VOGONS


Reply 40 of 58, by spark2k06

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The horizontal connector can be a problem if a picoPSU is connected, since there is no space below for the cables that exit from it.

nztdm wrote:
Thanks :) […]
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BinaryDemon wrote:

Very cool, just curious why did you lay the power connector horizontal?

Thanks 😀

And because I like the look of a side-entering ATX connector more.
This board is not as wide as MicroATX boards can be, so there is plenty of space in a MicroATX case.

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Reply 41 of 58, by nztdm

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spark2k06 wrote:

The horizontal connector can be a problem if a picoPSU is connected, since there is no space below for the cables that exit from it.

nztdm wrote:
Thanks :) […]
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BinaryDemon wrote:

Very cool, just curious why did you lay the power connector horizontal?

Thanks 😀

And because I like the look of a side-entering ATX connector more.
This board is not as wide as MicroATX boards can be, so there is plenty of space in a MicroATX case.

The wires exit the top of picoPSU (except the extra peripheral connector).
The chinese clones off eBay exit the bottom, but I advise against using those.
The footprint can accommodate a vertical connector if one desires.

Reply 43 of 58, by emperornemesis

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Hi Guys

I would REALLY love to build this, but to buy a complete kit when you are living in a coco communist country at the tip of africa, is really expensive. According to the author, there should be gerber files somewhere, but I cannot seem to find any, and I'll need them as this would be a project that I need to do as the budget allows it. Can anyone maybe share the gerber files, or at least post a link to them if possible?

Reply 44 of 58, by nztdm

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emperornemesis wrote on 2022-09-13, 04:30:

Hi Guys

I would REALLY love to build this, but to buy a complete kit when you are living in a coco communist country at the tip of africa, is really expensive. According to the author, there should be gerber files somewhere, but I cannot seem to find any, and I'll need them as this would be a project that I need to do as the budget allows it. Can anyone maybe share the gerber files, or at least post a link to them if possible?

Hello

The gerbers are here for v1.2: https://github.com/monotech/NuXT

I haven't released the PCB files for v2.0 yet. It would also be difficult to build due to a custom connector assembly.

Cheers

Reply 45 of 58, by Sphere478

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One of my favorite retro computing projects on the internet. Very good job!

If you feel up to it, we could use a ultimate socket 3 and ultimate socket 7 motherboard also :p

Sphere's PCB projects.
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Sphere’s socket 5/7 cpu collection.
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SUCCESSFUL K6-2+ to K6-3+ Full Cache Enable Mod
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Reply 46 of 58, by Namrok

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I saw my order is in the air now. Can't wait to get it.

I'm really tempted to do it up in a self built wooden case, in the style of one of those 1960's furniture piece TVs. But that will likely be a project for another day.

I just need to find an IO card for it with a gameport. There don't happen to be any open source projects for something like that, are there?

Win95/DOS 7.1 - P233 MMX (@2.5 x 100 FSB), Diamond Viper V330 AGP, SB16 CT2800
Win98 - K6-2+ 500, GF2 MX, SB AWE 64 CT4500, SBLive CT4780
Win98 - Pentium III 1000, GF2 GTS, SBLive CT4760
WinXP - Athlon 64 3200+, GF 7800 GS, Audigy 2 ZS

Reply 47 of 58, by nztdm

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Namrok wrote on 2022-09-13, 15:02:

I saw my order is in the air now. Can't wait to get it.

I'm really tempted to do it up in a self built wooden case, in the style of one of those 1960's furniture piece TVs. But that will likely be a project for another day.

I just need to find an IO card for it with a gameport. There don't happen to be any open source projects for something like that, are there?

Not that I know of, but cards with gameports are common.

You may want better sound too, so you can use any ISA sound card - most include a gameport.
Most 16-bit ISA sound cards will work too, some needing more effort than others.

