Standard Def Steve wrote on 2022-10-06, 22:06:

🙋‍♂️ Tualatin DDR owner here. Yeah, going from 694T (SDR) to Apollo Pro 266T, I saw a quite significant boost in system performance across the board. However, I believe most of the extra performance comes from a more refined memory and AGP controller, rather than the raw bandwidth of DDR itself.

Plus, with cheap and plentiful PC3200, you can easily set your memory timings at 2-2-2-5, which results in amazingly low memory latency. Can't easily do that with SDR, especially if you're running at bus speeds greater than 133 MHz.

..shhh some users here seem to have the mind set that 133Mhz was the only bus speed Tualatin could run at.

So, I'm reading a lot of love for all 3 builds, but I see some issues:

0. I forgot, did 478 do away with ISA slots? Should I find one with it, or just stick to PCI+AGP?

1. What's with the heatsinks/coolers for 478?

2. Seems Prescott gets the most hate?

3. P4 with HT will work just fine in 9x right (one core/one thread) but improve WinXP tasks?

4. Any reason not to look at Extreme Editions - Gallatin/Prescott-2M?

5. C2D > Pentium D > Pentium 4 HT, right? 9x won't notice it, and XP will work better?

6.

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2022-10-04, 17:34:

Yesn't.

Care to elaborate a bit? Do I even bother with PC/SBLINK? Which soundcards?

7.

weldum wrote on 2022-10-07, 02:05:

-s775 with agp: there are some boards that can use c2d processors (one board from asus with i865 chipset comes to my mind that can use Dual Channel DDR) and many, if not all, can use sata. Anyway most boards out there are limited to Core2Duo E4xxx/Pentium E2xxx, Pentium D or even only Prescott P4, one board that comes in mind is the ASUS P5VD1-X , which supports up to Pentium D 9xx series, has PCI-E and AGP, DDR Dual Channel and sata but chipset compatibility may be problematic.
-s775 with PCI-E: be aware that there are some boards that will only go up to Core2Duo E4xxx/Pentium E2xxx, Pentium D or even only Prescott P4, others may do better but the chipset compatibility can be worse, specially as you approach DDR2 or DDR3

for me, 775 with agp may be the sweet spot as far as compatibility and drivers are concerned. Higher will do better assuming you can get it working sucessfully, and lower has it's own problems like getting the right heatsink

Wouldn't 775+PCIE CPUs go higher that what you copy pasted from 775+AGP?
What's happening with the heatsinks?

8. Could someone list some chipsets that are good for 478 and early 775? AKA when do drivers disappear/9x won't work?

0. 478 boards with isa? I've seen a few but these are industrial ones and may not be very compatible with soundcards in dos, you have to take in account if the soundcard needs - 12v (i think) as some atx psu don't have that.

1. the clamping system used to attach the heatsink relies on plastics that aren't the most durable, both the heatsink and the motherboard bracket may broke easily. if you manage to get a good quality heatsink and bracket you should not worry about it.

2. Prescott isn't a bad core but simply the performance gains over Northwood aren't as big as the increase in heat generation. with a good - copper core - heatsink you should be fine.

3. will do fine but I've seen some videos where they disable ht for 9x os, don't know why.

4. they should be better, assuming you can find them at good prices, however you may want to use them in - top of the line - motherboards.

5. right.

7. copy pasted?
775+pci-e is the best if you can get working it right as chipset drivers for those platforms rarely get any driver for 9x, instead forcing you to use patches and modded drivers. is not a bad choice, just be aware that it may be more difficult to get everything right.

8. from the top of my head:
most VIA chipsets may run in 9x with more or less success as the latest driver support 98se but the drivers aren't tuned for that os
SiS chipsets may work too, it's drivers are very universal too
Intel may be problematic or you may need to use a older one to get it to work nice
Nvidia can be problematic too
just be aware of ram limits if you don't use a patch, set sata drives as ide/compatible in the bios and disable any integrated hardware that you don't need, like integrated modem

2mg wrote on 2022-10-09, 15:19:

8. Could someone list some chipsets that are good for 478 and early 775? AKA when do drivers disappear/9x won't work?

Intel 98 drivers go up to 915/ICH6, anything there and below is supported on 98. Board maker drivers for motherboards with those chipsets is hit or miss, but you can just download the Intel drivers here regardless of motherboard vendor support.

I have a 478 P4 Northwood build with ISA. I don't think the board is classed as Industrial as it's a Soyo Board. I use it as my "Fast" Win98 rig alongside my P233mmx with Win95.

