VOGONS


Reply 301 of 596, by Mu0n

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At approximately 11:45, I'll be back in my office and can shoot you the config you need for a successful run of Duke3d.

Please don't throw everything in the garbage before then 😉

1Bit Fever Dreams: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9YYXWX1SxBhh1YB-feIPPw
DOS Fever Dreams: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIUn0Dp6PM8DBTF-5g0nvcw

Reply 302 of 596, by Achernar

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NachtRave wrote on 2022-02-23, 14:23:

@Achernar, that's about the same behavior I'm seeing, also. I can get Dos 6.22 to at least fdisk and format /s the drive successfully, and copy over boot disk files, but nothing much beyond that. I guess it's at least something, but definitely not ideal by any stretch.

I have tried SD cards of 4GB, 32GB, 64GB, 128GB, and 512GB, and I have a 2GB card coming tomorrow just to verify that the SD class (SD SDHC SDXC etc) isn't at fault.

I apologize, I haven't previously read that you have already tried other SD cards.
Just for the sake of curiosity, I used a new 8 Gb SDHC on my old computer.

I'll wait other posts there because I'd like to figure out the problem, too.

I hope that a 2 Gb SD will work.

Reply 303 of 596, by Mu0n

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config.sys:

BUFFERS=40,0
FILES=40
DOS=UMB
LASTDRIVE=H
FCBS=4,0
DOS=HIGH
DEVICE=C:\DOS\HIMEM.SYS /testmem:off /max=4096

autoexec.bat:
PATH c:\dos

(nothing special here, sound blaster/sound card settings, etc. I can load the mouse here, but it's not necessary for duke3d).

1Bit Fever Dreams: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9YYXWX1SxBhh1YB-feIPPw
DOS Fever Dreams: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIUn0Dp6PM8DBTF-5g0nvcw

Reply 304 of 596, by NachtRave

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Don't worry about helping me set up the config.sys/autoexec.bat for my stuff, I am fairly well versed in such from just retro gaming in general (I remember a game called Seal Team being one of the most difficult due to its super hungry conventional memory consumption). I'm running similar, but it doesn't really matter because the SD card, when it decides to stop working, just stops working and I have to reboot entirely.

On a plus note, I did manage to follow your dialogue with 640k!isenough and got my Crystal Audio chip working and producing music/sounds. I can get the nice X2GS wavetable playback going - little victories!

I did figure out some things though with the SD Card - my current hunch is that how these files are being copied over might be screwing with the allocation table. I was able to get DOOM to copy over for some reason just fine, but a lot of these other games (admittingly being unzipped and thrown around and renamed willy nilly) have files/folders that go beyond 8 characters. I am thinking that when I copy certain files/folders over that may have some other b.s. attached to it, the minute they are accessed it throws the SD card completely off and it gets confused and goes into an unrecoverable cannot read state. That might explain why I could install Win98 but couldn't initialize it, alas.

On a plus note, it looks like the solder job I've done is correct afaik. So from here on out it is unlikely to be a board/electronics issue and probably more software / sd card related.

Reply 305 of 596, by rasteri

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I've never had these problems with the SD card on any of the boards I've built. If you have a multimeter could you check all the SD card pins are really connected to the SOM pins? SD cards can partially operate with some of the data lines missing so I'm wondering if that might be it

Reply 306 of 596, by NachtRave

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rasteri wrote on 2022-02-23, 18:31:

I've never had these problems with the SD card on any of the boards I've built. If you have a multimeter could you check all the SD card pins are really connected to the SOM pins? SD cards can partially operate with some of the data lines missing so I'm wondering if that might be it

Yup, I have done exactly that already. Got 33 ohms from each of the SD card pins all the way back to the SOM header pins (with J4(D) pins 3 (IDE-D7) & 5 (IDE-D6) tied to ground), no shorts between adjacent pins. I even removed the decoupling capacitor in the circuit (since I saw you removed it in the peeWeeCee fork) to no avail. I also was going to try a 10uF cap before F1 to make sure there wasn't a voltage sink issue, but my scope didn't show the power lines experiencing any voltage drops.

