Jo22 wrote on 2022-09-11, 10:47:

Ironically, China, Hongkong or Taiwan was the source for the first non-IBM clone BIOSes.
Back in the 80s, there was a big boom of all sorts of software/hardware piracy. Some pirates even improved existing software, because they had higher standards. 😁
There were underground copy shops with disk stations that cracked and copied commercial software etc. Once read about this in a magazine.

Correction: (Mainland) China was not yet in the picture of consumer-grade computer hardware back in the 1980s; South Korea was instead.

To me, those were not just news on magazines; those were right around my early life. 😉

I mean when the 5150 came out and later clones didn't have compatibility down pat then the only real genuine pc would be an IBM series pc made by IBM.

As time went on and clones eventually became 100% compatible then the whole genuine thing mattered less and actually even became a detriment as IBM tried to pull an Apple by swinging things in a more proprietary direction in an attempt to take back control of the platform.

Eventually the gang of nine won out with thier more open hardware approach and ibm became irrelevant in the pc space , making a couple of thinkcentre pcs in thier waning years before selling off their pc division to lennovo in 2004 marking the end of ibms influence in the pc market.

So yeah from that point on the whole genuine pc has lost meaning , or I guess alternatively you can say all pcs are genuine as long as they hold on to key specifications and standards outlined by various consortium's and groups.

100% compatibility was difficult to archive, I assume. Rather, 99,9% was the maximum, I guess. 😉

I imagine, there were different revisions of the 5150 motherboard, the PC BIOS and the then new PC/XT 5160 removed certain features (cassette port etc).

Also, there were different versions of the 8088 processor.
There's even a way to detect it. Some guys wrote little utilities that checked for certain differences.
And that's just the original i8088.
There used to be several clones of the 8088, which differed slightly in behavior, electrical tolerances etc.

Strictly speaking, the original intel processor series isn't even "natively" running 8086 code, due to the use of microcode.
"Natively" would mean in pure silicon, without the help of micro programs.
That paradox could even lead to the
situation that an unlicensed 8086/8088 clone without microcode to qualify for being able of native code execution, unlike the original chip. 😉

And then, there also were different models of the CGA and MDA controller chip.
The Motorola CRTC 6845 was heavily cloned, too. The UM6845E, for example, was quite popular.
And strictly speaking, the 6845 was a clone in itself.
The original chip was the Hitachi HD46505, but it wasn't necessarily the "original" chip from the point of view of PC users.

Good question actually. But for me it sounds a little bit like asking what a genuine fork or a genuine car is. PCs have become so much standard in daily life, the exact definitions have watered down from meaning a particular standard from IBM to mostly meaning a (usually metal) box with keyboard, screen and mouse attached on which you can either game or work.

RandomStranger wrote on 2022-09-06, 15:10:

If you take it literally: https://wikiless.org/wiki/IBM_PC_Series?lang=en

But "PC" became synonymous with home computer and a lot of people after the PC AT period calls computers Wintel PC rather than IBM PC compatibles. Even late IBM computers from the PC series product line.

From what I remember here in The Netherlands people were taking about whether or not something was IBM compatible, though tbh at that time I wasn't very knowledgeable about computers yet (back in the 486 and Pentium eras most people still didn't have a PC yet, let alone internet).

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2022-09-06, 15:42:

Kerr Avon wrote on 2022-09-06, 13:17:

And why has 'scalping' (the not very moral practice of buying some, or many, of something desirable that's new and fairly rare, and then selling them at a vastly inflated profit to people who now can't find any from the legitimate sellers) become such big business now? It's always existed, of course, but since Covid it's really shot up in prominence and degree.

In the situation of a short supply and a growing demand prices will grow even without "scalpers". Scalpers only "help" to achieve market prices faster than it would happen naturally.

