Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-04-10, 14:33:

That said, I did find it interesting how much performance the "TurboGL" feature can draw out of said "M" cards in Quake games. Assuming the proper driver version is used alongside a supported CPU.

Yes! From my tests it can easily hit a +50% increase. 😀

bloodem wrote on 2022-04-10, 13:28:

pa1983 wrote on 2022-04-10, 13:24:

There are better cards then a TNT2 and GF2MX dont qualify.
People sometimes overlook very potent GPU's from other makers then Nvidia.

The GeForce 2 MX has identical performance to a GeForce 256 SDR, which is why I tested it (I have many of them, while I only have 1 x GeForce 256 DDR and 1 x GeForce 256 SDR).
And, no, once you remove the CPU and memory bandwidth bottleneck, there is no card older than the GeForce 256 that can beat it in Quake 3 (I should know, I've tested most of them).

Yes a GeForce 256 is the fastest but you still dont want to understand that this contest is not about benchmarking cards with the same "settings" but getting the highest frame rate, that allows for texturs pak tweaks, configs tweaks, rewrite of the quake 3 source code etc etc, this will both even out any hardware advantages but also force people that just thinks that slapping a GeForce 256 DDR in the machine and call it done to rethink.

Here is a run I just did on a system that qualifies using our tweaked quake3 client on a not so super fast Pentium 3 system, P3 800@840 with a Matrox G400 MAX, I have non Max cards that clocks to 211 on the memory to that is almost as fast.
https://youtu.be/f9QKmeXTqtk

And I have a faster system still that would Qualify. But this is pretty good considering the hardware.
Also I hvea GF256 SDR but no DDR, yea its faster, but not by much assuming the same CPU etc.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-04-10, 14:33:

bloodem wrote on 2022-04-10, 14:18:

I'm guessing what card you're talking about, but... no, I don't see how it could ever surpass a GeForce 256 DDR in Quake 3, even with the best possible tweaks (since you can always apply the same tweaks with a GeForce 256 😁 ).

Likewise, I doubt that any card can surpass a GeForce SDR (not to mention DDR) if the rest of the system remains the same during both test attempts.

That said, I did find it interesting how much performance the "TurboGL" feature can draw out of said "M" cards in Quake games. Assuming the proper driver version is used alongside a supported CPU.

"TurboGL" feature??? You just got my attention? Tell me about. 😀

pa1983 wrote on 2022-04-10, 14:49:

Yes a GeForce 256 is the fastest but you still dont want to understand that this contest is not about benchmarking cards with the same "settings" but getting the highest frame rate, that allows for texturs pak tweaks, configs tweaks, rewrite of the quake 3 source code etc etc, this will both even out any hardware advantages but also force people that just thinks that slapping a GeForce 256 DDR in the machine and call it done to rethink.

Imagine the following scenario: two highly skilled people, who are willing to go all out and tweak the hell out of Quake 3, compile it from source, etc. One of those people has a cheap TNT2, the other has a GeForce 256 DDR. Who do you think is going to win?
That's all I'm trying to say. All things equal, a rare card like the GeForce 256 will give an edge to whoever has it. A GeForce 2 MX would not only give more skilled people a chance to compete, but it would at least partially remove the advantage that the "video card from 1999 only" creates for GeForce 256 owners.

pa1983 wrote on 2022-04-10, 14:49:

Here is a run I just did on a system that qualifies using our tweaked quake3 client on a not so super fast Pentium 3 system, P3 800@840 with a Matrox G400 MAX, I have non Max cards that clocks to 211 on the memory to that is almost as fast.
https://youtu.be/f9QKmeXTqtk

Yes, as I mentioned earlier, I tested it myself with a Pentium 3 600 @ 800 MHz and saw 238 FPS with a GeForce 2 MX (with sound / no network). Looks like crap, but... yeah. 😀

Necrodude wrote on 2022-04-10, 15:22:

"TurboGL" feature??? You just got my attention? Tell me about. 😀

The fine folks at Anandtech explain it far better than I ever could in this article.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-04-10, 15:25:

Necrodude wrote on 2022-04-10, 15:22:

"TurboGL" feature??? You just got my attention? Tell me about. 😀

The fine folks at Anandtech explain it far better than I ever could in this article.

Thanks

bloodem wrote on 2022-04-10, 15:23:

Imagine the following scenario: two highly skilled people, who are willing to go all out and tweak the hell out of Quake 3, comp […]
Show full quote

pa1983 wrote on 2022-04-10, 14:49:

Yes a GeForce 256 is the fastest but you still dont want to understand that this contest is not about benchmarking cards with the same "settings" but getting the highest frame rate, that allows for texturs pak tweaks, configs tweaks, rewrite of the quake 3 source code etc etc, this will both even out any hardware advantages but also force people that just thinks that slapping a GeForce 256 DDR in the machine and call it done to rethink.

