Tetrium wrote on 2022-05-15, 09:53:

And if you don't already have one and can get a Venice for cheap, I'd definitely do that. I got some 3200+ Venice CPUs for cheap back in the day just so I know I have a small stash available just in case I ever need them 🙂

In my neck of the woods, hi-end socket 754 Athlon64 CPUs are not super common. There are a lot of Semprons, but even they tend to be below 2 GHz on average. On the other hand, socket 939 Athlon64 models are plentiful and I do have several of those, including Venice and San Diego cores.

But anyway, on a more serious note, I do like the silent 12cm fans for systems like yours. Only issue I have with them is that they seem to not always work because the slow rotation makes some boards think the fan is not working so usually I end up testing several fans until I find one that matches well with the rig and I am happy with.

I actually have this issue with the CPU fan. When the system initially starts up, I get a "CPU Fan Error, press F1 to resume" since the fan on the aftermarket cooler spins below 2000 RPM. But after that initial boot, it doesn't occur anymore. Asus actually fixed this in a later BIOS update, allowing CPU fan speeds as low as 800 RPM, but of course I can't use that BIOS version.

I don't think the motherboard cares about non-CPU fan speeds though, but we'll see.

I'm thinking of switching to 45.23 Nvidia drivers. On this system, they reduce GPU performance by about 3% compared to 40.72 drivers, but in return, they give me aspect ratio scaling options over a DVI connection. This is useful for older games which don't support the 1280x1024 resolution natively, and need to use something lower. The "Fixed Aspect Ratio Scaling" option prevents the image from getting stretched:

I'm also experimenting with Windows ME since it has slightly better driver support for newer hardware. For example, the VIA Hyperion Pro 4-in-1 524A driver can be installed without any issues under WinME. In comparison, the chipset component of this driver pack "fails" under Win98SE and you need to manually restart the computer in order for all the motherboard devices to install correctly. Minor issues to be sure, but I already have a different rig running Win98SE, so I though I might change things up a bit here. We'll see how it goes.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-05-30, 13:18:

I'm thinking of switching to 45.23 Nvidia drivers. On this system, they reduce GPU performance by about 3% compared to 40.72 drivers, but in return, they give me aspect ratio scaling options over a DVI connection. This is useful for older games which don't support the 1280x1024 resolution natively, and need to use something lower. The "Fixed Aspect Ratio Scaling" option prevents the image from getting stretched:

I never use DVI with these old nVIDIA GPUs, don't like the output quality (particularly in DOS/during POST).
VGA looks and works best for me (+ I get full aspect ratio control using my monitor's capabilities).

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-05-30, 13:18:

I'm also experimenting with Windows ME [...]

Blasphemy!
The horror... the horror... 😁

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-05-30, 13:18:

We'll see how it goes.

Let me know when you switch back to Win98SE. 😁

Jokes aside, I remember having many game-breaking issues (and performance problems) when I tested WinME 20+ years ago, and I haven't given it another chance since then.
Among others, one game that I distinctly remember having issues was Need For Speed 2 SE in software mode (weird looking image during gameplay, filled with rainbow colored artifacts).

bloodem wrote on 2022-05-30, 13:59:

I never use DVI with these old nVIDIA GPUs, don't like the output quality (particularly in DOS/during POST).
VGA looks and works best for me (+ I get full aspect ratio control using my monitor's capabilities).

I did notice some blurriness when using non-native resolutions on Nvidia cards over DVI. This doesn't seem to happen when using a VGA connection.

Jokes aside, I remember having many game-breaking issues (and performance problems) when I tested WinME 20+ years ago, and I haven't given it another chance since then.

Heh, I'm in the same boat. I tried using WinME back in the day and had a terrible experience. On a whim, I decided to give it another shot, so we'll see if it fares any better this time.

Doing some preliminary benchmarks, and I'm seeing interesting results.

Win98SE + 40.72 driver is faster in OpenGL (e.g. Quake 2) but only up to and including 800x600. From 1024x768 and onward WinME + 45.23 gets the upper hand. For Direct3D games like Drakan and Unreal Tournament, WinME + 45.23 is consistently faster in all resolutions.

Of course, I'm kind of comparing apples to oranges here since I'm using different driver versions between the two operating systems. When I get back from my business trip, I'll try to even things out a bit more and then do a proper 98SE vs. ME comparison on this rig.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-05-30, 18:50:

Doing some preliminary benchmarks, and I'm seeing interesting results.

