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First post, by Jo22

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Hi everyone,
Hope you're alright.

Here's an interesting video that I found recently.
It's about Star Trek, but perhaps applies to other cases, too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Rx0Y6IjBac

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

This is about personality and the philosophical dilemma about upgrading parts without loosing said personality.

At which point has something fundamentally changed?
In case of an old ship, we might agree the keel is the fundamental part.
But what about other things? PCs, for example?
If all aged parts are replaced over time, is it still the same thing?
And if so, what if we use all the aged parts and reconstruct the thing? Two originals ("Riker:2=?")?

If you like, feel free to share your ideas, opinions! 😄

Best regards,
Jo22

"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

//My video channel//

Reply 1 of 17, by Namrok

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My gut reaction is that the motherboard is the most essential part of the build. Replace that, and you essentially are starting over with another computer entirely. It's the lynchpin of whatever capabilities you can bring out of all the other hardware you attach to it. To say nothing of how if you replace the motherboard, you just about have to take the entire thing completely apart, minus drives and PSU.

Win95/DOS 7.1 - P233 MMX (@2.5 x 100 FSB), Diamond Viper V330 AGP, SB16 CT2800
Win98 - K6-2+ 500, GF2 MX, SB AWE 64 CT4500, SBLive CT4780
Win98 - Pentium III 1000, GF2 GTS, SBLive CT4760
WinXP - Athlon 64 3200+, GF 7800 GS, Audigy 2 ZS

Reply 2 of 17, by Errius

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Yes, the motherboard. I name all my computers, and when the motherboard changes, the name changes.

For systems with multiple boards (i.e. certain servers), then the system board is the key component. (i.e. where the CPU(s) and memory connect.)

“I like to dissect PCs. Don't you know I'm utterly insane?"

Reply 5 of 17, by Jo22

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^Lol. Thanks guys, you made my day. 🤣

"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

//My video channel//

Reply 6 of 17, by Errius

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I encountered a similar issue selling my old Lego sets. Trouble is, a long time ago I threw away the original boxes and put all the pieces into one big box. Splitting the sets apart in order to sell them separately raised the problem: can I honestly do this if I no longer know exactly which pieces came with each set?

“I like to dissect PCs. Don't you know I'm utterly insane?"

Reply 7 of 17, by CapnCrunch53

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It's a really interesting question, isn't it? I think the three contenders for me would be CPU, motherboard, and case. Those are the three main things that give a PC its identity IMO. I would probably lean towards the motherboard, though. That said, now that I think about it, all three of those parts have been changed once on my current PC, so maybe it really isn't the same machine anymore...

I've actually been thinking about this exact question as it relates to computer hardware recently. I have an old machine with a Willamette P4 and PC133. As you can imagine it is slow as hell. But I've got good memories with this machine; I used it as a spare machine for my sibling to play LAN games with me, I took it to LAN parties, and I used it as a dedicated server for various things. I was thinking recently of upgrading the motherboard to one with DDR, but I found myself asking whether that would make it not feel like the same machine. It's horrid slowness was, weird as it sounds, part of it's quirk.

This all sounds like nonsense to non-sentimental types, I'm sure. I get very attached to objects (to a fault) and so I think about this type of thing sometimes.

PCs, Macs, old and new... too much stuff.

Reply 8 of 17, by TrashPanda

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Had this discussion recently about Star Trek Picard, is Admiral Picard still admiral Picard seeing as he is essentially an android after the events of season 1.

Well yes, regardless of the body all of Picard's memories and experiences are intact in the new body and human identity is built upon these very things they make you the very person you are and permanently losing either one of them renders you no longer that individual. Now some people wanted to drag the argument into stupid territory about souls and shit which I refused to be drawn into since I cannot work with intangible what ifs with the question of Theseus, all I know is that people with total amnesia are not the person they were before, they wake up with a blank slate and start building a new identity with new experiences and memories and much like a PC that has had its motherboard changed and HDD blanked this new identity is not the old one.