Imagine the following scenario: two highly skilled people, who are willing to go all out and tweak the hell out of Quake 3, compile it from source, etc. One of those people has a cheap TNT2, the other has a GeForce 256 DDR. Who do you think is going to win?
That's all I'm trying to say. All things equal, a rare card like the GeForce 256 will give an edge to whoever has it. A GeForce 2 MX would not only give more skilled people a chance to compete, but it would at least partially remove the advantage that the "video card from 1999 only" creates for GeForce 256 owners.

pa1983 wrote on 2022-04-10, 14:49:

Here is a run I just did on a system that qualifies using our tweaked quake3 client on a not so super fast Pentium 3 system, P3 800@840 with a Matrox G400 MAX, I have non Max cards that clocks to 211 on the memory to that is almost as fast.
https://youtu.be/f9QKmeXTqtk

Yes, as I mentioned earlier, I tested it myself with a Pentium 3 600 @ 800 MHz and saw 238 FPS with a GeForce 2 MX (with sound / no network). Looks like crap, but... yeah. 😀

Yea but you assume everything else is equal, thats not how competitions work because not everyone will tweak to the same level.
And network is required, a part of the prof is to connect to our server braindrainlan.sytes.net before or after the benchmark run and also submit any modified files.

I intentionally did not pick my GeForce 256 SDR (do not have a DDR) system because that would beat your 238fps, but that system has a much better CPU/RAM combo.
I have gone up with both G400 and G400 MAX and GeFroce 256 SDR against GeFofce 256 DDR machines many times and came out on top with the same CPU rule set.
A GeForce 256 SDR or DDR is not a guaranteed win.

I personally dont understand the negativity, people can win a Free Voodoo3, why complain and post benchmarks when you could submit a valid score.

Yeah! This competition is about having fun. Exploring how to improve speeds.

What is the best driver/direct X combo? How do we increase speed in win98. What is the best chipset drivers. Best graphics drivers? Can we do something about the Quake3 sound engine? Can we improve it?
And so on. There is a lot to explore. 😀

pa1983 wrote on 2022-04-10, 15:38:

Yea but you assume everything else is equal, thats not how competitions work because not everyone will tweak to the same level.

Well, that's how analytical thinking works, actually. 😀 My brain always assumes that what seems impossible at first glance, might actually happen if all stars align.

pa1983 wrote on 2022-04-10, 15:38:

And network is required, a part of the prof is to connect to our server braindrainlan.sytes.net before or after the benchmark run and also submit any modified files.

I tested out of pure curiosity to see how a TNT2 Pro compares to a GeForce 2 MX (256 SDR equivalent). I don't plan on actually submitting anything (I already have all the Voodoo cards I need, anyway).

pa1983 wrote on 2022-04-10, 15:38:

I personally dont understand the negativity, people can win a Free Voodoo3, why complain and post benchmarks when you could submit a valid score.

No negativity on my part (unless you see normal, logical suggestions in a negative light). But in the end, it was just that: a simple suggestion of allowing the GeForce 2 MX as well, because I believe it would boost the number of submissions for this competition (most people with lower end 1999 cards will probably not bother going through the trouble of trying to tweak Q3, since they'll automatically assume that they are at a disadvantage - and they wouldn't exactly be wrong).

[/quote]
it was just that: a simple suggestion of allowing the GeForce 2 MX as well, because I believe it would boost the number of submissions for this competition (most people with lower end 1999 cards will probably not bother going through the trouble of trying to tweak Q3, since they'll automatically assume that they are at a disadvantage - and they wouldn't exactly be wrong).
[/quote]

I see your point. We will think about it.

We have had the same discussion a bunch of times before, people wanting us to allow geforce 2mx cards on our lan parties. We figured that if we would allows those cards, everyone would show up with one.
And then It stops being a "1999" lan party.

About the 850mhz rule. We are well aware of that those cpus werent around back in 1999. They were released the next year.
We didnt really know exactly when stuff was released when we had our first retro lan party. So we aimed a bit high. So we were wrong. But thats how it went. We are sticking with those set of rules.

Anyway. The year after we decided to stick with the 850mhz rule and to allow socket A systems, just make it easier to people to attend. Slot A system are hard to come by.
Thats a brief history about the rules.

