VOGONS


Reply 20 of 61, by mkarcher

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MrMateczko wrote on 2022-11-13, 19:26:

As for the Celeron 333MHz/AMD K6-2 450MHz - how would they compare with same RAM and S3 Virge GX (or similar/better GPU)? I'll be doing tests myself as well.

Probably they are around on par. The Celeron 333MHz (Mendocino core) has 128KB L2 at 333MHz (yeah, full core speed!), whereas the AMD K6-2 uses L2 on the mainboard, likely 512KB at 100MHz. As far as I understand it, the execution engine of the Pentium II/Celeron is slightly more powerful than the AMD K6-2 execution engine. Probably the K6 still has a slight advantage due to the significantly higher clock in most software. Don't expect too much of the 3D performance of the Virge/GX, though. I know, I am just the person who warned agains "retro snobism" some posts ago, but at 3D graphics in 1998 there was just one gold standard: The 3Dfx Voodoo 2 chipset. Most games at that time were optimized for it. The Virge/GX is not a bad card. It provides excellent 2D performance, and entry level 3D performance.

The very bad reputation of the Virge being a "3D decelerator" was not completely undeserved for the original Virge chip, but already kind of unfair for the second generation Virge chip, the Virge/DX. The Virge/GX might be considered third generation, and it definitely helps with 3D rendering. Games using Direct3D for 3D rendering can make use of the Virge/GX accelerator, and will likely work with sufficient performance at 640x480, so the card is not a bad start.

MrMateczko wrote on 2022-11-13, 19:26:

Also bought at a reasonable price an ESS1688 ISA sound card, I think it's a good choice from what I've read. Would be interesting to test the OPL emulation between it and the CMI8330 that it integrated in the PCChips motherboard.

This card is neither SB16 nor WSS compatible, but it provides good SB Pro and OPL3 compatibility and is generally regarded as a good retro gaming card. You shouldn't have any significant problems with it, especially for DOS games.

MrMateczko wrote on 2022-11-13, 19:26:

My family's first PC was in circa 1999-2000 with a Celeron 533MHz Socket 370 with 192MB RAM that was upgraded from unknown stock amount, and a S3 Savage4 GPU (upgraded later to I think GeForce 2 MX or something alike). It had a yellow motherboard with a VIA chipset...and that's all the information I have on it, I still do not know what was the model of the motherboard and what was the sound card. I remember DOS games running well so maybe it was ISA, dunno. Of course Win98SE, only a few childhood pics remain 😀

The stock amount most likely was 64MB, and the upgrade was adding another 128MB DIMM to it. An option for a yellow motherboard that fits the general theme of that computer could be the Shuttle HOT-681V or the Elitegroup P6BAP-A+, but those are definitely not the only option.

Reply 21 of 61, by the3dfxdude

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BitWrangler wrote on 2022-11-13, 19:46:
mkarcher wrote on 2022-11-13, 19:13:
BitWrangler wrote on 2022-11-13, 18:43:

i.e. if a game supports SSE you better have PIII-700 up or it will get nasty. (Or a Duron 600 😜 )

Just to make sure this is not misunderstood: The Duron 600 might be fast enough to run a game with SSE support at a reasonable speed, but it does not support SSE. If the game only runs at acceptable speed on a PIII-700 because it makes heavy use of SSE, then it will not be playable on a Duron 600. On the other hand, if "supports SSE" just references an era in which SSE support was common, but games were still designed to work quite well even without SSE (possibly at lower graphics detail level), then a Duron 600 could be a adequate non-SSE platform to run that game.

Derp yes, Duron didn't get SSE until morgan cores. Doesn't help my memory circuits that journos used to refer to 3DNow and 3DNow+ as "an SSE implementation" since they are streaming extensions just not the "SSE" set Intel uses.

I never considered 3DNow as "an SSE implementation", as 3DNow came out before SSE, and not compatible anyway. However... if the purpose is close enough, has anyone benchmarked software compiler optimized for SSE vs 3DNow? I mean, why after so long, firefox decided to go with SSE instead of also supporting 3DNow (ignore that AMD dropped 3DNow long before the final switch?). Each evolution of AMD, K6-2/3, Athlon/Duron, Athlon XP may be interesting too on why no one really looked at it, if SSE just happens to be worth it NOW after all this time.

