No because they have a license from the government which is responsible for granting copyrights to the authors of creative works.

Reading that page it looks like the US Government allows archive.org to make one copy of a copyrighted work and lend that copy out. It doesn't allow archive.org to make unlimited copies and give them away which is what is happening for software users have uploaded to archive.org.

IIRC archive.org has a warehouse (warehouses?) full of all the books they digitally lend out. And if they have only one physical copy of a particular book then only one digital copy at a time can be borrowed.

the variability in application of edits explained by Vetz seems ok to me

as a rule it is very easy to find something if it is findable via one of the main search engines anyway, there is no need to push a forum into a potential problem (albeit a problem with very low risk)

Plasma wrote on 2022-07-14, 06:07:

So I can post a direct link on archive.org to a certain commercial compiler that rhymes with Morland? I

i found that a bit funny 😀

Q: "hey guys i'm looking for a 'frowntoad' for a 'tompiler' called 'morland sea' but it has to be version 'tree' not 'tree point juan', get me?"

A: Sure, if you 'lurch' 'fooble' for what i think you mean by 'morland sea' but make sure you add '-tree point juan', if you know what i mean, then its there in the 'lurch' results

Q: 10-4!

Plasma wrote on 2022-07-14, 09:53:

vetz wrote on 2022-07-14, 09:34:

I don't know the context of your post trying to help out the individual asking "where can I get item X" (retro computer equipment), but generally since those type of requests are quite rare and appear random here on Vogons I tend to let any links pass as long as it's done in good faith to help the person asking and not blatant promotion. Ofc if there suddenly started to come alot of "where can I get X" threads, then it would be another matter that would require supervision.

The poster was saying ESS Solo1 cards were expensive and difficult to find. I replied with "here's one on ebay for $20" or whatever. Link gets removed for "promotion." But then it's perfectly fine for me to reply with an exact ebay search term to find the same item.

Generally, in that scenario I would not have removed that link, but I cannot speak onbehalf of the mod who took action here and what his exact reasoning was, nor do I know the exact context. The terms of use only mention the word "promote", so that is what I focus on. As Snover mentioned in his post, not everything is written down to the minute detail and we're given quite large amount of freedom to moderate here on Vogons. I tend to try and see everything in context and use common sense. This might unfortunately result in some grey areas that some mods may be more strict and/or more lenient, but I'd say in general terms we are aligned. We're not perfect and we do not have the ability to read everything that is posted here. If you're not satisfied with the moderation, feel free to send a PM to either the mod in question or another mod if that is more suitable.

Just my two cents:

Archive.org and WinWorldPC — I think it's okay to link to documentation, drivers, BIOS images and software updates (not actual distributions/disk images). Technically it should be okay to link to shareware software as well, but WinWorldPC usually carries registered versions, and Archive.org often mixes genuine shareware CDs with actual warez compilations (not that they don't have huge historical value). It would be unreasonable to expect moderators to check legal status of every piece of software there.

So "here is a link to Windows 95 CD image" — no.
"Here is a link to a fast CPU fix for Windows 95" — yes.

eBay — I'm not sure it's a legal thing, but I might be wrong. Ebay discussions have caused one of the few dramas on this forum in all of 7 years I've been active here, so I think this is why it's a tricky subject. I never fully understood that situation, but I do agree that once you mix retro discussions with a marketplace, usually drama is bound to happen as witnessed by some other forums I've been on.

That being said I think it's okay to link to eBay for purposes other than buying/selling. Case in point — I had a topic where I was searching for drivers and manuals for a certain card. Someone has found that card on eBay and linked it so that I could contact the seller and ask him to dump the drivers. Also, eBay is generally a huge source of photos that can't be found elsewhere. In most cases it's the first thing that comes up in Google Images.

So "Here is where you can buy a ESS soundcard" — no.
"Here is what a ESS soundcard looks like" — yes.