Edit: Here is a swedish gallery with pictures and videos from our first BiG retro Lan party in 2017.
https://www.sweclockers.com/galleri/14396-the … 7-10-29-10-2017

bloodem wrote on 2022-04-10, 17:01:

Well, that's how analytical thinking works, actually. :-) My brain always assumes that what seems impossible at first glance, mi […]
Show full quote

pa1983 wrote on 2022-04-10, 15:38:

Yea but you assume everything else is equal, thats not how competitions work because not everyone will tweak to the same level.

Well, that's how analytical thinking works, actually. 😀 My brain always assumes that what seems impossible at first glance, might actually happen if all stars align.

pa1983 wrote on 2022-04-10, 15:38:

And network is required, a part of the prof is to connect to our server braindrainlan.sytes.net before or after the benchmark run and also submit any modified files.

I tested out of pure curiosity to see how a TNT2 Pro compares to a GeForce 2 MX (256 SDR equivalent). I don't plan on actually submitting anything (I already have all the Voodoo cards I need, anyway).

pa1983 wrote on 2022-04-10, 15:38:

I personally dont understand the negativity, people can win a Free Voodoo3, why complain and post benchmarks when you could submit a valid score.

No negativity on my part (unless you see normal, logical suggestions in a negative light). But in the end, it was just that: a simple suggestion of allowing the GeForce 2 MX as well, because I believe it would boost the number of submissions for this competition (most people with lower end 1999 cards will probably not bother going through the trouble of trying to tweak Q3, since they'll automatically assume that they are at a disadvantage - and they wouldn't exactly be wrong).

So your not planing to submit anything?
But you want everyone to run of to ebay and get a 20€ GeForce 2 MX, thats gonna be interesting, so much diversity on configs right there...
If everyone with there "logic" got to alter the rules to it fit there view (parts) then we would have to allow 866, then 900 then 933 processors and so one, there always someone that dont like the rules.
But we have to make rules applies to everyone that offers the best tradeoff.

But your not taking part so why it even bothers you is beyond me and your suggestions that people should not bother is not helping so I have a hard time seeing what your adding to this.

One can just conclude that people are negative even when things are free.

Well, things are pretty much set hardware-wise. K7 has better IPC and FPU than PIII, and Quake3 is "3DNow!" optimised. Nothing beats GeForce256 DDR for the 1999 time period with engine that's defacto OpenGL gold standard.
Software-wise it seems there are no rules, which irks me too.

stef80 wrote on 2022-04-10, 17:43:

Well, things are pretty much set hardware-wise. K7 has better IPC and FPU than PIII, and Quake3 is "3DNow!" optimised. Nothing beats GeForce256 DDR for the 1999 time period.

hmm. Maybee 😀
BUT the we also have the software stuff. Thats the biggest part. Tweaking. Tweaking. Drivers. DLL:s, cfg:s, source code haxxing.
😀 There is much that can be done 😀

That's stupid, IMHO.

What about other components, is everything 1999 time period, or just CPU and GPU? 2001 board with good DDR controller would be golden for K7.

pa1983 wrote on 2022-04-10, 17:33:

So your not planing to submit anything?
But you want everyone to run of to ebay and get a 20€ GeForce 2 MX, thats gonna be interesting, so much diversity on configs right there...

This will be my last reply on the matter, since I'm getting a sense that there is indeed some negativity going on with these posts, but it's not coming from me.
No, I don't want everyone to run off to eBay. My assumption (which I believe to be reasonable), is that the GeForce 2 MX/MX400 is probably already owned by a lot of retro enthusiasts who just wanted to have a usable PC without spending a lot of money. Not only that, but a lot of people can surely find this card locally for next to nothing (I know I can), so either way, not a lot of people will be forced by my 'malicious suggestion' to run off to eBay and buy a GeForce 2 MX.

pa1983 wrote on 2022-04-10, 17:33:

If everyone with there "logic" got to alter the rules to it fit there view (parts) then we would have to allow 866, then 900 then 933 processors and so one, there always someone that dont like the rules.
But we have to make rules applies to everyone that offers the best tradeoff.

Again, just a suggestion, I'm not forcing anyone to do anything (and I lack the power to do so).
Also, it's not the same situation with CPUs like the Pentium 3, which are and have been for many years readily available (unlike the last 1999 GPU, which also happens to be a very sought-after card and a collector's item).

Anyway, there's a saying in my country that goes something like this: "talking too much is a man's future poverty", so I'll stop here.
All the best with your competition! (not entirely sure whose competition it is, anyway - I thought it was Necrodude's, but... seems that I got it wrong).

I ran off to eBay with a determination similar to Homer Simpson's barreling through the yard toward Ned Flanders' BBQ.