Spec is as following

SOYO SY-P4I845PEISA P4 Motherboard (AGP, 4x PCI, 3x ISA)
Pentium 4 3.06 Northwood CPU
512 DDR 2700 Ram (Single Stick)
Nvidia Geforce 5900XT 128MB AGP Graphics Card
Creative SB Audigy 2 ZS
Aureal A3D Vortex 2
SB Awe64 Gold

Smashes through all Win98 games and also runs the more heavy dos games. I think its a wicked pairing with my 233mmx

weldum wrote on 2022-10-09, 16:00:

0. 478 boards with isa? I've seen a few but these are industrial ones and may not be very compatible with soundcards in dos, you have to take in account if the soundcard needs - 12v (i think) as some atx psu don't have that.

Check out this old thread: Socket 478 ISA motherboards - Anyone try them?

Similar to 775+AGP: Your choice would be limited as they are less common.

Scythe Ninja should definitely take care of all your P4 cooling needs.

I also liked those Arctic Cooling Accelero coolers until I had to replace the fans a few times because their bearings go bad.

So, I got my hands on a socket 478 Asrock P4V88+, didn't boot it yet (I'm seeing some nasty stuff around VRMs).
Prolly has a Celeron that will become a P4 3.4Ghz HT (would I fry it if I put P4EE inside, Gallatin isn't on the supported list?).
Also, two sticks of DDR1 256MB, and an ATi X1600 (Pro?) 256DDR2.

All in all, seems like a nifty early XP/pre-Vista PC, if it works at all though.

So I got into some reading about GPUs, that would work in W98 and XP multiboot.
And the findings are bad:
- 8-bit/palette/fog issues with GF 6 series onwards
- instability with GF 7 series, some even say GF 6s are unstable
- Some top GeForce 4 cards being close to mid tier GeForce FX cards
- FX series being crappy at DirectX 9 games aka XP
- 512MB VRAM W98 crash issues
- HSI AGP<>PCIE bridge, AGP voltages, spotting an AGP GPU without a bridge...
- dunno if ATI is offering a better rounded card

Basically, there isn't a one GPU solution here - either swapping two top tier cards out per OS, or a best possible PCI GPU for W98 and AGP for XP.

I'd just like to know what's the best possible, but mostly compatible/stable W98 PCI GPU, I can't find any reliable info if GF4 or GF FX came in PCI flavor (not PCIE), how do I spot GF8 GPUs that are AGP native (no HSI bridge), and would the PCI hamper the performance that much?
Also, are there are any ATi contenders here, and should I look for Voodoo 3 PCI or Voodoo 5 PCI (don't tell me I also need 2 for both OS)?
For XP, it's 8800 flavor, since it's literary pre-Vista, good at DX9, and DX10 ready.

PS: This is all unless ATi has something that's better than FX in DX9/XP, and similar performance with no palette issues and similar in W98.

IIRC, GF4 can only be found in the lipsticked GF2, GF4x0 MX variety on PCI, which should be fine for all Win98 games that don't run on XP, and in the FX5x00s came as 5200 and 5500. However, the GF2MX PCI cards should also be considered for pre2001 win98. PCI 3D cards suddenly shot up in price lately though and there's not much around below $100.

edit: Just thinking, not sure if there's any onboard graphics worth having for early 98 won't play on XP games. Trident Blade I think works on some. Ati Xpress isn't bad but not sure there was a 478 board. Nforce was also later, not sure if 478 boards with the NF2 GF4MX exist. SiS boards maybe had the 315, which was kinda middling TNT2 card performance.

BitWrangler wrote on 2022-11-05, 12:38:

IIRC, GF4 can only be found in the lipsticked GF2, GF4x0 MX variety on PCI, which should be fine for all Win98 games that don't run on XP, and in the FX5x00s came as 5200 and 5500. However, the GF2MX PCI cards should also be considered for pre2001 win98. PCI 3D cards suddenly shot up in price lately though and there's not much around below $100.

edit: Just thinking, not sure if there's any onboard graphics worth having for early 98 won't play on XP games. Trident Blade I think works on some. Ati Xpress isn't bad but not sure there was a 478 board. Nforce was also later, not sure if 478 boards with the NF2 GF4MX exist. SiS boards maybe had the 315, which was kinda middling TNT2 card performance.

I'm assuming GF2MX < GF4xxMX < 5200 < 5500?

What about ATi side, the alternative to FX5000 series (are they as compatible as FX series ala table fog, but worth in Dx9), or ATi vs GF6000 series?

2mg wrote on 2022-10-04, 16:53:

I'm gonna stir the hornet's nest and probably flog a dead horse too, but here it goes.

Based on your list, you need a computer that has good dos and win9x support, but also can support xp era software and games as much as its possible.
For this purpose, you need something with an ISA port, such as a Slot1, a socket 370, or a slot -a motherboard. (k7 or pentium3).
Rare but possible is to find K7 (sockat-a) motherboards with isa slot. IRQ compatibility is might be limited on those, so you must do the research before buying it.
You are not going to get the results you are expecting from newer technology.