Win98SE + 40.72 driver is faster in OpenGL (e.g. Quake 2) but only up to and including 800x600. From 1024x768 and onward WinME + 45.23 gets the upper hand. For Direct3D games like Drakan and Unreal Tournament, WinME + 45.23 is consistently faster in all resolutions.

Of course, I'm kind of comparing apples to oranges here since I'm using different driver versions between the two operating systems. When I get back from my business trip, I'll try to even things out a bit more and then do a proper 98SE vs. ME comparison on this rig.

Interesting! Now I wonder if maybe these newer drivers might actually make WinME more… usable compared to my experienc from 20+ years ago.
Enjoy the business trip! (I just got back from a business trip myself). 😀 In my case there wasn’t much to enjoy, except those 9 hours of powerpoint presentations each day for a whole week. 😅

bloodem wrote on 2022-05-30, 13:59:

I never use DVI with these old nVIDIA GPUs, don't like the output quality (particularly in DOS/during POST). VGA looks and works […]
Show full quote

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-05-30, 13:18:

I'm thinking of switching to 45.23 Nvidia drivers. On this system, they reduce GPU performance by about 3% compared to 40.72 drivers, but in return, they give me aspect ratio scaling options over a DVI connection. This is useful for older games which don't support the 1280x1024 resolution natively, and need to use something lower. The "Fixed Aspect Ratio Scaling" option prevents the image from getting stretched:

I never use DVI with these old nVIDIA GPUs, don't like the output quality (particularly in DOS/during POST).
VGA looks and works best for me (+ I get full aspect ratio control using my monitor's capabilities).

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-05-30, 13:18:

I'm also experimenting with Windows ME [...]

Blasphemy!
The horror... the horror... 😁

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2022-05-30, 13:18:

We'll see how it goes.

Let me know when you switch back to Win98SE. 😁

Jokes aside, I remember having many game-breaking issues (and performance problems) when I tested WinME 20+ years ago, and I haven't given it another chance since then.
Among others, one game that I distinctly remember having issues was Need For Speed 2 SE in software mode (weird looking image during gameplay, filled with rainbow colored artifacts).

Not sure what you are joking about but WinME is a valid pick for a retro rig these days.
WinME threads have popped up from time to time, like for instance this one.

I've installed WinME on dozens of rigs actually and at some point learned to tweak it to run as best it can.

Tetrium wrote on 2022-05-31, 16:32:

Not sure what you are joking about but WinME is a valid pick for a retro rig these days.
WinME threads have popped up from time to time, like for instance this one.

I've installed WinME on dozens of rigs actually and at some point learned to tweak it to run as best it can.

No need to be offended, it's just a joke. 😀 I'm sure many people had a good experience with WinME and still do.
For example, I for one had a very good experience with (the very hated) Windows Vista, used it for two years without issues and I've even installed it on one of my retro builds.

As far as I know, most of WinME's bad reputation came from driver related issues on certain platforms, while on others it was pretty much rock solid.
Unfortunately, it just so happens that my initial experience with it 20 years ago was very bad, used it for about 1 - 2 weeks, had all sorts of problems and eventually reverted to Win98 and never looked back.

bloodem wrote on 2022-05-31, 17:46:

No need to be offended, it's just a joke. :-) I'm sure many people had a good experience with WinME and still do. For example, I […]
Show full quote

Tetrium wrote on 2022-05-31, 16:32:

Not sure what you are joking about but WinME is a valid pick for a retro rig these days.
WinME threads have popped up from time to time, like for instance this one.

I've installed WinME on dozens of rigs actually and at some point learned to tweak it to run as best it can.

No need to be offended, it's just a joke. 😀 I'm sure many people had a good experience with WinME and still do.
For example, I for one had a very good experience with (the very hated) Windows Vista, used it for two years without issues and I've even installed it on one of my retro builds.

As far as I know, most of WinME's bad reputation came from driver related issues on certain platforms, while on others it was pretty much rock solid.
Unfortunately, it just so happens that my initial experience with it 20 years ago was very bad, used it for about 1 - 2 weeks, had all sorts of problems and eventually reverted to Win98 and never looked back.

