VOGONS


First post, by Zilch

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Hi all.

I was wondering why it is that seemingly no one has tried to emulate the SC-55. Is it just due to the closed nature of things surrounding its architecture, or is it the possibility of Roland taking someone to court for even so much as using recorded samples of the SC-55?

In theory it should be possible to reconstruct a nearly identical sounding soundfont by skipping the output (opamp) stage and doing a straight recording, or better yet record the digital output (just before the DAC).

I understand most of the people here are wayy cleverer than I am, especially with these things, so maybe it's just a simple thing I'm just missing.

Reply 1 of 13, by Shponglefan

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An emulation already exists in the form of the official Roland Sound Canvas VA (VST instrument): https://www.roland.com/ca/products/rc_sound_canvas_va/

In addition to the obvious copyright issues re: samples, I don't imagine there is a lot of incentive to try to create what Roland has already created themselves.

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Reply 2 of 13, by Tiido

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Some efforts are now underway to get to a point where the main sound chip gets emulated. I provided a chip for decapping not so long ago and from what I understand, there are some clever people trying to uncover the secrets :
https://twitter.com/johndmcmaster/status/1549 … lWmGNrM63IW9xig

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Reply 3 of 13, by AppleSauce

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Tiido wrote on 2022-10-18, 09:32:

Some efforts are now underway to get to a point where the main sound chip gets emulated. I provided a chip for decapping not so long ago and from what I understand, there are some clever people trying to uncover the secrets :
https://twitter.com/johndmcmaster/status/1549 … lWmGNrM63IW9xig

Should send that info to Skjelten so he can spice up his sc-55 emulator.

https://github.com/skjelten/emusc

Reply 4 of 13, by RetroGamer4Ever

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Roland did defend their GS tech in the late 90's, when they sued Crystal/Atmel (Now known as DREAM) for sampling their GS sounds - a rough equivalent to an SC-55, though some have said some SC-88 sounds are in there too - and selling chips that were marketed as GS-compliant/capable because they had a GS-labeled bank attached to the chips or in the chip itself and used GS SysEx commands in their firmware. It resulted in official licensing of the GS sounds becoming a thing - Apple and Microsoft licensed SC-55 equivalent sounds for their respective software products - and the company did an official GS bank that was available to license for almost all of their SAM digital audio chips.

I don't know if they would defend it now and they haven't bothered to go after anyone who did SC-sampled SoundFont banks, but I do know that the Roland VSC offerings were revamped because there is a massive pile of MIDIs out in the wilds of the Internet which can only be played with proper hardware that is beginning to become hard to come by and because Roland needs to milk their tech portfolio for as much cash as they can, since they are in decline. Technically speaking, they do still manufacture the Sound Canvas hardware and never stopped making it, but it's now only built into their digital piano line of products, which sell for thousands of dollars a pop and most likely doesn't get used for MIDI work like the old Sound Canvas modules were. Yamaha does the same with their XG tech.

Reply 5 of 13, by BraveToaster

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There are multiple sound fonts out there that get rather close: https://github.com/dwhinham/mt32-pi/wiki/Reco … nded-SoundFonts

Other than that, the closest you can get to real hardware ia Roland's official emulator (SoundCanvas VA), but nowadays it's only available with a RolandCloud subscription. But considering the original devices aren't _that_ expensive yet, getting a real one might be cheaper in the long run than paying the subscription (and probably more fun 😉 ).

Reply 6 of 13, by Spikey

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Roland's emulator emulates a SC-8820, so the SC-55 map is inaccurate like the real hardware's map is. IIRC, some samples are different and the effects are different. Bottom line, it's not like flawless MT-32 emulation, it's somewhat accurate emulation but not the same as an actual SC-55.

I've heard a lot of SC-55 soundfonts, most are good at some instruments and bad at others. The best I've heard in terms of overall accuracy is Deemster's soundfont:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7ntR7VRcUec … Zw0SRi7LQXihHLg

Reply 7 of 13, by Shponglefan

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Spikey wrote on 2022-10-28, 15:30:

it's somewhat accurate emulation but not the same as an actual SC-55.

TBH, nothing is the same as an actual SC-55.

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Reply 8 of 13, by AppleSauce

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Shponglefan wrote on 2022-10-28, 21:39:
Spikey wrote on 2022-10-28, 15:30:

it's somewhat accurate emulation but not the same as an actual SC-55.

