw HW.

Reply 1477 of 2070, by appiah4

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I think even AIO watercooling is a headache with little to no merit..

Retronautics: A digital gallery of my retro computers, hardware and projects.

Reply 1478 of 2070, by Shagittarius

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luckybob wrote on 2022-02-09, 04:16:
TrashPanda wrote on 2022-02-09, 04:00:

If we are talking about the moms, pops and budget restricted out there along with the grandparents then yes you have a point, the majority would simply use whatever their PC came with. Anyone building their own gaming PC is likely to use something more exotic but if you are building your own PC then you likely have done the research to find your best options for your budget.

We need to be careful of being in an echo chamber here. Its very easy for a room of computer people, to agree with each other that "everyone" does a thing, when in fact, its just a percentage of a percentage.

I'm fairly certain, most people are "budget restricted". It's why so many people watch youtubers build $5000 machines every week. (or whenever) Hell, its why most of us are here.

Everyone talks from personal experience it's an opinion. I don't have to try to talk from a neutral standpoint, but if you feel that way maybe you should take your own advice.

I use AIOs in all my builds. Bulky fans and heatsyncs that reduce access to MB components suck.

Reply 1479 of 2070, by BitWrangler

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Dang, one got away, not super special, but spotted an upgrade takeout parts lot locally, H110M-A motherboard, with unknown CPU installed, P4 era PSU, 4GB DDR4 and asking was only $15 ... got my wife to rearrange stuff so I had transport... went back to the ad to contact seller SOLD...

Anyhoo. Figured that even lowest CPU in that board would be faster than C2Q so worth it for a "modern" box, even if it got secondary duties. Pretty lowly board though.

Unicorn herding operations are proceeding, but all the totes of hens teeth and barrels of rocking horse poop give them plenty of hiding spots.