Reply 307 of 596, by NachtRave

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@Rasteri: What about the ferrite beads? I couldn't find BLM31PG601SN1L rated at 600 ohms / 1.5A in stock, so I went with a slightly beefier BLM31KN601SH1L rated at 600 ohms / 2.9A -- would this affect the circuit at all? Lemme know if you think of anything else I could throw my meter/scope onto and take a closer look at. I very much appreciate your help.

Reply 308 of 596, by Mu0n

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What did you use for the polyfuse? Is it possible your board loads up a few more devices (USB peripherals) during the win98se launch and it hangs because it trips it? It would normally reboot but maybe there's a halt behavior as well? I'm not keen on trying to find a hardware solution for your woes, I'm grasping at straws. Please try my img tonight 😀

Have you tried a better quality power supply?

(sent you a DM @NachtRave)

1Bit Fever Dreams: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9YYXWX1SxBhh1YB-feIPPw
DOS Fever Dreams: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIUn0Dp6PM8DBTF-5g0nvcw

Reply 309 of 596, by rasteri

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NachtRave wrote on 2022-02-23, 20:24:

@Rasteri: What about the ferrite beads? I couldn't find BLM31PG601SN1L rated at 600 ohms / 1.5A in stock, so I went with a slightly beefier BLM31KN601SH1L rated at 600 ohms / 2.9A -- would this affect the circuit at all?

Nah, they only affect the soundcard really.

Reply 310 of 596, by NachtRave

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Mu0n wrote on 2022-02-23, 20:30:

What did you use for the polyfuse? Is it possible your board loads up a few more devices (USB peripherals) during the win98se launch and it hangs because it trips it? It would normally reboot but maybe there's a halt behavior as well?

Same as listed in the BOM, and I used a separate powered USB hub when I was trying with the external USB CD-ROM/Floppy drive, as mentioned in LGR's video. I am not even using anything on the USB lines at the moment and still getting the SD card issue.

Mu0n wrote on 2022-02-23, 20:30:

Have you tried a better quality power supply?

I am using the 5v 3A supplies that are common in RasPi circles, with the integrated switch on the cord. I can certainly try hooking it up to my much beefier bench supply but I doubt there will be a difference. Will let you know (I'll have to break out some stuff to adapt to microUSB input).

Update: Tested with my bench supply, running 5.1v (similar to RasPi 4 cords), got about 0.84~0.87 amps being pulled, same SD card issue though. 🙁 -- Maybe I should try to reinstall Win98SE from scratch using this setup tho just to make sure it wasn't a bad write that caused the inability to read? Will do that next just to make sure to cancel out that possibility.

rasteri wrote on 2022-02-23, 22:16:
NachtRave wrote on 2022-02-23, 20:24:

@Rasteri: What about the ferrite beads? I couldn't find BLM31PG601SN1L rated at 600 ohms / 1.5A in stock, so I went with a slightly beefier BLM31KN601SH1L rated at 600 ohms / 2.9A -- would this affect the circuit at all?

Nah, they only affect the soundcard really.

Yeah I suspected not. 😒

Perhaps it could be one of the other components that I had to sub for? I doubt it is but just for sake of double checking... Here are the components I had to use a different one for than what was listed in the BOM on PCBWay:

C15, C16, C38, C39 -- CAP CER 10UF X7R 1206 -- Called for GRM31CR61E106KA12L, I used TMK316AB7106KLHT -- I assume unlikely to cause issues with SD Card though given these are used in WaveTable and Audio jack, both of which are working fine (X2GS was so nice to be hearing).

FB1, FB2 -- FERRITE Bead 1500 mA 1206 -- Called for BLM31PG601SN1L, I used BLM31KN601SH1L (2.9A vs 1.5A current limit, same ohm rating tho) -- Again as you mentioned is likely not it since its only used in filtering the 5v for the audio chip, which is working fine.