So back to my initial point, Picard may have a new fancy synthetic body but he is still very much the same individual he was before, its much like using a transporter which is really just a fancy replicator, you die every time you use it and a perfect copy of you is rebuilt at the destination, are you still you even if just a perfect copy ?

Yes.

Oh noes, the cap let the shmooo out 😁

Reply 9 of 17, by Tetrium

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That's a really good question! And a fun thought experiment 🙂

If I were to compare it to humans, with humans atoms and molecules get replaced constantly. Some things like your skin cells are a good example of this. After 28 days the top layer of your skin has completely renewed. Is it still your same skin?

I don't know after how much time most of your original self from back then has been replaced, but an obvious one is that most of you back when you were, say, 8 years old, compared to how you are now (and I'm assuming you're an adult when reading this), most of what you are now will not have been you back when you were 8. Are you still the same person?

You'd be the same individual, but I think one could argue (and quite convincingly so imo) that you're not the same person you were back then.
Even now I'm not the same person I was like 20 years ago, but I still have my memories of then, so in a way I inherited my 20 year older (or younger depending how you would look at it!) self.

If I were to compare this to a computer, I could argue that what makes the 'personality of a computer' is its current Windows (or DOS) install. The installation will gather 'memories' and 'scars' of past changes, upgrades and parts failures. Rejuvenating is not really simple and a complete reinstall of the OS could be seen as replacing the brain of a person with a fresh one. The body would be the same but the whole person(ality) and all of its memories would be gone.

I think this is how I would see this, or at least at first glance I would 😜

Whats missing in your collections?
My retro rigs (old topic)
Interesting Vogons threads (links to Vogonswiki)
Report spammers here!

Reply 10 of 17, by TrashPanda

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Tetrium wrote on 2022-06-01, 06:26:
That's a really good question! And a fun thought experiment 🙂 […]
Show full quote

That's a really good question! And a fun thought experiment 🙂

If I were to compare it to humans, with humans atoms and molecules get replaced constantly. Some things like your skin cells are a good example of this. After 28 days the top layer of your skin has completely renewed. Is it still your same skin?

I don't know after how much time most of your original self from back then has been replaced, but an obvious one is that most of you back when you were, say, 8 years old, compared to how you are now (and I'm assuming you're an adult when reading this), most of what you are now will not have been you back when you were 8. Are you still the same person?

You'd be the same individual, but I think one could argue (and quite convincingly so imo) that you're not the same person you were back then.
Even now I'm not the same person I was like 20 years ago, but I still have my memories of then, so in a way I inherited my 20 year older (or younger depending how you would look at it!) self.

If I were to compare this to a computer, I could argue that what makes the 'personality of a computer' is its current Windows (or DOS) install. The installation will gather 'memories' and 'scars' of past changes, upgrades and parts failures. Rejuvenating is not really simple and a complete reinstall of the OS could be seen as replacing the brain of a person with a fresh one. The body would be the same but the whole person(ality) and all of its memories would be gone.

I think this is how I would see this, or at least at first glance I would 😜

The body is a vessel to carry you through the journey of life, the vessel you begin with is not the one you start with but the captain will always be you barring some catastrophic brain injury, for me . .I would love to do away with this horrible flesh and blood body and replace it with something superior, more durable and longer lasting.

Oh noes, the cap let the shmooo out 😁

Reply 11 of 17, by gerry

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I'd go with the motherboard as the most essential component, somewhat like a ship's hull

TrashPanda wrote on 2022-06-01, 03:29:

Had this discussion recently about Star Trek Picard, is Admiral Picard still admiral Picard seeing as he is essentially an android after the events of season 1.

lolwut? glad i haven't bothered with anything after ST Enterprise (and i didnt see most of those). Some things really are over with and are best left as they were in the past

TrashPanda wrote on 2022-06-01, 06:35:

The body is a vessel to carry you through the journey of life, the vessel you begin with is not the one you start with but the captain will always be you barring some catastrophic brain injury, for me . .I would love to do away with this horrible flesh and blood body and replace it with something superior, more durable and longer lasting.