This is incorrect. Scalping only creates artificial scarcity regardless of the presence of real scarcity and scalping also artificially increases prices as part of these increased prices go directly into scalper's pockets for which they do very little (if anything at all) in return.

leonardo wrote on 2022-09-06, 17:05:

I guess the definition that still more or less stands today is a modular personal computer constructed from off-the-shelf parts that is 100% compatible with an x86-based IBM PC.

It's the use of off-the-shelf parts that allowed the reverse-engineering and cloning of the early IBMs so easily, and effectively allowed all the clone-makers to piggy-back on IBM's brand and software selection. Had it not been for this, IBMs would have been just like your Amigas and Ataris and Amstrads and Apples etc. etc.

The wave of clones eventually managed to wipe out all but Apple, and even with Apple it came close.

For me, off the shelf parts and the modular nature is part of the core features of a PC. If it isn't modular it may be IBM PC compatible, but for me (and I mean literally just me personally) it being modular is really what defines a PC. It's a huge part of what makes it so interesting and is most likely of significant importance to the eventual success of the PC over other standards of back then.

If PCs hadn't been as modular as they are, I would certainly not have gone into this hobby.

Tetrium wrote on 2022-09-12, 08:32:

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2022-09-06, 15:42:

Kerr Avon wrote on 2022-09-06, 13:17:

And why has 'scalping' (the not very moral practice of buying some, or many, of something desirable that's new and fairly rare, and then selling them at a vastly inflated profit to people who now can't find any from the legitimate sellers) become such big business now? It's always existed, of course, but since Covid it's really shot up in prominence and degree.

In the situation of a short supply and a growing demand prices will grow even without "scalpers". Scalpers only "help" to achieve market prices faster than it would happen naturally.

This is incorrect. Scalping only creates artificial scarcity regardless of the presence of real scarcity and scalping also artificially increases prices as part of these increased prices go directly into scalper's pockets for which they do very little (if anything at all) in return.

This IS correct. Scalpers artificially increase prices - That's right. But who forces you to pay that price? If this price is higher than a normal market price, then they will manage to sell their stock only to a couple of insane persons who in addition to be insane also have enough money. But if they manage to sell all of their stock in few weeks or even days, then that is a new market price, doesn't matter whether you like it or not.

"as part of these increased prices go directly into scalper's pockets for which they do very little (if anything at all) in return."
Storage costs not so little. Time for running a business also costs money. Even if most of these increased prices goes into their pocket without a need to pay for storage or to workers for their time, still, no one forces you to buy from them. Stop buying and they will start dropping their sky-high prices.

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2022-09-12, 09:09:

This IS correct. Scalpers artificially increase prices - That's right. But who forces you to pay that price? If this price is hi […]
Show full quote

Tetrium wrote on 2022-09-12, 08:32:

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2022-09-06, 15:42:

In the situation of a short supply and a growing demand prices will grow even without "scalpers". Scalpers only "help" to achieve market prices faster than it would happen naturally.

This is incorrect. Scalping only creates artificial scarcity regardless of the presence of real scarcity and scalping also artificially increases prices as part of these increased prices go directly into scalper's pockets for which they do very little (if anything at all) in return.

This IS correct. Scalpers artificially increase prices - That's right. But who forces you to pay that price? If this price is higher than a normal market price, then they will manage to sell their stock only to a couple of insane persons who in addition to be insane also have enough money. But if they manage to sell all of their stock in few weeks or even days, then that is a new market price, doesn't matter whether you like it or not.

"as part of these increased prices go directly into scalper's pockets for which they do very little (if anything at all) in return."
Storage costs not so little. Time for running a business also costs money. Even if most of these increased prices goes into their pocket without a need to pay for storage or to workers for their time, still, no one forces you to buy from them. Stop buying and they will start dropping their sky-high prices.

You're essentially just repeating yourself. And again your reasoning is incorrect.

You forgotten scalpers will scalp anything that makes them profits including essential medical supplies and food and housing. This is not getting through to you, seems like you're just a scalper yourself or something.