As I read up on the differences between 3DNow and SSE, my interests has grown for another reason. 3DNow uses the same registers as the FPU, and so does not add registers. Of course having more registers is really nice. But then the nice thing about 3DNow is that you don't have to update your kernel to use it safely. This means that 3DNow will be compatible with Windows 95, or before even, and does not need to be patched to use it like SSE would. This means that an SSE-like modern firefox can be compiled for Windows 95 for AMD (if they did not break firefox in other ways) for socket 7 or later processors, even if some processors have SSE support, if all you need to do is flip compiler switches. Why did not anyone think of this? I'd hate to leave potential performance behind, even if it would be hard to support this in legacy game code, it still can get used some places.

Reply 22 of 61, by Sphere478

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Usually these “3d now”, and “mmx”, and “sse” descriptions are actually a collection of smaller features.

If I recall, some of the stuff in 3dnow was implemented in sse. But much of it wasn’t. Though I could be wrong.

Conversely, not all of the stuff implimented in cyrix’s 686 was a full accounting of what intel later called a 686 full feature set.

These are kinda just buzzwords for smaller, more technical features. Those smaller features are what really matter.

Sphere's PCB projects.
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Reply 23 of 61, by MrMateczko

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Considering the CRT that I also got recently - LG StudioWorks 520Si - that works best at 800x600x85Hz (1024x768x60Hz is too small and too headache inducing for me), anything that can work at that resolution is enough for me. 😀

Maybe that ESS card will make sound with music work in Ganja Farmer, for some reason never got this game to work with all features on a real hardware yet 😀

As for 3DNow, apart from its logo appearing here and there, it was never really a talking point, it just kinda...exists 😀

Reply 24 of 61, by rasz_pl

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mkarcher wrote on 2022-11-13, 17:39:

just wow, so much knowledge!

mkarcher wrote on 2022-11-13, 18:31:

Back in the end of the 90s, K6-2 computers were widespread. K6-III computers were rare, as the price advantage of the Super Socket 7 platfrom compared to the Slot 1 platform diminished when buying a K6-III processor.

I dont think there ever was a price advantage. K6/K6-2 were popular as cheapskate upgrade option for ~2 year old S7 systems, and made financial sense in a narrow several month window between K6-2 and Celeron Mendocino release in 1998. August 1998 Intel started selling legendary (to overclockers) $149 Celeron 300A. Cheap 440BX board was $140 in 1998, down to $120 in 1999. Add Celeron300A@450 down to $90 at the end of 1998 (was always kept a hair cheaper than K6-2/300) with 4 strips of electrical tape over some pins and you have top of the line performance for bottom dollar.
K6-3 was a TERRIBLE processor for a new system 🙁. It was ~$120, more than _brand new_ Duron and Coppermine Celerons.

akiba-pc.watch.impress.co.jp is a great source of historical price data. December 1998 https://akiba-pc.watch.impress.co.jp/hotline/981226.html https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/bank-of-eng … USD-to-JPY-1998 ~120 yen to $1

cpu https://akiba-pc.watch.impress.co.jp/hotline/ … 1226/p_cpu.html
Celeron 300A MHz 10,440 ~$90
K6-2/300 10,850 ~100

motherboards from newcomers https://akiba-pc.watch.impress.co.jp/hotline/ … 26/newitem.html

ZIDA BXi98-ATX (440BX,ATX,AGP1,PCI4,PCI/ISA1,ISA1,DIMM3) 15,800 ~$140
FIC PA2013 (MVP3,ATX,2MB,AGP1,PCI3,PCI/ISA1,ISA1,DIMM3) 2MB cache 13,800 ~$130

Bargains, I think this is mostly second hand/no warranty stuff https://akiba-pc.watch.impress.co.jp/hotline/ … 1226/price.html

FIC PA2013 (Socket 7M/B, MVP3, ATX, 1MB) 1MB cache, old revision 9,980 ~$90
FIC PA2012 (Socket 7M/B, VP3, ATX, 1MB) 5,800 ~$55
EPoX EP-61BXA-M (Slot 1M/B, 440BX, ATX) Non-returnable 9,800 ~$90
Abit BH6 (Slot 1M/B, 440BX, ATX) no warranty 12,470 ~$110
Abit BH6 (Slot 1M/B, 440BX, ATX) Only for initial failure 12,750 ~$115

Going with K6-2 gave you added bonus of unstable AGP.