R1, R2, R3, R4, R5 -- RES 4.7K 0603 -- Called for TNPW06034K70BEEA, I used ERA-3AEB472V -- Again unlikely to cause issues since only used in Gameport as pullups and I tested a Gravis Gamepad in the Gameport in CWDIAG.exe (part of the Crystal DOS tools) and it was working fine.

R18, R28, R29, R30, R31, R32 -- RES 33ohm 0603 -- Called for ERJ-3GEYJ330V, I used CRCW060333R0JNEAC -- While this is on the SD lines, this is a 33ohm resistor, hardly a difficult thing to mess up. Maybe I am wrong though? Could you take a look? Mouser links:
Called for ERJ-3GEYJ330V: https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Panasoni … nKuLIp3NA%3D%3D
I used CRCW060333R0JNEAC: https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-D … 52BFtEJlGOxo%3D

R20 -- RES 47Kohm 1206 -- Called for ERA-8AEB473V, I used RG3216P-4702-BT5 -- Again unlikely since this is used in the PC speaker input into the mono input line, which is working fine (I hear the beeps and boops from the speaker just fine).

R21 -- RES 4.7Kohm 1206 -- Called for CRCW12064K70JNEA, I used ERJ-8GEYJ472V -- Again unlikely since this is used as a pulldown for the PC speaker input, which works as mentioned.

R22, R23, R24, R25 -- RES 49.9kohm 1206 -- Called for ERA8AEB49R9V, I used RT1206BRD0749R9L -- Again, unlikely, used in LAN circuit, which I haven't yet tested but again, hard to mess up a resistor.

Reply 312 of 596, by ockiller

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Just out of curiosity, can you confirm you have the same problems without Virtual 8086 mode (no EMM386), who may use some undetected memory mapped devices as RAM, which would cause any sort of troubles, including those that you have (I'm not sure, I guess the Win98 installer should be smart enough) ?

Reply 313 of 596, by NachtRave

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rasteri wrote on 2022-02-24, 10:44:

What about R12-R17? Are they definitely 47K?

If so then I'm officially out of ideas without being able to see the board. I'm happy to take a look at it if you can send me it, hit me up in DMs.

They are.

Another data point: Half the time when I reset, it isn't always a given that the SOM will detect the primary IDE (SD card adapter) and then ofc won't boot up at all. Half the time I am sitting there having to reset the board entirely a few times until it picks it up in BIOS detection. This may point towards the SOM itself being maybe damaged or otherwise malfunctioning? Perhaps there a difference between the SOM304RD53VIDE1 and the SOM304RD52VINE1 you use in your videos? (Should be able to use either one, as the only difference is the extra Flash that I have no idea how to use anyways).

Maybe that extra Flash though is causing issues with the IDE primary port tho? Maybe they put it also on the primary IDE (just a wild guess)? There is an option in the BIOS for it (default is disabled), something about FFD Flash. Isn't that Flash a part of the BIOS itself tho, nothing to do with drives?

What if I removed the 33ohm resistors and just pass-through'ed them? Is the resistor on the line there even needed (or, what are they exactly doing)? Is the SOM itself doing some sort of wizardry internally that we don't know about? I also e-mailed Spencer at ICOP - one of their engineers who posted their e-mail on the PCBWay page. Will try to see if he responds.

ockiller wrote on 2022-02-24, 10:56:

Just out of curiosity, can you confirm you have the same problems without Virtual 8086 mode (no EMM386), who may use some undetected memory mapped devices as RAM, which would cause any sort of troubles, including those that you have (I'm not sure, I guess the Win98 installer should be smart enough) ?

Oh trust me, I am well aware of all the headaches that EMS, XMS, UMB, etc can cause, along with EMM386 (or JEMM386 or JEMEX, or HIMEMX, etc). That's part of the fun of getting DOS games in general to work :3 (and why Win98 is a good DOS platform given you can customize those settings on a per-application basis).