I'm not a lawyer and not a moderator, but I've been following these guidelines and never found issues. I think there was one instance where I posted a link to (I can't remember what it was, but it was either Archive.org or WinWorldPC), then doubted myself and removed the link, and then found moderators removing the reference altogether. Given that I wasn't sure if it was okay, I wasn't surprised to see that kind of action.

davidrg wrote on 2022-07-14, 10:16:

No because they have a license from the government which is responsible for granting copyrights to the authors of creative works.

Reading that page it looks like the US Government allows archive.org to make one copy of a copyrighted work and lend that copy out. It doesn't allow archive.org to make unlimited copies and give them away which is what is happening for software users have uploaded to archive.org.

IIRC archive.org has a warehouse (warehouses?) full of all the books they digitally lend out. And if they have only one physical copy of a particular book then only one digital copy at a time can be borrowed.

I am not a lawyer, but I don't think you are either. US copyright law is not as clear cut as you make it out to be. You haven't even mentioned fair use.

https://cmsimpact.org/code/fair-use-software-preservation/
https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/2109/2109.08682.pdf

More importantly, the site owners likely aren't lawyers either, and they have no issue in spending their money on defending the service they provide for free on lawyers to argue what isn't, or is fair use.

Better to err on the side of caution in all cases. Remove any links to copyrighted material the copyright owner might take issue with.

If the files are hosted on Archive.org, then it's Archive.org that is potentially liable, not somebody else linking to their site.

It's been made clear that Vogons is not "erring on the side of caution in all cases" but rather whatever they feel like. So I will continue to post links that I feel are acceptable, and they can decide what to delete.

1. no need to discuss the legalities in this thread if the goal is to change the policy here
2. we have loose guidelines and sometimes we (moderators) make mistakes or don't know how to handle this or that link and just wait for another mod to take lead
3. if you can't live with that grey area of moderation, please go someplace where there are no rules or stricter rules depending of how you swing
4. please do not continue posting links you now know we disapprove of just out of spite

Ebay links: it's complicated 😀
*I* am more strict and tend to remove ebay links when I see them or more importantly when these get reported (I usually don't frequent those parts of the forum where ebay links are more prone to show). The reason is that we had a user that often used ebay links to boost the rankings of his shop (how do you know whether the seller is not the same as the user?) and when we got wise got aggressive and we needed to ban him. This resulted in him for years registering in other names and eventually spam us with offensive pictures.
The no ebay links rule is extreme but it I believe it deterred a lot of people that would spam us again with ebay posts (hidden as helpful replies)

Plasma wrote on 2022-07-14, 11:33:

If the files are hosted on Archive.org, then it's Archive.org that is potentially liable, not somebody else linking to their site.

It's been made clear that Vogons is not "erring on the side of caution in all cases" but rather whatever they feel like. So I will continue to post links that I feel are acceptable, and they can decide what to delete.

Liability for links is not clear cut in all countries.

Please do not post links to software that is not freeware just to spite us.

Dominus wrote on 2022-07-14, 11:39:

The no ebay links rule is extreme but it I believe it deterred a lot of people that would spam us again with ebay posts (hidden as helpful replies)

Just out of curiosity and lack of my own knowledge (i don't know the ebay's "seller side", how it works):
Does linking to historic auctions also somehow benefit the seller in rankings or other means?

Where did I say I was going to post links out of spite? I am trying to understand the rules because my posts are randomly edited for things that seem fine in other cases.

So it turns out the rules are actually guidelines. Ok then. I'll keep doing what I've been doing.

GigAHerZ wrote on 2022-07-14, 11:43:

Dominus wrote on 2022-07-14, 11:39:

The no ebay links rule is extreme but it I believe it deterred a lot of people that would spam us again with ebay posts (hidden as helpful replies)

Just out of curiosity and lack of my own knowledge (i don't know the ebay's "seller side", how it works):
Does linking to historic auctions also somehow benefit the seller in rankings or other means?

I have to say that I'm no longer sure, it's been a while, but I think so.