K6-2/3 vs stock Celerons doesnt look so hot in modern programs either https://www.cnews.cz/test-historickych-proces … il-i-1995-1999/

Open Source AT&T Globalyst/NCR/FIC 486-GAC-2 proprietary Cache Module reproduction

Reply 25 of 61, by Sphere478

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Tell me about the electrical tape mod please?

Sphere's PCB projects.
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Sphere’s socket 5/7 cpu collection.
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SUCCESSFUL K6-2+ to K6-3+ Full Cache Enable Mod
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Tyan S1564S to S1564D single to dual processor conversion (also s1563 and s1562)

Reply 26 of 61, by the3dfxdude

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rasz_pl wrote on 2022-11-14, 00:05:

K6-3 was a TERRIBLE processor for a new system 🙁. It was ~$120, more than _brand new_ Duron and Coppermine Celerons.

Maybe at the very end of 2000, there wasn't much reason for anyone to start a new budget build on socket 7 when the Duron came out. But the k6-3 was not $120 in 2000. I remember buying a couple k6-3 333mhz for around $60 (the cheapest chip in it's class), and most every speed level was around $10 more. Maybe the 450mhz was at most $100. I never saw a 475mhz in stock. I remember go back to the store regularly to see if they'd drop further. It might be possible the k6-2 500/550 were around $120, which was then outrageous, which is why I never bought one (no l2 cache). So as I kept checking, I noticed they simply stopped stocking the 450mhz's not long after, which probably coincided with the Duron coming market. And later the slower speeds. Sure they probably still sold in budget oem or laptop settings for a few more years. I think the higher speed offerings on socket 7 were killed off quicker in the retail market to not undercut the Duron and Athlon sales with a cheaper chip. Frankly the k6-2 was never really that good even with the higher speeds it provided. But the k6-3 was interesting on the extended socket 7 run, and is still wanted by some people today.

Reply 27 of 61, by rasz_pl

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the3dfxdude wrote on 2022-11-14, 01:55:

But the k6-3 was not $120 in 2000. I remember buying a couple k6-3 333mhz for around $60 (the cheapest chip in it's class), and most every speed level was around $10 more. Maybe the 450mhz was at most $100.

First K6-3 to show up in Japan was K6-III/400 at hilarious 35,500 yen aka $295!! in March 1999 https://akiba-pc.watch.impress.co.jp/hotline/ … 0313/p_cpu.html
Price of full Pentium II 400MHz or over four Celerons 300A.
By January 2000 https://akiba-pc.watch.impress.co.jp/hotline/ … 0108/p_cpu.html
K6-III/450 14,550 $140 <- !!!
K6-III/400 8,980 $85
Celeron 300A $57

A week before Duron premiere the person responsible for gathering price data went on a trip to Taiwan https://akiba-pc.watch.impress.co.jp/hotline/ … 0610/p_cpu.html Those are prices from June 9, 2000 Taiwan / Guanghua computer market:
Pentium 3 ~500MHz ~$210
Celeron 533A 11,730 ~$110
K6-2/550 7,762 $74
K6-2/500 5,692 $54

No k6-3 listed at all, instead we get a nice bit of history trivia:
"Overclocking is popular in Taiwan as well, and I saw a shop selling CPUs that have been confirmed to operate at a clock higher than the regulation at a higher price than the market price. For example, the Athlon 550MHz, whose operation was confirmed at 950MHz, was sold at NT$8,800, nearly double the market price. Recently, like Akihabara, Celeron 533A MHz seems to be popular, and some places put up a list of which lots operated at 900MHz or higher."
Been there done that. In 2000 I worked at huge national PC parts distributor and did my share of selling OC selected CPUs 😀