that's interesting, humans are sort of ships of theseus too, except that i think neurons last a lifetime (in general), so becoming one of the few 'core' physical elements that stay constant

Reply 12 of 17, by Tetrium

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TrashPanda wrote on 2022-06-01, 06:35:
Tetrium wrote on 2022-06-01, 06:26:
That's a really good question! And a fun thought experiment 🙂 […]
Show full quote

That's a really good question! And a fun thought experiment 🙂

If I were to compare it to humans, with humans atoms and molecules get replaced constantly. Some things like your skin cells are a good example of this. After 28 days the top layer of your skin has completely renewed. Is it still your same skin?

I don't know after how much time most of your original self from back then has been replaced, but an obvious one is that most of you back when you were, say, 8 years old, compared to how you are now (and I'm assuming you're an adult when reading this), most of what you are now will not have been you back when you were 8. Are you still the same person?

You'd be the same individual, but I think one could argue (and quite convincingly so imo) that you're not the same person you were back then.
Even now I'm not the same person I was like 20 years ago, but I still have my memories of then, so in a way I inherited my 20 year older (or younger depending how you would look at it!) self.

If I were to compare this to a computer, I could argue that what makes the 'personality of a computer' is its current Windows (or DOS) install. The installation will gather 'memories' and 'scars' of past changes, upgrades and parts failures. Rejuvenating is not really simple and a complete reinstall of the OS could be seen as replacing the brain of a person with a fresh one. The body would be the same but the whole person(ality) and all of its memories would be gone.

I think this is how I would see this, or at least at first glance I would 😜

The body is a vessel to carry you through the journey of life, the vessel you begin with is not the one you start with but the captain will always be you barring some catastrophic brain injury, for me . .I would love to do away with this horrible flesh and blood body and replace it with something superior, more durable and longer lasting.

What began as a conflict over the transfer of consciousness from flesh to machine escalated into a war which has decimated a million worlds. The Core and the Arm have all but exhausted the resources of a galaxy in their struggle for domination. Both sides, now crippled beyond repair, the remnants of their armies continue to battle on ravaged planets, their hatred fueled by 4000 years of total war. This is a fight to the death. For each side the only acceptable outcome is the complete elimination of the other.

And so it begins...and I was here to witness the start of it 😮

Whats missing in your collections?
My retro rigs (old topic)
Interesting Vogons threads (links to Vogonswiki)
Report spammers here!

Reply 13 of 17, by TrashPanda

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Tetrium wrote on 2022-06-01, 06:57:
TrashPanda wrote on 2022-06-01, 06:35:
Tetrium wrote on 2022-06-01, 06:26:
That's a really good question! And a fun thought experiment 🙂 […]
Show full quote

That's a really good question! And a fun thought experiment 🙂

If I were to compare it to humans, with humans atoms and molecules get replaced constantly. Some things like your skin cells are a good example of this. After 28 days the top layer of your skin has completely renewed. Is it still your same skin?

I don't know after how much time most of your original self from back then has been replaced, but an obvious one is that most of you back when you were, say, 8 years old, compared to how you are now (and I'm assuming you're an adult when reading this), most of what you are now will not have been you back when you were 8. Are you still the same person?

You'd be the same individual, but I think one could argue (and quite convincingly so imo) that you're not the same person you were back then.
Even now I'm not the same person I was like 20 years ago, but I still have my memories of then, so in a way I inherited my 20 year older (or younger depending how you would look at it!) self.

If I were to compare this to a computer, I could argue that what makes the 'personality of a computer' is its current Windows (or DOS) install. The installation will gather 'memories' and 'scars' of past changes, upgrades and parts failures. Rejuvenating is not really simple and a complete reinstall of the OS could be seen as replacing the brain of a person with a fresh one. The body would be the same but the whole person(ality) and all of its memories would be gone.

I think this is how I would see this, or at least at first glance I would 😜

The body is a vessel to carry you through the journey of life, the vessel you begin with is not the one you start with but the captain will always be you barring some catastrophic brain injury, for me . .I would love to do away with this horrible flesh and blood body and replace it with something superior, more durable and longer lasting.