Anyway, stop spreading misinformation about scalping, you're just spreading flamebait at this point. Thank you.

Tetrium wrote on 2022-09-12, 09:20:

You're essentially just repeating yourself. And again your reasoning is incorrect.

You forgotten scalpers will scalp anything that makes them profits including essential medical supplies and food and housing. This is not getting through to you, seems like you're just a scalper yourself or something.

Anyway, stop spreading misinformation about scalping, you're just spreading flamebait at this point. Thank you.

I'm not repeating myself, but repeating simple rules of economics.

Regarding scalping goods like essential medical supplies and food for example, that in most cases is prohibited by the government, since prices for those essential goods are regulated.

I'm not a scalper, but if I will decide to sell anything from my collection, I will not sell it at a loss. On the other hand, I also won't buy things that I'm not interested in just because they are cheap.

And please, don't tell me what to do. We all have the same right of speech and of expression of our opinions.

And again, the only way to lower prices is to stop paying those sky-high prices to those scalpers. Or to pass a law that will regulate prices for old computer hardware.🙂

ThinkpadIL wrote on 2022-09-12, 09:32:

I'm not repeating myself, but repeating simple rules of economics. […]
Show full quote

Tetrium wrote on 2022-09-12, 09:20:

You're essentially just repeating yourself. And again your reasoning is incorrect.

You forgotten scalpers will scalp anything that makes them profits including essential medical supplies and food and housing. This is not getting through to you, seems like you're just a scalper yourself or something.

Anyway, stop spreading misinformation about scalping, you're just spreading flamebait at this point. Thank you.

I'm not repeating myself, but repeating simple rules of economics.

Regarding scalping goods like essential medical supplies and food for example, that in most cases is prohibited by the government, since prices for those essential goods are regulated.

I'm not a scalper, but if I will decide to sell anything from my collection, I will not sell it at a loss. On the other hand, I also won't buy things that I'm not interested in just because they are cheap.

And please, don't tell me what to do. We all have the same right of speech and of expression of our opinions.

And again, the only way to lower prices is to stop paying those sky-high prices to those scalpers. Or to pass a law that will regulate prices for old computer hardware.🙂

I didn't say you were repeating yourself. I said you were essentially repeating yourself which is a different thing.

Selling at a loss is hard to do with the way prices have been going in the last 10-odd years, but I can certainly understand not wanting to sell things at a loss and especially not if it cost you a lot to get it all in the first place 🙂
But the reality is that probably most hobbies will end up being a net loss.

I only asked you to stop spreading misinformation.
This

In the situation of a short supply and a growing demand prices will grow even without "scalpers". Scalpers only "help" to achieve market prices faster than it would happen naturally.

is misinformation.

I don't know about what could be good regulation against scalping in retro computer parts world specifically, but I think it's a good idea to indeed use regulations to keep scalping within acceptable limits as this will benefit everyone (well, everyone except the scalpers and their private little networks of course).
And I definitely saw scalpers hoarding face masks, thermometers and even paracetamol at the start of the pandemic (scalpers trying to sell boxes of paracetamol for like €1000 on sites like marktplaats) and it takes a while before regulation can make specific amendments to laws that should help prevent unwanted economic exploitation mechanics like scalping. But you don't need to buy that, right? So it's all perfectly ok 😀 😀 😀

If you're in a hobby like this, you do need those parts. What you are saying might be interpreted as to either pay scalper prices or quit the hobby. And what if they move to the next hobby? Scalpers will infest there as well and drive people out of that hobby as well. That seems like a pretty bad idea overall, just monetizing things in such a way. It's damaging to not just this specific hobby. I mean just look at what scalping is doing to the housing market in Europe.