First time Duron shows up in Akihabara is June 17 2000 https://akiba-pc.watch.impress.co.jp/hotline/ … 0617/p_cpu.html
Celeron 533A 10,570 $100
Duron 600MHz 9,990 $95
K6-III/450 24,800 $236 AHAHAHAHAHA
K6-III/400 14,800 $140
K6-2/550 7,949 $76
K6-2/533 5,970 $57
K6-2/500 5,350 $50

week later https://akiba-pc.watch.impress.co.jp/hotline/ … 0624/p_cpu.html
Celeron 533A 9,980 $95
Duron 600MHz 9,480 $90
K6-III/450 24,800 $230 AHAHAHAHAHA
K6-III/400 15,800 $150 the f is with those prices 😀
K6-2/550 7,940 $76
K6-2/533 6,700 $63
K6-2/500 5,300 $50

Looks like by the time Durons showed up nobody was bothering to stock K6-3, only 3 vendors in Akihabara had them at those hilarious prices 😀

Poland September 1999 https://imgur.com/a8jdnDE
https://www.moneyratestoday.com/exchange-rate … .html?date=1999 0.244746 exchange rate

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Pentium III 450MHz 1260 $308
Pentium II 400MHz 943 $231
Celeron 366MHz 348 $85 (300A missing from the list, but was still available and selling cheaper)
K6-III/450 1108 $271 AHAHAHAHAHA
K6-III/400 877 $215 :----D
K6-2/400 397 $97 haha
K6-2/350 230 $56

As you can see Japan wasnt an exception. AMD was trying to price K6-3 at Pentium 2/3 level of same clock speed, hilariously delusional.
I never saw irl k6-3 333 sold in Poland. I dont see them ever showing up in Japan either, where did you get yours? I have a feeling those were OEM for bottom feeding DELL/PackerdBell/eMachines .. or Frys? https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/is-there … -333mhz.403210/

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Reply 28 of 61, by the3dfxdude

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rasz_pl wrote on 2022-11-14, 19:26:
the3dfxdude wrote on 2022-11-14, 01:55:

But the k6-3 was not $120 in 2000. I remember buying a couple k6-3 333mhz for around $60 (the cheapest chip in it's class), and most every speed level was around $10 more. Maybe the 450mhz was at most $100.

First K6-3 to show up in Japan was K6-III/400 at hilarious 35,500 yen aka $295!! in March 1999

Those prices are ridiculous. I remember Athlons starting around $150-$200, and they are obviously faster. There is no way k6-3s would have sold at that price. It is true that there wasn't much of a reason for k6 after Duron came out. I think I did a couple Duron builds for people. Why is Japan a reference here? They seem like they were behind in the market.

Yes, these are frys prices or other wholesellers.

Reply 30 of 61, by Jasin Natael

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I upgraded from a k6-2 500 to a Duron 700? 750?
I can't recall, but it was from a mega cheap PC Chips board with the K6, to another mega cheap Biostar board for the Duron.
It was a night and day difference.

K6-2 chips by my experience were great for what they were, but did not scale well past about 400mhz

Reply 31 of 61, by rasz_pl

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the3dfxdude wrote on 2022-11-14, 20:40:

Those prices are ridiculous. I remember Athlons starting around $150-$200, and they are obviously faster.

you can check prices yourself https://akiba-pc.watch.impress.co.jp/hotline/backnum.html

Official announcement June 23 1999, official shipping date August 17, 1999. A week after announcement reservations started at Akihabara https://akiba-pc.watch.impress.co.jp/hotline/ … 0703/p_cpu.html
https://akiba-pc.watch.impress.co.jp/hotline/ … 0703/price.html
"AMD Athlon 500-600MHz (bulk) price display. The product is scheduled to arrive in mid-July, and reservations are being accepted. However, there is no specific arrival schedule for compatible motherboards yet."
"the K7 revised "Athlon" has been given a price and reservations have also started. The estimated price is 44,800 yen for 500MHz, 69,800 yen for 550MHz, and 89,800 yen for 600MHz."
Those were Pentium 3 450-550MHz prices.