What began as a conflict over the transfer of consciousness from flesh to machine escalated into a war which has decimated a million worlds. The Core and the Arm have all but exhausted the resources of a galaxy in their struggle for domination. Both sides, now crippled beyond repair, the remnants of their armies continue to battle on ravaged planets, their hatred fueled by 4000 years of total war. This is a fight to the death. For each side the only acceptable outcome is the complete elimination of the other.

And so it begins...and I was here to witness the start of it 😮

You can be 100% sure that if the option was available to do that I would, though which side would I choose hmmmm.

Oh noes, the cap let the shmooo out 😁

Reply 14 of 17, by TrashPanda

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gerry wrote on 2022-06-01, 06:48:
I'd go with the motherboard as the most essential component, somewhat like a ship's hull […]
Show full quote

I'd go with the motherboard as the most essential component, somewhat like a ship's hull

TrashPanda wrote on 2022-06-01, 03:29:

Had this discussion recently about Star Trek Picard, is Admiral Picard still admiral Picard seeing as he is essentially an android after the events of season 1.

lolwut? glad i haven't bothered with anything after ST Enterprise (and i didnt see most of those). Some things really are over with and are best left as they were in the past

TrashPanda wrote on 2022-06-01, 06:35:

The body is a vessel to carry you through the journey of life, the vessel you begin with is not the one you start with but the captain will always be you barring some catastrophic brain injury, for me . .I would love to do away with this horrible flesh and blood body and replace it with something superior, more durable and longer lasting.

that's interesting, humans are sort of ships of theseus too, except that i think neurons last a lifetime (in general), so becoming one of the few 'core' physical elements that stay constant

Neurons can die just like other cells, its why you cannot remember things as well at 80 as you could at 20, that said the Brain is always recreating memory links and creating new ones, this is why memories can change over time and the small details get fuzzy, memories are also linked together and remembering say a smell can trigger connected memories to be recalled. (Neurons cannot be repaired however and dont reaerate like other cells can nor do they split and replicate)

The brain is truly a wonder of biology.

Oh noes, the cap let the shmooo out 😁

Reply 15 of 17, by Tetrium

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TrashPanda wrote on 2022-06-01, 07:21:
Tetrium wrote on 2022-06-01, 06:57:
TrashPanda wrote on 2022-06-01, 06:35:

The body is a vessel to carry you through the journey of life, the vessel you begin with is not the one you start with but the captain will always be you barring some catastrophic brain injury, for me . .I would love to do away with this horrible flesh and blood body and replace it with something superior, more durable and longer lasting.

What began as a conflict over the transfer of consciousness from flesh to machine escalated into a war which has decimated a million worlds. The Core and the Arm have all but exhausted the resources of a galaxy in their struggle for domination. Both sides, now crippled beyond repair, the remnants of their armies continue to battle on ravaged planets, their hatred fueled by 4000 years of total war. This is a fight to the death. For each side the only acceptable outcome is the complete elimination of the other.

And so it begins...and I was here to witness the start of it 😮

You can be 100% sure that if the option was available to do that I would, though which side would I choose hmmmm.

So you're the one who's hoarding all those LGA775 boards so you can build a networked set of rigs out of them in your basement for hosting Central Consciousness v1.0! I knew it! 😮

I'm Arm to the Core! *shakes fist angrily*

Whats missing in your collections?
My retro rigs (old topic)
Interesting Vogons threads (links to Vogonswiki)
Report spammers here!

Reply 16 of 17, by TrashPanda

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"We are the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile."

You will be Assimilated into the Core Collective !

Oh noes, the cap let the shmooo out 😁

Reply 17 of 17, by appiah4

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I'd say as long as the case is the same and the motherboard is the same architecture/socket, then I'M OK with it. However, I'm not very anal about these things. I have too many other OCD shit to deal with anyway.

Retronautics: A digital gallery of my retro computers, hardware and projects.