Plasma wrote on 2022-07-14, 11:45:

Where did I say I was going to post links out of spite? I am trying to understand the rules because my posts are randomly edited for things that seem fine in other cases.

So it turns out the rules are actually guidelines. Ok then. I'll keep doing what I've been doing.

your tone heavily suggested that you would do it out of spite. But anyway, now you know that posting links to copyrighted material is not ok, so please act accordingly.

Dominus wrote on 2022-07-14, 11:47:

Plasma wrote on 2022-07-14, 11:45:

Where did I say I was going to post links out of spite? I am trying to understand the rules because my posts are randomly edited for things that seem fine in other cases.

So it turns out the rules are actually guidelines. Ok then. I'll keep doing what I've been doing.

your tone heavily suggested that you would do it out of spite. But anyway, now you know that posting links to copyrighted material is not ok, so please act accordingly.

So are you going to remove all the existing links to copyrighted material?

Plasma wrote on 2022-07-14, 11:48:

Dominus wrote on 2022-07-14, 11:47:

Plasma wrote on 2022-07-14, 11:45:

Where did I say I was going to post links out of spite? I am trying to understand the rules because my posts are randomly edited for things that seem fine in other cases.

So it turns out the rules are actually guidelines. Ok then. I'll keep doing what I've been doing.

your tone heavily suggested that you would do it out of spite. But anyway, now you know that posting links to copyrighted material is not ok, so please act accordingly.

So are you going to remove all the existing links to copyrighted material?

see, that's why I think you will continue to post links just out of spit because this thread seems to exist just so you can continue to complain about the borland moderator decision...

Dominus wrote on 2022-07-14, 11:52:

Plasma wrote on 2022-07-14, 11:48:

Dominus wrote on 2022-07-14, 11:47:

your tone heavily suggested that you would do it out of spite. But anyway, now you know that posting links to copyrighted material is not ok, so please act accordingly.

So are you going to remove all the existing links to copyrighted material?

see, that's why I think you will continue to post links just out of spit because this thread seems to exist just so you can continue to complain about the borland moderator decision...

This is why I think the rules aren't actually rules because I can't get a straight answer.

You‘ve been given the answer of how we are trying to handle these links.
Rest assured I will make sure the links you post from now on will be dealt with according to the rules. And if you knowingly break the rules again and again… who knows…

Dominus wrote on 2022-07-14, 12:11:

You‘ve been given the answer of how we are trying to handle these links.
Rest assured I will make sure the links you post from now on will be dealt with according to the rules. And if you knowingly break the rules again and again… who knows…

So you are targeting me then?

Plasma wrote on 2022-07-14, 11:56:

Dominus wrote on 2022-07-14, 11:52:

Plasma wrote on 2022-07-14, 11:48:

So are you going to remove all the existing links to copyrighted material?

see, that's why I think you will continue to post links just out of spit because this thread seems to exist just so you can continue to complain about the borland moderator decision...

This is why I think the rules aren't actually rules because I can't get a straight answer.

The report button has four options...
- The post contains, or links to pirated software
- The post is spam
- The post violates community standards
- The post violates a different rule.

That should make it clear and be as easy to understand as a straight answer. (aside from that last one... )

Then there are the community guidelines ucp.php?mode=terms

weedeewee wrote on 2022-07-14, 12:23:

The report button has four options... - The post contains, or links to pirated software - The post is spam - The post violates […]
Show full quote

Plasma wrote on 2022-07-14, 11:56:

Dominus wrote on 2022-07-14, 11:52:

see, that's why I think you will continue to post links just out of spit because this thread seems to exist just so you can continue to complain about the borland moderator decision...

This is why I think the rules aren't actually rules because I can't get a straight answer.

The report button has four options...
- The post contains, or links to pirated software
- The post is spam
- The post violates community standards
- The post violates a different rule.

That should make it clear and be as easy to understand as a straight answer. (aside from that last one... )

Then there are the community guidelines ucp.php?mode=terms

Is software on archive.org "pirated"?