A week before official AMD shipping date retail Athlons arrive in Japan https://akiba-pc.watch.impress.co.jp/hotline/990813.html
"AMD's latest CPU "Athlon" will be sold in Akihabara without waiting for the official release date on the 17th is started. All products on the market are imported products, and 3 models of 500MHz/550MHz/600MHz are on sale. The sale of compatible motherboards has also started, and it is possible to obtain it alone, including Athlon"
https://akiba-pc.watch.impress.co.jp/hotline/ … 0813/p_cpu.html
~$380-800 depending on speed.
https://akiba-pc.watch.impress.co.jp/hotline/ … 13/newitem.html
athlon3.jpg
athlon4.jpg

For reference in US 4 days later on August 17 Alienware was merely teasing pictures of Athlon system 😀 https://www.shacknews.com/article/1019/wheres-my-athlon According to Anand "OEMs will start advertising Athlon based systems starting August 16, 1999" https://www.anandtech.com/show/355/24

the3dfxdude wrote on 2022-11-14, 20:40:

Why is Japan a reference here? They seem like they were behind in the market.

Other way around. Taiwan was always first to get new hardware (obviously, thats where motherboards were being designed and manufactured), Japan couple days later, rest of the world up to weeks delay.

the3dfxdude wrote on 2022-11-14, 20:40:

Yes, these are frys prices or other wholesellers.

So it was a clearance of a product that was never officially sold in retail.

Open Source AT&T Globalyst/NCR/FIC 486-GAC-2 proprietary Cache Module reproduction

Reply 32 of 61, by the3dfxdude

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rasz_pl wrote on 2022-11-14, 22:18:
the3dfxdude wrote on 2022-11-14, 20:40:

Yes, these are frys prices or other wholesellers.

So it was a clearance of a product that was never officially sold in retail.

No, frys is a retail store. Wholesellers doesn't mean clearance either. But in the case of frys, they eventually pushed out k6 when it wasn't worth keeping around, and they had weekly sales to be competitive just like any other store, but they had about the lowest prices at the time. The prices are what I remember around ~2000 before and after the Duron came out. The speed wars changed the market fast, so it doesn't make sense to look at the launch prices of k6 models. We all moved to build better stuff for people when better options came out pretty quick.

Reply 33 of 61, by rasz_pl

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the3dfxdude wrote on 2022-11-15, 01:03:
rasz_pl wrote on 2022-11-14, 22:18:
the3dfxdude wrote on 2022-11-14, 20:40:

Yes, these are frys prices or other wholesellers.

So it was a clearance of a product that was never officially sold in retail.

No, frys is a retail store. Wholesellers doesn't mean clearance either. But in the case of frys, they eventually pushed out k6 when it wasn't worth keeping around,

K6-3 333MHz was never a retail product, or even an official product according to AMD ("AMD-K6®-III Processor Data Sheet 21918B/0—October 1999"). https://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/K6-III/AMD-K6- … III-333AFR.html https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/is-there … -333mhz.403210/ https://forum.pcmech.com/threads/overclocking … -possible.4182/ https://forums.anandtech.com/threads/what-is- … 4/#post-9427764 multiple sources pointing out Fry's as the only place this CPU was ever sold at, and at least 5 posters all claim to have bought one either alone or in a combo deal with ss7 motherboard.

Nov 26, 2000
>Soyo SY-5EMA+ mb AMD K6-3 333mhz ATX case...for $99
Nov 27, 2000
>That AMD K6-3 333mhz is for real. I got one from Fry's with an FIC mobo for $79
Nov 27, 2000
>I purchased both of them at Frys in Portland, OR several months ago. One was included in a combo deal w/a FIC PA2013 mb/cpu for $79.- I bought the other cpu only for $29
Nov 28, 2000
>Fry's sells them for $29

"buying a couple k6-3 333mhz for around $60" Did you mean two for $60 total? And are you from Oregon/California by any chance? That would be a perfect match 😀
All suggests it was either made specifically for Fry's or for some OEM and Fry's got their hand on leftovers from weird source, like that Huge number of K6-2E+/570ACZ CPUs for sale on eBay some time ago all in neat trays siting somewhere in a warehouse for 20 years. Cant really argue its a normal price for a normal product when even manufacturer doesnt acknowledge its existence and it was only available at one point in time in late November 2000 at one retailer at a fire sale. Real freak occurrence 😀

Open Source AT&T Globalyst/NCR/FIC 486-GAC-2 proprietary Cache Module reproduction

Reply 34 of 61, by rmay635703

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The thing to understand was “early” K6-2’s were almost always purchased as apart of a bundle.