Yeah, I get it.
But you know about the 20 year old joke, it just stops being fun after a while 😋
I think there were multiple reasons for this bad reputation back then, one being many people didn't like the lesser DOS support (though it has worked fairly well for me personally running DOS games from Windows most of the time) and certain hardware configurations or certain (driver or hardware) changes apparently made it inherently unstable.

For me the best way seemed to start installation on a minimalistic configuration (S3 Virge, disabling all extra onboard stuff from BIOS or not plugging it in at first), only adding in the final hardware (either plugging in or enabling in the BIOS) after desktop has been reached, then install drivers and tweak the install (disabling system restore and PC Health and do some other tweaks). Or perhaps first tweak the install and then install drivers.
I also never install everything from the install disk, only things I find I will actually need on that rig.

Keep it lean and mean 😜

I had big stability problems with Windows ME back in the day on older hardware (Slot 1 type stuff). At the time it was really disappointing because I liked the faster boot time and the updated color scheme / icons / etc. Recently on my own Socket 754 retro computer I gave Windows ME another try and it's been rock solid. I do agree that Windows ME is a "valid pick" for a retro rig, especially with relatively newer motherboards that don't have ISA slots (i.e. not going to bother with real DOS).

Anyways, nice rig OP! 😀

bZbZbZ wrote on 2022-06-05, 06:27:

Recently on my own Socket 754 retro computer I gave Windows ME another try and it's been rock solid. I do agree that Windows ME is a "valid pick" for a retro rig, especially with relatively newer motherboards that don't have ISA slots (i.e. not going to bother with real DOS).

Yeah, that's pretty much my use case here. Pure DOS isn't feasible on this rig because of the aforementioned conventional memory problems due to using the RAID controller, so WinME fits nicely.

In terms of stability, I haven't had any issues so far. That said, the first thing I did after installing WinME was to disable System Restore, since that reportedly causes most of the headaches.

Anyways, nice rig OP! 😀

Cheers!

I did a preliminary comparison between WinME and Win98SE using the same Nvidia driver versions. As expected, there is almost no difference in performance between the two operating systems in that situation.

On the other hand, there seems to be quite a bit of difference between 40.72 and 45.23 drivers on this rig, regardless of whether WinME or Win98SE is used. The 40.72 drivers are about 3% faster in OpenGL and roughly 8% slower in Direct3D games. Despite that, 40.72 drivers consistently score higher in 3DMark 99, 2000 and 2001, which is very odd since those benchmarks use Direct3D.

After testing WinME for a while on this rig, I decided to switch over to it. Seems to be working fine so far, and performance is pretty much the same as under Win98SE. Since I already have both a Win95 and a Win98 rig, I figured I might as well complete the trifecta with WinME. 😁

I've also upgraded to 45.23 Nvidia drivers. As mentioned before, 40.72 give me higher 3DMark scores, but most games actually run faster with 45.23. Some charts for comparison:

40.72 drivers:

45.23 drivers:

It's interesting to see how much Direct3D performance improves with 45.23 drivers, especially in Unreal Tournament. On the other hand, Quake2 loses some FPS in OpenGL (mostly in lower resolutions) but makes notable gains in software rendering. Very odd results, but I'll happily take the higher frame rates in actual games over a few hundred points in 3DMark.

That's some pretty good performance. It was common for newer drivers to be somewhat more complex internally and thus use more CPU overhead. So in CPU limited situations (eg >400fps in low resolution Quake II) the newer driver could have worse performance. Clearly in your case the newer driver is better overall 😀

Can you stay above 60fps on Quake 2 (GL), UT99, and Draken if you enable some Anti Aliasing? I presume your monitor is 1280x1024 @ 60 Hz...

bZbZbZ wrote on 2022-06-07, 04:38:

Can you stay above 60fps on Quake 2 (GL), UT99, and Draken if you enable some Anti Aliasing? I presume your monitor is 1280x1024 @ 60 Hz...

On this rig, I can use Anti Aliasing and Anisotropic Filtering in moderation, but combining those settings with the 1280x1024 resolution lowers the performance of my GeForce4 Ti4200 quite a bit. Another chart incoming:

Personally, I prefer to have some extra headroom so that my games don't drop below 60 FPS even in the most demanding scenes. This is why I usually play with both AA and AF disabled on this system. I do sometimes enable them for games which only run at a fixed, lower resolution (e.g. 640x480) or for older titles that aren't very demanding.