You do bring up an interesting point about the undetected mapped devices, as when I start up in Dos 6.22 mode with JEMM386 (or similar) it points out that there is a reserved memory block there. I also noticed, in one of the menus in the BIOS there, to reserve even more memory. Alas, when it starts coming down to memory modes and other such things then I am not as well versed. As rasteri points out, default BIOS settings should just work (cue Todd Howard).

Reply 314 of 596, by rasteri

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NachtRave wrote on 2022-02-24, 11:27:

Another data point: Half the time when I reset, it isn't always a given that the SOM will detect the primary IDE (SD card adapter) and then ofc won't boot up at all. Half the time I am sitting there having to reset the board entirely a few times until it picks it up in BIOS detection. This may point towards the SOM itself being maybe damaged or otherwise malfunctioning? Perhaps there a difference between the SOM304RD53VIDE1 and the SOM304RD52VINE1 you use in your videos? (Should be able to use either one, as the only difference is the extra Flash that I have no idea how to use anyways).

AHA! I didn't realise you were using a different SOM, sorry I somehow missed that.

Yes that's almost certainly what's going on here - the onboard flash is conflicting with the SD card.

There are two flashes on your board, one is an SPI flash and the other is directly connected to the IDE channel. Probably the bios option to disable it is disabling the SPI flash rather than the IDE one.

I dunno if we can disable the IDE flash but we should be able to move the SD card to be IDE slave rather than IDE master. I'll do some investigating and get back to you.

Reply 316 of 596, by NachtRave

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rasteri wrote on 2022-02-24, 11:36:

In the meantime you could just remove the SD card and try installing Windows 98 to the onboard flash 😀

I'm not exactly certain that that is what is there, though, is the thing. Here's a doc I found with a bit more detail: http://ftp.emacinc.com/LegacyProducts/SBC/dri … on_Vortex86.pdf -> Doesn't really look like it's an IDE thing, it looks more like it's some sort of floppy drive simulator. I'm not sure that it necessarily even exists on the primary IDE port. The option for it is in the Boot menu, anyways.

Definitely worth looking into. I might try to find a SOM304RD52VINE1 specifically now though, just for troubleshooting.

The other SOM modules I have are the SOM304RD52VIBE1, which is the 256MB DDR2 /w 512 MB flash. Those exhibit same issue, so who knows.

If a board revision is in order to support these, though, that's fine as well. Most of my current investment is in the SOM modules, anyways.

Oh, and I don't mind sending you the current board I'm working on with the SOM I'm using, just so you have it to play with and test. Let's hold off until you've taken a look and can determine if this flash thing really is a culprit here or if it's something else entirely.

Reply 317 of 596, by rasteri

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NachtRave wrote on 2022-02-24, 12:15:

I'm not exactly certain that that is what is there, though, is the thing. Here's a doc I found with a bit more detail: http://ftp.emacinc.com/LegacyProducts/SBC/dri … on_Vortex86.pdf -> Doesn't really look like it's an IDE thing, it looks more like it's some sort of floppy drive simulator. I'm not sure that it necessarily even exists on the primary IDE port. The option for it is in the Boot menu, anyways.

There are two flashes on your SOM. The document you linked is talking about the SPI flash. As you say it seems to emulate a floppy drive.

There's ALSO the SST Flash Disk, which is connected to the IDE channel (or if not I can't imagine where else it would be connected). This emulates a hard drive, and so you should be able to install windows on it.

It seems though that you have to initialize it using a program called pc104.exe that I can't find. Info in this document - http://www.a2s.pl/products/icop/linkres/icop- … 56e2_manual.pdf

Reply 318 of 596, by Mu0n

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NachtRave wrote on 2022-02-24, 08:40:

Same as listed in the BOM, and I used a separate powered USB hub when I was trying with the external USB CD-ROM/Floppy drive, as mentioned in LGR's video. I am not even using anything on the USB lines at the moment and still getting the SD card issue.

