I am a owner of a Roland MT32, Sound Canvas SC55 and Sound Canvas SC88 and i am really happy. I would love to acquire also a Yamaha M50 or M80 but it is not necessary. All this stuff already complete me 😀.

moturimi1 wrote on 2018-03-04, 10:44:

I used to own a lot of different external GM modules to test the playback capacities in DOS games.
SC-55, SC-8820, SCD-70, SC-8850, SD-20, SD-50, SD-90, SD-80, K2000, K2000XV, MU-10, MU-50, XV-5050, XV-3080, JV-1010, NS5R, AG-10, DOX-1 (Korg PA-60).
I have to say that in most cases the GM bank of the modules is underwhelming. Most use only basic instrument patches. The modules shine with individual sound banks or instruments.

This was a hard lesson to learn back in the 2000s. I had been chasing the holy grail with AWE32 and Live! Sound Fonts for years, and finally got a real synth module: An Ensoniq MR Rack. The demos sounded amazing. GM files sounded... not amazing. As it turns out, to get spectacular results, you have to be a spectacular composer who knows how to use the tools available in that particular module.

It's only gotten worse for GM. Today's soft synths are the way to go, with multi-GB sample libraries for every classification of sounds. (GB of pianos, GB of choirs, etc.) You can create a fairly convincing synthetic orchestra, if you're sufficiently qualified to operate a MIDI sequencer. But throwing a generic MIDI file at it will not yield impressive results. Real instruments have too much expressiveness that is only accurately rendered when the synth provides control of those parameters, and the composition makes use of them. Realism can't be had with static articulation. It's a fool's errand.

Shponglefan wrote on 2018-03-11, 16:11:

derSammler wrote:

"not to be confused with simply selecting the SC-55 map"

I should read more closely shouldn't I? 😵

But how is the SC-55 mode otherwise set on the SC-88 Pro? I know there's an SC-88 compatibility mode, but not aware of how to set an SC-55 one.

I don't have direct knowledge of the SC-88Pro, but I think they may have been confusing the map for a single channel with remapping all channels. At least, that's how it's done on my SC-8850. I press both PART arrows at the same time to access ALL parts, and select the INST MAP, after that, to make the entire synth use the other sounds. It doesn't revert the map automatically even when sent a GS reset. You can reset the map through the SHIFT+Part Left Arrow->Initialize All, though, or just by setting it with the method I already mentioned. Still, if that is what they were saying, it is too confusingly worded to be left unsaid, as it really is just using the map of its predecessors (along with the throwback sounds that are used when you change the map of any one part/channel).

Edit: 2023-04-23
Just in advance of me being able to test the SC-88 Pro, I stumbled onto the details of its compatibility mode (which is what they truly meant): Roland SC-88 Pro (hopefully) helpful hints

On page 112 of the SC-88 Pro manual ("Creating compatible data for the unit / SC-88"), it says that holding SELECT while pressing ALL, and subsequently pressing either SC-55 MAP or SC-88 MAP, puts it in this compatibility mode. There, it infers the uses of the Bank Select LSB message (CC#32). When set to 0 (and also by default), it will be using the MAP you've selected on each part. It seems to me, that this is just the SC-88 Pro's method for changing the front-panel user-selected MAP for all parts. With compatibility mode disabled (hold SELECT and only press ALL without pressing a MAP button), it appears it would be using the SC-88 Pro ("Native") MAP for a CC#32 value of 0, which of course would mean the selected MAP for all parts is the SC-88 Pro ("Native") MAP.

The SC-8850 and SC-8820 always use the front-panel user-selected MAP when a CC#32 message of value 0 is set. So, I believe, this compatibility mode is only a different interface to change the selected MAP for all parts.

Of course, CC#32 may be set to 1-3 or 1-4 to force a specific MAP on the SC-88 Pro and SC-8850/20, respectively.

However, the CC#32 set to 0 is most important as, aside from it being the default MAP, it's how sequences are made to be device independent. If a newer GS synth is used, it's no problem for the Native MAP which will have the older variations. On the other hand if it's older, and it doesn't have the variations being used, this would work best when a device actually has variation fallback. While only the original SC-55 (and contemporary devices like the CM-300/500) have variation fallback, they also don't have alternate MAPs. Luckily, they aren't adversely affected by this slightly more modern concept of the GS Bank Select LSB CC#32, and ignore it.

While the SC-88 manual appears to be missing the mention of the SC-88 Pro's compatibility mode, on page 125 (in the Appendix: 7 - 21) it lists all the MAPs used with the LSB values. The SC-55 MAP is selected with values of both 0 and 1, and the SC-88 MAP is selected only with the value of 2. Although that seems troublesome, it's refuted on page 133 (7 - 31 in the SysEx section of the Appendix), where it says the front-panel user-selected MAP is chosen by a value of 0 (and is the default), the SC-55 MAP by the value 1, and the SC-88 MAP by 2, just like the later GS synths are for those values.

Also, it's important to note that the SC-88 and newer only use "almost the same sounds" as the SC-55mkII when using the SC-55 MAP, otherwise Roland wouldn't have gone out of their way to state it nearly everywhere it's mentioned in the SC-88 Pro manual.

I hope that helps,

Lucas

SirNickity wrote on 2020-03-11, 18:43:

This was a hard lesson to learn back in the 2000s. I had been chasing the holy grail with AWE32 and Live! Sound Fonts for years, and finally got a real synth module: An Ensoniq MR Rack. The demos sounded amazing. GM files sounded... not amazing. As it turns out, to get spectacular results, you have to be a spectacular composer who knows how to use the tools available in that particular module.

It's only gotten worse for GM. Today's soft synths are the way to go, with multi-GB sample libraries for every classification of sounds. (GB of pianos, GB of choirs, etc.) You can create a fairly convincing synthetic orchestra, if you're sufficiently qualified to operate a MIDI sequencer. But throwing a generic MIDI file at it will not yield impressive results. Real instruments have too much expressiveness that is only accurately rendered when the synth provides control of those parameters, and the composition makes use of them. Realism can't be had with static articulation. It's a fool's errand.

I've been trying to improve the static articulation just by changing patches from GM to SuperNATURAL on the INTEGRA-7 (and SysEx Editing) by using my qmidiroute patch (live MIDI editing, tuned for the INTEGRA-7, applied generically for every song). I agree that it's hit-and-miss, especially with some instruments' bend ranges (or controllers) that can cause strange whistles, but I love most of the results I've had. I think the SuperNATURAL sounds are Roland's attempt at giving users simple control over near-realism. Although one would think the INTEGRA-7 would be much better, simply by using its (PCM, not SuperNATURAL) High Quality GM bank, that sounds fairly like the Sound Canvas family, so without qmidiroute it wouldn't be that different. If you (or anyone else) have any MIDI files you want me to test my setup with, please share them with me and I'll try to capture the INTEGRA-7 audio for you. This fool, anyway, doesn't mind trying to improve the situation. 😉

The current release of my qmidiroute patch for GNU/Linux (if you want to try tuning it for your Ensoniq MR Rack) is being hosted here again (the site's back up as of about a week ago)!: https://www.midimusicadventures.com/phpbb/vie … ?p=18702#p18702

Here are before-and-after qmidiroute-modified MIDI files & recordings (GS with HQ GM vs. SuperNATURAL from qmidiroute) of the INTEGRA-7 which I captured for the Sound Canvas Comparison Project: https://1drv.ms/f/s!AsMEa3-pVaQOgTFgPKo_7ao-xOxh?e=37FqN6

Enjoy! 😀