But to smoothly run late-era Win9x games with high AA+AF settings at 1280x1024, I would probably need something like a GeForceFX 5900XT or better.

I found an unused case badge while rummaging through a drawer where I was storing some spare parts. I think it was left behind from way back in 2005 when I purchased my first Athlon 64 CPU. It's a nice fit for this rig, so I've updated the case pic in the first post to reflect that.

I kinda like how it looks, so maybe I'll order some of those case badge replicas and decorate my other rigs as well.

By popular demand, I'm uploading the GeForce4 Ti4200 benchmarks from my old AthlonXP 1700+ build and comparing them to this Athlon64 rig.

vs.

3DMark 99/2000/2001SE:

As expected, the Athlon64 is able to draw out more performance from the GeForce4 Ti4200 than the AthlonXP. Naturally, the gap gets smaller as the resolution increases since the systems start becoming GPU limited. Still, it's interesting to see how much difference a faster CPU makes.

Slight upgrade:

I replaced the Athlon64 3000+ CPU with a 3400+. Not a huge performance increase, but it is noticeable. In Deus Ex, I finally have stable 60 FPS on Liberty Island, and that is probably the most demanding level in the game.

BTW, this 3400+ uses the same NewCastle core as my previous CPU, since I'm not sure if the oldest BIOS for the K8V-MX can handle Venice. I won't be redoing the benchmarks yet, because I'm still waiting for a few things to arrive. Hopefully in a week or two.

Hello,
I built similar system recently:
- Athlon 3000+ 2GHz s.754
- Gigabyte GA-K8VT800 with VIA chipset (it has SATA3 issues - not that it matters much because system uses IDE hard drives for DOS/Win98)
- 2.5GB RAM (512MB + 2x 1GB)
- GeForce 4Ti 4200 128MB or FX 5900ZT
- Voodoo 2 12MB SLI
- ESS Solo-1
- Sound Blaster 128 PCI

Its configured for 510MB with himemx for Windows and for DOS by default its 64MB with NOEMS but there is few other options including 16MB + 8MB EMS for some trickier DOS games.

ESS card works in real mode or with emm386. SB 128PCI only works with emm386.exe loaded and it is only for newer DOS games which have MIDI and SB 16 compatibility. I also tried Audigy 2ZS and managed to make DOS audio work but this card has worse MIDI quality despite using the same ECW 2MB preset so is no go. 2ZS will go to other faster system (AMD Athlon 64 X2 5600+ 2.8GHz, also on VIA chipset)

Stability-wise its very good.
Slight stability issues with SB 128 PCI in DOS but I will tinker more with settings and drivers to see if anything improves situation. With ESS everything just works. Sound cards are selected by running sb.bat or ess.bat and always initialize on P220 I5 D1. Trying to run both causes system freeze either immediately or when starting game. Windows sees both cards.

Voodoo 2 SLI works fine. Glide, D3D and OpenGL work. It is there mostly to achieve ultimate compatibility and as a form of sanity check to be potentially always sure game renders correctly on newer graphic card.

e8root wrote on 2022-08-04, 11:28:

Hello,
I built similar system recently:

Hello and welcome to the forum! Nice to see another socket 754 enthusiast here. 😀

BTW, feel free to open a new thread and showcase your system in its full splendor. That's what we usually do here, everyone opens a topic for their own rig, posts some pictures and then we all reminisce about the good old days.

I also tried Audigy 2ZS and managed to make DOS audio work but this card has worse MIDI quality despite using the same ECW 2MB preset so is no go.

This is interesting. I rarely use Audigy cards in pure DOS, so I never paid much attention to the ECW sets. On those cards, I generally prefer to play DOS games under Win9x since that allows me to use SF2 soundfonts which are much more pleasing to my ears. I have a guide for setting this up, if you're interested.

Voodoo 2 SLI works fine. Glide, D3D and OpenGL work. It is there mostly to achieve ultimate compatibility and as a form of sanity check to be potentially always sure game renders correctly on newer graphic card.

That's an awesome setup! You get the full power of the GeForce4/5 card for newer games and the Voodoo2 pair take care of any older titles which might have compatibility issues. You built yourself a great system which covers a broad range of games.