In a bundle circa 1998 the price difference between a k6-2 barebones and a Celeron could be over $100, let alone as a “not barebones” system.

Late K6-2’s could be bought very cheap even into the Duron era and mobile (not + ) k6-2’s @ 1.8 volts could be had even cheaper.

In my case I had a lot of 250watt AT Midtowers with a 486 inside, bought a bunch of m569’s (poor man’s m571) and then Random k6-2’s made sense and you could drop in anything up to 500mhz and have a 4mb integrated graphics and sound. Could even reuse the ram in many cases.

The boards didn’t recognize or have low enough voltages for k6-3+ so I never considered them.

Very good for web surfing and late dos gaming. Low end windows gaming would work but the video card was WAY too slow for a lot of stuff into the 1999 era.

Still good for a very very cheap system ($40 all in some cases circa 2000) 256mb pc133 cl3 low density was only about $12 a
Module briefly in that era which made a cheap system even better.

Still made sense for the folks wanting a semi modern web surfer for minimal money, even up against the Windows XP launch since things still worked.

Reply 35 of 61, by appiah4

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MrMateczko wrote on 2022-11-13, 03:26:

Is there any noticable difference in real life usage between 400-550MHz clocks on the regular AMD K6-2 (not +)?

Even on a Voodoo 2 yes there is.

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Reply 36 of 61, by Sphere478

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I can confirm the existence of the k6-3 333 I have one

Sphere's PCB projects.
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Sphere’s socket 5/7 cpu collection.
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SUCCESSFUL K6-2+ to K6-3+ Full Cache Enable Mod
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Tyan S1564S to S1564D single to dual processor conversion (also s1563 and s1562)

Reply 37 of 61, by appiah4

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Sphere478 wrote on 2022-11-15, 11:00:

I can confirm the existence of the k6-3 333 I have one

Is it a mobile K6-2? I have a K6-2/366 and mine is a mobile CPU.

Retronautics: A digital gallery of my retro computers, hardware and projects.

Reply 38 of 61, by The Serpent Rider

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mkarcher wrote:

In use cases where the working set significantly exceeds the L2 cache size of the Pentium II (which is 256KB),

Pentium II has 512kb L2 cache, just as most SS7 boards.

BitWrangler wrote:

Doesn't help my memory circuits that journos used to refer to 3DNow and 3DNow+ as "an SSE implementation" since they are streaming extensions just not the "SSE" set Intel uses.

3DNow is in fact "piggybacking" on MMX instructions set (with some limitations), while SSE is a separate set of instructions. So you can use 3DNow in Windows 95 🤣

I must be some kind of standard: the anonymous gangbanger of the 21st century.

Reply 39 of 61, by appiah4

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The Serpent Rider wrote on 2022-11-15, 11:19:
Pentium II has 512kb L2 cache, just as most SS7 boards. […]
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mkarcher wrote:

In use cases where the working set significantly exceeds the L2 cache size of the Pentium II (which is 256KB),

Pentium II has 512kb L2 cache, just as most SS7 boards.

BitWrangler wrote:

Doesn't help my memory circuits that journos used to refer to 3DNow and 3DNow+ as "an SSE implementation" since they are streaming extensions just not the "SSE" set Intel uses.

3DNow is in fact "piggybacking" on MMX instructions set (with some limitations), while SSE is a separate set of instructions. So you can use 3DNow in Windows 95 🤣

My K6-2 system is currently a FIC board with 1MB L2 cache though how much better performance that really provides, I can not say..

Retronautics: A digital gallery of my retro computers, hardware and projects.