Doornkaat wrote on 2022-04-10, 05:34:

It says "This means the original Athlon cpu:s. Not Athlon XP, X64 and so on." in the OP, so no Palomino cores but in this post i […]
Show full quote

Imperious wrote on 2022-04-10, 04:02:

Are Athlon Palomino cores allowed?

It says "This means the original Athlon cpu:s. Not Athlon XP, X64 and so on." in the OP, so no Palomino cores but in this post it says they're allowed anyway.
I've been wondering wether Thunderbird Athlons are allowed since they're not technically "original Athlon cpu:s" and didn't release in 1999. From the wording in the rest of the post I would guess they are?
Ok, after a bit of back and forth we now know Thunderbird: yes, Palomino and other Athlon XP: no.

I guess If You do not have a Geforce DDR then You have no chance of winning.
I do have a tnt2 pro and voodoo 3 3000 so would be some fun to see what they can manage.

This was a surprise to me too. I wonder if any tweaks to the game can break the obvious superiority of the Geforce 256 DDR.
Also made me wonder why the prize is a mid-tier 1999 graphics card when you most likely need the absolute high end of 1999 to compete.

Also since AFAIK Quake III supports SMP I wonder wether a dual CPU system will be the winner or if newer single CPU boards give enough of a performance boost @850MHz to surpass dual CPU systems.

Quake III does bloody multi processing?
Obvious question on the mind of any upstanding nerd, of course. But I would not have guessed it.
So, if it's about the CPU, this may already reduce the end run to a rather small, chosen pack of owners of late dual PIII boards with DDR memory? I assume there are club cards?

stef80 wrote on 2022-04-10, 17:51:

That's stupid, IMHO.

Im not sure I follow? A good config file can more then double your framerate. Better DLL files can give a 10-15 percent FPS boost.
There are tons of tweaks that can improve the performance of Quake3. I hope I didnt misunderstand you This is a competition there the guy that gets most fps wins.

stef80 wrote on 2022-04-10, 17:51:

What about other components, is everything 1999 time period, or just CPU and GPU? 2001 board with good DDR controller would be golden for K7.

You can have any motherboard,ram etc.
There are only rules for GPU and CPU, and that you must have a sound card and network card to connect to our servers.

Cuttoon wrote on 2022-04-10, 18:37:

Quake III does bloody multi processing? Obvious question on the mind of any upstanding nerd, of course. But I would not have gue […]
Show full quote

Doornkaat wrote on 2022-04-10, 05:34:

It says "This means the original Athlon cpu:s. Not Athlon XP, X64 and so on." in the OP, so no Palomino cores but in this post i […]
Show full quote

Imperious wrote on 2022-04-10, 04:02:

Are Athlon Palomino cores allowed?

It says "This means the original Athlon cpu:s. Not Athlon XP, X64 and so on." in the OP, so no Palomino cores but in this post it says they're allowed anyway.
I've been wondering wether Thunderbird Athlons are allowed since they're not technically "original Athlon cpu:s" and didn't release in 1999. From the wording in the rest of the post I would guess they are?
Ok, after a bit of back and forth we now know Thunderbird: yes, Palomino and other Athlon XP: no.

I guess If You do not have a Geforce DDR then You have no chance of winning.
I do have a tnt2 pro and voodoo 3 3000 so would be some fun to see what they can manage.

This was a surprise to me too. I wonder if any tweaks to the game can break the obvious superiority of the Geforce 256 DDR.
Also made me wonder why the prize is a mid-tier 1999 graphics card when you most likely need the absolute high end of 1999 to compete.

Also since AFAIK Quake III supports SMP I wonder wether a dual CPU system will be the winner or if newer single CPU boards give enough of a performance boost @850MHz to surpass dual CPU systems.

Quake III does bloody multi processing?
Obvious question on the mind of any upstanding nerd, of course. But I would not have guessed it.
So, if it's about the CPU, this may already reduce the end run to a rather small, chosen pack of owners of late dual PIII boards with DDR memory? I assume there are club cards?

Yes Quake3 has multi processor support.
Add seta r_smp "1" in the quake 3 config file to activate it.

Hower you can relax. SMP is not allowed in this competition.

I just read 3DNow! support in Q3 is broken?? Hm, then it's a bit unfair Athlons XP are excluded. PIII has SSE (which Q3 uses), Thunderbirds do not. There were some performance DLLs, but those targeted Athlons XP. So, requirements should have been: clock up to 850MHz and no SSE2 support. Maybe limit the size of L2 cache to exclude mobile Bartons.