Reply 48 of 58, by Namrok

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nztdm wrote on 2022-09-13, 22:00:
Not that I know of, but cards with gameports are common. […]
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Namrok wrote on 2022-09-13, 15:02:

I saw my order is in the air now. Can't wait to get it.

I'm really tempted to do it up in a self built wooden case, in the style of one of those 1960's furniture piece TVs. But that will likely be a project for another day.

I just need to find an IO card for it with a gameport. There don't happen to be any open source projects for something like that, are there?

Not that I know of, but cards with gameports are common.

You may want better sound too, so you can use any ISA sound card - most include a gameport.
Most 16-bit ISA sound cards will work too, some needing more effort than others.

The sound card I had in mind was an adlib clone. And maybe also a TNDY 3 Voice if I ever see those for sale? But I may end up with some form of Sound Blaster just for the gameport if I feel the need for it badly enough. Still waiting on USPS for now though.

Win95/DOS 7.1 - P233 MMX (@2.5 x 100 FSB), Diamond Viper V330 AGP, SB16 CT2800
Win98 - K6-2+ 500, GF2 MX, SB AWE 64 CT4500, SBLive CT4780
Win98 - Pentium III 1000, GF2 GTS, SBLive CT4760
WinXP - Athlon 64 3200+, GF 7800 GS, Audigy 2 ZS

Reply 49 of 58, by Namrok

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So funny story. I was trying to play Might & Magic on this. And if you've played, you know you need to press CTRL-A through CTRL-Z to add characters to your party. But CTRL-B refused to work! It kept acting like CTRL-F! I had no way to add that character in.

After pulling out a keychecker, I see that the ascii codes for CTRL-B and CTRL-V are not matching my other systems. Chasing things further up the vine, I saw the scancode translation table in the BIOS had erroneous entries. So I changed them to match, and pushed the changes up through github. They've been merged. But if you are having this extremely niche issue, here are the bios files, as well as a 1.44 floppy image with everything you need on it.

I expect this is only effecting programs that check for CTRL-CHAR using their ascii codes 1-26, instead of their scancodes and the shift flags. Or writing their own keyboard interrupt routine. Not sure how many programs chose to do things that way, but Might & Magic did apparently. Cheers!

Win95/DOS 7.1 - P233 MMX (@2.5 x 100 FSB), Diamond Viper V330 AGP, SB16 CT2800
Win98 - K6-2+ 500, GF2 MX, SB AWE 64 CT4500, SBLive CT4780
Win98 - Pentium III 1000, GF2 GTS, SBLive CT4760
WinXP - Athlon 64 3200+, GF 7800 GS, Audigy 2 ZS

Reply 50 of 58, by digger

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Have any NuXT owners here by any chance tried GLaBIOS with it yet? It's an open-source alternative BIOS for IBM PCs and compatible systems with 8088 and V20 CPUs, including "turbo" clones.

Reply 51 of 58, by Namrok

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So I may have fixed the issue noticed here.

TLDR: The NuXT is not failing to boot. It is failing to print to the screen in monochrome mode. You can still enter commands, you just can't see what you are typing. Two bugs are at play here. The Trident 9000i randomly boots into Monochrome mode, and the 8088 BIOS stomps over parts of the VGA BIOS Init. I can't fix the former, as it's a hardware issue. I believe I fixed the latter.

Long Version: The VGA BIOS of the Trident 9000i sets bits 4 and 5 for "Initial Video Mode" when it's initialization function at c000:0003 is called. It then looks at those bits in it's IRQ 10 handler to decide whether it's working in the address space b000 or b800. If "Initial Video Mode" is 3, it works in the b000 address space, writing characters and scrolling memory there. Otherwise it works in the b800 address space.

The 8088 BIOS the NuXT is running initializes the VGA BIOS, then immediately sets those bits to 0. Which makes a certain sense, going by a lot of the extant online documentation I can find. Most of them say 00 means EGA or later, with not much more to say on the matter. Either the Trident BIOS is doing something really nonstandard, or the intent of these bits is not to say what physical hardware is installed, but what the initial/current display mode capabilities are. Either 40x25 color text, 80x25 color text, 80x25 monochrome text, or some EGA/VGA display mode. A VGA card booting into 80x25 color should still set the bits for 80x25 color, not 00 for EGA+.