Fine you only want to see the benefits and marginalize the damaging effects of scalping (or try to). And you tried to present misinformation as an honest bit of information. Sorry you felt like someone telling you what to do when someone else is challenging your perception of the facts of the effect scalping on retro computer prices, but I think it's more important to stay informed and the best way to stay informed is to be provided and provide others with correct information which was what you were definitely not doing.

Tetrium wrote on 2022-09-12, 12:01:

... But the reality is that probably most hobbies will end up being a net loss.

Nah, don't sound convincing to me. If you want others to sell their stuff cheaper than they bought it, say it straight instead of trying to call your fantasies a reality.

Tetrium wrote on 2022-09-12, 12:01:

I only asked you to stop spreading misinformation. This […]
Show full quote

I only asked you to stop spreading misinformation.
This

In the situation of a short supply and a growing demand prices will grow even without "scalpers". Scalpers only "help" to achieve market prices faster than it would happen naturally.

is misinformation.

It is not a misinformation, nor a disinformation. It is the way free market works. The simplest example is the way any eBay auction works. If starting price is too high, there will be zero bidders and if it is too low, price will rise till it will reach a more or less market price.

Tetrium wrote on 2022-09-12, 12:01:

I don't know about what could be good regulation against scalping in retro computer parts world specifically, but I think it's a good idea to indeed use regulations to keep scalping within acceptable limits as this will benefit everyone (well, everyone except the scalpers and their private little networks of course).
And I definitely saw scalpers hoarding face masks, thermometers and even paracetamol at the start of the pandemic (scalpers trying to sell boxes of paracetamol for like €1000 on sites like marktplaats) and it takes a while before regulation can make specific amendments to laws that should help prevent unwanted economic exploitation mechanics like scalping. But you don't need to buy that, right? So it's all perfectly ok 😀 😀 😀

Regulation - means passing a law and enforcing it afterwards. If you want retro computer parts prices to be regulated, you need to cause your local parliament members to vote for your bill. Same about face masks and others goods. If you want price of those goods to be regulated, go to your government and force it to start regulating it. Till then there is nothing to do other than trying your luck in a court, cause it's your right for having benefits of using someone's goods against ownership rights of that person who owns those goods.

Tetrium wrote on 2022-09-12, 12:01:

If you're in a hobby like this, you do need those parts. What you are saying might be interpreted as to either pay scalper prices or quit the hobby. And what if they move to the next hobby? Scalpers will infest there as well and drive people out of that hobby as well. That seems like a pretty bad idea overall, just monetizing things in such a way. It's damaging to not just this specific hobby. I mean just look at what scalping is doing to the housing market in Europe.

I do not need those parts, it is only a hobby, those parts are not a life saving medicine or a fresh water, I can live pretty fine also without them. Regarding your interpretation of my words, it is your right to try interpreting them the way you wish. What I did mean actually is that in world of more or less free market there are rules of economics that really work. There always were and always will be forces that push prices upwards and downwards and the market price is the point where those prices become stable. Scalpers - are one of the forces that push price upwards and as long as they do not do anything illegal, you may only complain, and there is nothing to do besides buying now and paying the existing price, trying to convince a seller (scalper or a regular seller, doesn't matter) to lower the price, or waiting till the price will drop. And if time goes by and prices not only do not drop, but only rise and you can't afford to finance your hobby, then definitely you better find different hobby, one you can afford.

Tetrium wrote on 2022-09-12, 12:01:

Fine you only want to see the benefits and marginalize the damaging effects of scalping (or try to). And you tried to present misinformation as an honest bit of information. Sorry you felt like someone telling you what to do when someone else is challenging your perception of the facts of the effect scalping on retro computer prices, but I think it's more important to stay informed and the best way to stay informed is to be provided and provide others with correct information which was what you were definitely not doing.

The only thing I'm trying to do is to say how I see the nowadays' situation with prices for retro computer parts. You may accept my point of view or not, but with all due respect, it's not you who will decide whether it is a misinformation or not. Let's respect each other, even if we have different points of view.