I used the BOM polyfuse, but at this point, which BOM? The one on circuitmaker, or the one on pcbway? The one I originally got from the project caused me a lot of troubles:

1) dos generally worked fine, unless I used a VGA to HDMI converter, which uses a USB plug to route sound into HDMI, which I tested on my TV. As soon as I tried to run Second Reality (legendary demo), it hard reset the machine.
2) I generally had bad luck running win98se without freezing, unless I chose safe mode
3) one of my 2 machines refused to draw power at all, I got something like a varying level of voltage between 2 and 3V and it never booted. The LED light on the SOM was also faint and abnormal.

This was the original project's suggested fuse: (hold current 0.750A, trip current 1.5 A, max voltage 6V)
https://www.mouser.ca/ProductDetail/576-0603L075SLYR

which is pretty bad because the SOM documentation explicity says it can go up to 900 mA under max load.

This is what I ended up with: (hold current 1A, trip current 1.6A, max voltage 6V)
https://www.mouser.ca/ProductDetail/576-0603L100SLYR

I suggest bridging the polyfuse's pads with solder to rapidly test if things improve for you. (on top of using my images, I'm sending you a link to my DOS one and prepping my win one)

NachtRave wrote on 2022-02-24, 08:40:

I am using the 5v 3A supplies that are common in RasPi circles, with the integrated switch on the cord. I can certainly try hooking it up to my much beefier bench supply but I doubt there will be a difference. Will let you know (I'll have to break out some stuff to adapt to microUSB input).

Update: Tested with my bench supply, running 5.1v (similar to RasPi 4 cords), got about 0.84~0.87 amps being pulled, same SD card issue though. 🙁 -- Maybe I should try to reinstall Win98SE from scratch using this setup tho just to make sure it wasn't a bad write that caused the inability to read? Will do that next just to make sure to cancel out that possibility.

That part should be good.

Last edited by Mu0n on 2022-02-24, 12:51. Edited 1 time in total.

1Bit Fever Dreams: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9YYXWX1SxBhh1YB-feIPPw
DOS Fever Dreams: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIUn0Dp6PM8DBTF-5g0nvcw

Reply 319 of 596, by NachtRave

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rasteri wrote on 2022-02-24, 12:23:
There are two flashes on your SOM. The document you linked is talking about the SPI flash. As you say it seems to emulate a flop […]
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NachtRave wrote on 2022-02-24, 12:15:

I'm not exactly certain that that is what is there, though, is the thing. Here's a doc I found with a bit more detail: http://ftp.emacinc.com/LegacyProducts/SBC/dri … on_Vortex86.pdf -> Doesn't really look like it's an IDE thing, it looks more like it's some sort of floppy drive simulator. I'm not sure that it necessarily even exists on the primary IDE port. The option for it is in the Boot menu, anyways.

There are two flashes on your SOM. The document you linked is talking about the SPI flash. As you say it seems to emulate a floppy drive.

There's ALSO the SST Flash Disk, which is connected to the IDE channel (or if not I can't imagine where else it would be connected). This emulates a hard drive, and so you should be able to install windows on it.

It seems though that you have to initialize it using a program called pc104.exe that I can't find. Info in this document - http://www.a2s.pl/products/icop/linkres/icop- … 56e2_manual.pdf

Well, when you set the FDD flash option to “External” it will boot the system up on A: drive off a FreeDOS like boot environment. Included some screen caps. It has a folder in there for an SPITOOL.EXE, which there are some pdfs for online.

I believe the 6056E2 is for an actual external module itself, not the SST NAND flash, though? 😖 -- Edit: Yes, it is this entire board thing: http://www.a2s.pl/en/icop-6056e2-p-3838.html

Are you sure it’s on the primary IDE tho? I cannot find anything to hint towards such. One thing I did notice was that if the FFD flash is enabled it comes up as a SCSI device. Let me play around some more to see which bus/channel it’s trying to use.

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