Or at least that's how the Trident BIOS is treating it. I may have dumped the ROM from my NuXT, fed it through a disassembler, and stepped through it's initialization and print functions to see where and why it was going off the rails in monochrome mode on the NuXT. Sent a pull request up through github, just commenting out the line which wipes those bits after VGA initialization. The fix works on my NuXT, but I'm not sure how other EGA/VGA cards might react to that change, since I have none to test it against.

What compounds this bug in the BIOS is that the Trident 9000i seems to erratically boot into monochrome mode when connected with a "modern" monitor. I saw posts online describing this happening going from a 1994 vintage CRT to a 1997 vintage CRT. The evolving usage of the ID pins just confuse it. So these two bugs together make it seem like the NuXT occasionally fails to boot.

Win95/DOS 7.1 - P233 MMX (@2.5 x 100 FSB), Diamond Viper V330 AGP, SB16 CT2800
Win98 - K6-2+ 500, GF2 MX, SB AWE 64 CT4500, SBLive CT4780
Win98 - Pentium III 1000, GF2 GTS, SBLive CT4760
WinXP - Athlon 64 3200+, GF 7800 GS, Audigy 2 ZS

Reply 52 of 58, by BloodyCactus

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Namrok wrote on 2022-11-07, 14:00:

If "Initial Video Mode" is 3, it works in the b000 address space, writing characters and scrolling memory there. Otherwise it works in the b800 address space.

mode 3 is uses 0xB800..

I believe, mode 7 is for monochrome, 0xB000.

sets bits 4 and 5 for "Initial Video Mode"

hmm that makes no sense at all on a vga card.

The 9000i is a VGA adapter, NOT an MDA adapter. Its not compatible with an MDA monitor. there is no reason for it to be trying to use MDA mode 7.

ooh also, mostly when people talk of IRQ, they usually mean in context of when hardware generate it, when its in software its just INT. Your usage of saying IRQ 10 threw me off until I realised you meant INT 0x10!

I looked at the github patch, and I dont think its doing what you think its doing. You do not have an MDA card, those bits are for MDA only. the 9000i is vga.

If your 9000i is erratically booting into monochrome mode(!), something else is going on.

--/\-[ Stu : Bloody Cactus :: [ https://bloodycactus.com :: http://kråketær.com ]-/\--

Reply 53 of 58, by Namrok

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BloodyCactus wrote on 2022-11-07, 17:38:
mode 3 is uses 0xB800.. […]
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Namrok wrote on 2022-11-07, 14:00:

If "Initial Video Mode" is 3, it works in the b000 address space, writing characters and scrolling memory there. Otherwise it works in the b800 address space.

mode 3 is uses 0xB800..

I believe, mode 7 is for monochrome, 0xB000.

sets bits 4 and 5 for "Initial Video Mode"

hmm that makes no sense at all on a vga card.

The 9000i is a VGA adapter, NOT an MDA adapter. Its not compatible with an MDA monitor. there is no reason for it to be trying to use MDA mode 7.

ooh also, mostly when people talk of IRQ, they usually mean in context of when hardware generate it, when its in software its just INT. Your usage of saying IRQ 10 threw me off until I realised you meant INT 0x10!

I looked at the github patch, and I dont think its doing what you think its doing. You do not have an MDA card, those bits are for MDA only. the 9000i is vga.

If your 9000i is erratically booting into monochrome mode(!), something else is going on.