Geri wrote on 2022-11-25, 14:09:

Based on your list, you need a computer that has good dos and win9x support, but also can support xp era software and games as m […]
Show full quote

2mg wrote on 2022-10-04, 16:53:

I'm gonna stir the hornet's nest and probably flog a dead horse too, but here it goes.

Based on your list, you need a computer that has good dos and win9x support, but also can support xp era software and games as much as its possible.
For this purpose, you need something with an ISA port, such as a Slot1, a socket 370, or a slot -a motherboard. (k7 or pentium3).
Rare but possible is to find K7 (sockat-a) motherboards with isa slot. IRQ compatibility is might be limited on those, so you must do the research before buying it.
You are not going to get the results you are expecting from newer technology.

I've a 370 machine, a simple GeForce 2 slapped into it would rock anyway, but my question is if a socket 478 (W98/XP), since it is a "transitional" period to 775 (XP/Vista), could support both systems, both in compatibility and performance.

So far I've found out that using an AGP GF6xxx is an all-in-one solution, but forgoes a bit of legacy compatibility.
The PCI GF4 series + fast AGP card too gives up a bit of "turbo W98 games", but retains the compatibility.
And then you have the PCI FX5200/FX5500 256mb + any faster AGP card combo which is both fast AND compatible.

Now getting any of those running seems iffy...

And this is without the absolute maximums possible with using various "Service Packs", hacks, unofficial modded drivers, that one BFG card and so on.

A build like this isn't for pure DOS. All you need is somthing that can play DOS games run inside windows 98.

SB LIVE, or audidgy 2 zs is a fine enough card. It wont play everything under the sun but thats not what this is for.

A good GPU is a FX5900 XT with a 45.23 driver. Stay away fron 6x or 7x series cards. They are mega bad in 9x. If you don't care about perfect compatibility, a 98oo PRO or even better a X800 from ATI actually work better in 9x than nvidia cards from 6x or 7x series.

Get a mother board with 865 or 875 chipset becasue they are the last good boards with good 9x compatibility.

CPU just for a P4 northwood.

Now this isn't a late XP build if you want the ultimate XP build just go X58 chipset or somthing with a I7. This is a transistionary build and its pretty much perfect.

If you want a DOS build, make a socket 7 or a PII build.

2mg wrote on 2022-11-28, 02:40:

And then you have the PCI FX5200/FX5500 256mb + any faster AGP card combo which is both fast AND compatible.

95% of fx5xxx drivers with the pci card will either bsod from any 3d, or just produce garbage... 53.03, 56.55, 45.32, 45.23, 45.32 and driver versions around this are the only versions willing to work according to my personal experience. So do not expect such a giant compatibility which you would may assume from these cards.

From the tone of your posts sounds like your wanting to build an "ultimate" Win98 just for the sake of it rather then actual use?
Nothing wrong with that, I mean I did it!
P4P800 End of Win98 Support Build

If that is the case, then get the GF6, whichever Processor makes you feel happy (as all are crazy fast for Win9x) and build away 😀
Just keep in mind it makes for a low end XP Gaming PC and doesn't really offer anything over what your S370 PC cant do in Win9x.

Personally I do more of my Win9x gaming on the P3 and XP gaming on a LGA775 rig. This PC just sits in the middle unused.
but for whatever reason I can't bring myself to part it out, it's just nice knowing I have a stupid fast (if pointless) Win98 PC.

If I'm wrong and you do want this PC to be somewhat useful your probably better off building at as a pure Win98 PC and getting an AGP card with decent Win9x support.
For WinXP you have better cheaper PCIE cards available.
Although as you already said a S370/GF2 is more then good enough for Win9x games that wont work on later OS's.

My overkill Win98SE PC is a Socket 775:

Aerocool VX Plus 400W ATX
Biostar P4M890-M7 SE
Intel Core2Duo E4600
2GB (1x2GB DDR2)
Neowin 3.5" DS-HD
Seagate 80GB IDE
LG 16x DVD-RW SATA
ASUS AX850PRO PCIe 512MB
Typhoon A471-N60 (YMF744)
Typhoon A461-L00
Realtek RTL8100L 10/100 O/B
Windows 98SE/AntiX 19.3

I also stocked an X800GTO PCIe and a FireGL V7100 as backups. It works perfectly for what I need.

Warlord wrote on 2022-11-28, 03:05:

A build like this isn't for pure DOS. All you need is somthing that can play DOS games run inside windows 98. ... […]
Show full quote

A build like this isn't for pure DOS. All you need is somthing that can play DOS games run inside windows 98.
...

A good GPU is a FX5900 XT with a 45.23 driver. Stay away fron 6x or 7x series cards. They are mega bad in 9x. If you don't care about perfect compatibility, a 98oo PRO or even better a X800 from ATI actually work better in 9x than nvidia cards from 6x or 7x series.
...