TBH, nothing is the same as an actual SC-55.

Isn't the SC-55 pretty much a rompler though?
I'm sure there's some special sauce in the custom IC chips but it just plays what's on the roms so in theory it should be possible to duplicate what it does.

Reply 9 of 13, by Falcosoft

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Shponglefan wrote on 2022-10-28, 21:39:
Spikey wrote on 2022-10-28, 15:30:

it's somewhat accurate emulation but not the same as an actual SC-55.

TBH, nothing is the same as an actual SC-55.

Yeah, even an SC-55 is not the same as another SC-55 😀
Apparently not all GS-only sc-55s are the same, some are GM
So the ROM samples are one thing, but a perfect emulation should allow to switch between the different firmware implementations just like Munt.

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Reply 10 of 13, by Spikey

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Falcosoft wrote on 2022-10-29, 06:38:
Yeah, even an SC-55 is not the same as another SC-55 :) Apparently not all GS-only sc-55s are the same, some are GM So the ROM […]
Show full quote
Shponglefan wrote on 2022-10-28, 21:39:
Spikey wrote on 2022-10-28, 15:30:

it's somewhat accurate emulation but not the same as an actual SC-55.

TBH, nothing is the same as an actual SC-55.

Yeah, even an SC-55 is not the same as another SC-55 😀
Apparently not all GS-only sc-55s are the same, some are GM
So the ROM samples are one thing, but a perfect emulation should allow to switch between the different firmware implementations just like Munt.

Tricky though, because there's also the original and mkII, the mkII having superior components like DAC. So harder to change that on the fly.

Reply 11 of 13, by Falcosoft

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Spikey wrote on 2022-10-29, 09:58:
Falcosoft wrote on 2022-10-29, 06:38:
Yeah, even an SC-55 is not the same as another SC-55 :) Apparently not all GS-only sc-55s are the same, some are GM So the ROM […]
Show full quote
Shponglefan wrote on 2022-10-28, 21:39:

TBH, nothing is the same as an actual SC-55.

Yeah, even an SC-55 is not the same as another SC-55 😀
Apparently not all GS-only sc-55s are the same, some are GM
So the ROM samples are one thing, but a perfect emulation should allow to switch between the different firmware implementations just like Munt.

Tricky though, because there's also the original and mkII, the mkII having superior components like DAC. So harder to change that on the fly.

I was talking about the original SC-55 and its different firmware implementations (1.0, 1.10, 1.21, 2.0).
Emulating the mkII also would be just a bonus. It's worth mentioning that Munt also implements different DAC emulations that can be changed on the fly (Generation 1, Generation 2 etc.). I cannot tell that emulating both MT-32 and CM-32/64 in one project is more or less difficult than emulating both SC-55 original and mkII, but if Munt did not exist I would say both are nearly impossible 😀

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Reply 12 of 13, by AppleSauce

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Falcosoft wrote on 2022-10-29, 10:41:
Spikey wrote on 2022-10-29, 09:58:
Falcosoft wrote on 2022-10-29, 06:38:

Yeah, even an SC-55 is not the same as another SC-55 😀
Apparently not all GS-only sc-55s are the same, some are GM
So the ROM samples are one thing, but a perfect emulation should allow to switch between the different firmware implementations just like Munt.

Tricky though, because there's also the original and mkII, the mkII having superior components like DAC. So harder to change that on the fly.

I was talking about the original SC-55 and its different firmware implementations (1.0, 1.10, 1.21, 2.0).
Emulating the mkII also would be just a bonus. It's worth mentioning that Munt also implements different DAC emulations that can be changed on the fly (Generation 1, Generation 2 etc.). I cannot tell that emulating both MT-32 and CM-32/64 in one project is more or less difficult than emulating both SC-55 original and mkII, but if Munt did not exist I would say both are nearly impossible 😀

I think emusc is planning on adding the sc88 as well , so maybe the 55mk2 could also be in the cards

"EmuSC is a software synthesizer that aims to use the ROM files of the Roland Sound Canvas SC-55 lineup (and perhaps the SC-88 in the future) to recreate the original sounds of these '90s era synthesizers."

:edit:
hang on one of the files on the github has this

Updated to remove unused SCC-1A reference.

{
case sm_SC55:
case sm_SCC1:
case sm_SCC1A:
case sm_SC55mkII:
return _banksSC55;
case sm_SC88: // No work has been done here yet