So, like I said, it's two bugs. The 9000i erratically booting into monochrome mode is a separate problem, which will likely require snipping the ID pins off a VGA cable (or preferably a spare jumper or adapter), or some sort of jumper being added to the NuXT VGA card. I've been talking to Monotech about that, and I'm not the only one having that problem. It was a problem with the Trident 9000i you see people complaining about on forums since at least 1997. Regardless, when the Trident 9000i detects a monochrome monitor, rightly or wrongly, it sets the video mode to 7, and sets bits 4 and 5 at 40:10 to 11.

Which does seem odd, and does go against some of the extant online documentation I've seen, I agree with you. If you have more documentation on bits 4 and 5 of 40:10 I'd love to see it. The most detailed pages I've found are here and here. And the latter at techhelpmanual.com supports what I see the disassembled Trident BIOS doing. VGA card or not, it checks 40:10 against 0x30, and if both those bits are set works in the b000 segment versus the b800 segment for everything else. I also see it testing some ports in it's init routines, and setting those bits to 01, 10 or 11. I don't see it ever setting them to 00, although it's a lot to walk through, so maybe I just haven't found it yet.

Win95/DOS 7.1 - P233 MMX (@2.5 x 100 FSB), Diamond Viper V330 AGP, SB16 CT2800
Win98 - K6-2+ 500, GF2 MX, SB AWE 64 CT4500, SBLive CT4780
Win98 - Pentium III 1000, GF2 GTS, SBLive CT4760
WinXP - Athlon 64 3200+, GF 7800 GS, Audigy 2 ZS

Reply 54 of 58, by BloodyCactus

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well, the simple solution is to throw away the garbage 9000i card and get a proper vga card. theoretically, what its doing is correct in setting up monochrome, its just bad at genuinely detecting monochrome 😀

sergeys bios is doing the correct things, so patching the bios to fix the busted trident is not the correct fix imo.

--/\-[ Stu : Bloody Cactus :: [ https://bloodycactus.com :: http://kråketær.com ]-/\--

Reply 55 of 58, by Namrok

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Is it though? Out of curiosity, and for another reference point, I hopped on my K6-2 with a Geforce 2 MX. On bootup, in pure DOS mode, it sets up 40:10 to 0x26, 0x20 being the relevant bits. That would be 80x25 color. When I set it to VGA Mode 7, it changes 40:10 to 0x36. So it's behaving identically to the way the Trident 9000i BIOS tries to set those bits. I'm not sure Sergey's BIOS is correct when it wipes those bits to 0 after VGA Initialization.

Win95/DOS 7.1 - P233 MMX (@2.5 x 100 FSB), Diamond Viper V330 AGP, SB16 CT2800
Win98 - K6-2+ 500, GF2 MX, SB AWE 64 CT4500, SBLive CT4780
Win98 - Pentium III 1000, GF2 GTS, SBLive CT4760
WinXP - Athlon 64 3200+, GF 7800 GS, Audigy 2 ZS

Reply 56 of 58, by BloodyCactus

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the two bits in the bios 41:0 / aka int 0x11, show the mode the pc started in, its not supposed to change when you make a mode change call.

my pink shirt book, aka Peter Norton, says its "the equipment list is gathered on an as accurate-as-possible basis and may not be exactly correct". The list is made ONCE at start up.

sergeys bios (I hacked on it a lot when i did mods for his xi8088 board) is correct, it does a bios rom extension init, if it finds a bios at 0xC000 or 0xC800, it MUST be an EGA or VGA card, (CGA+MDA DO NOT HAVE BIOS ROMS), it clears the bits because they will always start in color 80x25 mode, only CGA or MDA will not have a bios rom extension so his bios does not clear those bits in that case.

00 - na (not any of the below)
01 - pcjr 40 col mode (pc/pcjr)
10 - 80 col color (cga)
11 - 80 col mono (mda)

(I ran a 9000B in mine with no problems). I think mostly its always set to 10 - 80 col colour, even on vga because everyone used it to detect basically 40/80 col, then color vs mono... rather than it being a CGA 80x25 screen (which obvioulsy is backward compat with VGA but still a CGA text mode)....

his bios is doing the correct thing. that does not mean the 9000i bios is doing the correct thing. there may be some discrepency with wahtever version of 9000i nuxt bios is using. maybe some of the pulls or pulldowns on the trident chip are not enough to drive some of the correct pins on bootup or something... dont know.

--/\-[ Stu : Bloody Cactus :: [ https://bloodycactus.com :: http://kråketær.com ]-/\--

Reply 57 of 58, by dondiego

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That's not a bug it happens with all old cards and (almost) everybody knows that. They repurposed some pins in the vga connector do a search in the forum. There's a trident software tool to set color mode in tvgautil it works with other cards as well.

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Reply 58 of 58, by Namrok

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BloodyCactus wrote on 2022-11-07, 23:03:
the two bits in the bios 41:0 / aka int 0x11, show the mode the pc started in, its not supposed to change when you make a mode c […]
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the two bits in the bios 41:0 / aka int 0x11, show the mode the pc started in, its not supposed to change when you make a mode change call.

my pink shirt book, aka Peter Norton, says its "the equipment list is gathered on an as accurate-as-possible basis and may not be exactly correct". The list is made ONCE at start up.

sergeys bios (I hacked on it a lot when i did mods for his xi8088 board) is correct, it does a bios rom extension init, if it finds a bios at 0xC000 or 0xC800, it MUST be an EGA or VGA card, (CGA+MDA DO NOT HAVE BIOS ROMS), it clears the bits because they will always start in color 80x25 mode, only CGA or MDA will not have a bios rom extension so his bios does not clear those bits in that case.

00 - na (not any of the below)
01 - pcjr 40 col mode (pc/pcjr)
10 - 80 col color (cga)
11 - 80 col mono (mda)

(I ran a 9000B in mine with no problems). I think mostly its always set to 10 - 80 col colour, even on vga because everyone used it to detect basically 40/80 col, then color vs mono... rather than it being a CGA 80x25 screen (which obvioulsy is backward compat with VGA but still a CGA text mode)....

his bios is doing the correct thing. that does not mean the 9000i bios is doing the correct thing. there may be some discrepency with wahtever version of 9000i nuxt bios is using. maybe some of the pulls or pulldowns on the trident chip are not enough to drive some of the correct pins on bootup or something... dont know.

Thanks for the heads up about that book. But I'm reading over it, and I'm not seeing it indicate what you claim as strongly as you claim it. For example, it does say that the equipment list is gathered once at startup. But it goes onto say that it can, and is, modified by software afterwards. Furthermore, I've tested several more of my systems. The Asus P5A with a Diamond Viper V330 shows the same behavior as the Trident, setting the equipment list to 80x25 (0b10) Color in Mode 3 or 80x25 Monochrome (0b11) in Mode 7. So does the Geforce 2 MX on an MVP3 based PC Partner board. So does the Geforce 2 on an ASUS CUSL2-C. Not one single video card/motherboard combo I have set up right now shows the behavior you say is correct. Where the equipment list has the initial video mode set to 0b00 because a video BIOS is present, and it never changes regardless of mode changes.

I'm just not seeing any of these cards or bioses initializing the equipment list bits for initial video mode to 00 for EGA+. They are all initialized to 2 for 80x25 Color, and switch to 3 for 80x25 monochrome when I switch to mode 7. It's possible Sergey is technically correct, which can be the best kind of correct. But it's apparently out of step with how every other system I own handles the issue, and it's resulting in display bugs when at least some VGA cards boot in monochrome mode.

Win95/DOS 7.1 - P233 MMX (@2.5 x 100 FSB), Diamond Viper V330 AGP, SB16 CT2800
Win98 - K6-2+ 500, GF2 MX, SB AWE 64 CT4500, SBLive CT4780
Win98 - Pentium III 1000, GF2 GTS, SBLive CT4760
WinXP - Athlon 64 3200+, GF 7800 GS, Audigy 2 ZS