This is the socket 478 AGP "mid-life of Win XP" machine, don't see (except lack of ISA) why it shouldn't double down as a "Turbo98" PC as well with the right components?

FX5900XT sounds tempting, but splitting it into GF6000 or later for XP, and PCI FX5xxx for fast and compatible W98.
GF4 for a backup/alternative non-DX9 for W98.

What's wrong with GF6000 series, people here praise them for W98 aside from some legacy stuff like table fog and 8bit palettes, but didn't hear a complaint about stability and drivers in W98?
ATi GPUs you mentioned also lack what GF6000 lacks, no?

Geri wrote on 2022-11-28, 11:54:

95% of fx5xxx drivers with the pci card will either bsod from any 3d, or just produce garbage... 53.03, 56.55, 45.32, 45.23, 45.32 and driver versions around this are the only versions willing to work according to my personal experience. So do not expect such a giant compatibility which you would may assume from these cards.

In Win98?
If yes, what's wrong with PCI FX5xxx and W98, W98 was made for PCI and AGP cards afaik?
What I've read here, they're the fastest AND most compatible for W98, tho didn't see if AGP or PCI...

chinny22 wrote on 2022-11-28, 12:44:

From the tone of your posts sounds like your wanting to build an "ultimate" Win98 just for the sake of it rather then actual use […]
Show full quote

From the tone of your posts sounds like your wanting to build an "ultimate" Win98 just for the sake of it rather then actual use?
Nothing wrong with that, I mean I did it!
P4P800 End of Win98 Support Build

...low end XP Gaming PC and doesn't really offer anything over what your S370 PC cant do in Win9x.

...probably better off building at as a pure Win98 PC and getting an AGP card with decent Win9x support.

It's just that on paper building a S478 XP+98 hybrid seems very viable - throw a fast DX9 AGP GPU for WinXP, and slap an FX5500 PCI for overkill in W98.
Limit RAM size, don't get an FX with more than 256 VRAM, limit Hyperthreading, and you have 999 FPS in Quake 3 and can still boot Tomb Raider 1, all in W98!
But that's on paper, that's why I'm here asking about making it work in reality.

The FX5xxx PCI is for max compatibility and fast speed in W98, and the whatever AGP for WinXP will be to make it more than a slow XP machine, it would be fast XP machine considering it's a S478 build made to be fast for a ~2005 PC (pre-775).
Also GF4 for backup in W98.

It's not about making the GODLIKE W98 build, ain't nobody got the 2020+ cash for that 😁 , it's about making a fast as budget/other allows for a mid-life WinXP PC that spins W98 too at overkill speeds (and as compatible as it can be).

Maybe I'm missing something - I do understand that dedicated builds always win out, but I don't see why this hybrid wouldn't be an optimal solution of compromises and bonuses, without driver hacks and whatnot.

I wanna say that S478 build seems like the most viable of all hybrid builds (W98+WXP).
A fast pre-Vista/socket 775 XP machine, and a VERY fast (and compatible) W98 machine.
Sure, the XP part in 478 is sluggish compared to best of what late 775 offers for XP, but that's another build altogether.

appiah4 wrote on 2022-11-28, 12:53:

My overkill Win98SE PC is a Socket 775: […]
Show full quote

My overkill Win98SE PC is a Socket 775:

Aerocool VX Plus 400W ATX
Biostar P4M890-M7 SE
Intel Core2Duo E4600
2GB (1x2GB DDR2)
Neowin 3.5" DS-HD
Seagate 80GB IDE
LG 16x DVD-RW SATA
ASUS AX850PRO PCIe 512MB
Typhoon A471-N60 (YMF744)
Typhoon A461-L00
Realtek RTL8100L 10/100 O/B
Windows 98SE/AntiX 19.3

I also stocked an X800GTO PCIe and a FireGL V7100 as backups. It works perfectly for what I need.

But this screams of "hacks" and "beyond overkill" - s775, SATA, Dual Cores, 512VRAM GPU PCIe - not saying it's bad or wrong or something,
it's more of a proof of concept how far can you push new tech to work with W98.

I'm trying a bit more to make 478 socket work as a solid hybrid - not the best XP nor the best W98 machine, but as close I can get - something that actually probably existed and worked in 2001-2005 era.
And 478 with AGP seems like a good choice for running a fast mid-life XP machine and a very fast but very compatible W98 machine.

Overkill is about pushing the envelope, no?

appiah4 wrote on 2022-11-30, 06:15:

Overkill is about pushing the envelope, no?

I did say beyond overkill 😉
And that there's nothing wrong with it, in fact it's impressive, just not what I'm going for here.

I say go for it, in the end only you will know if it works for you.

I miss understood you were installing 2 video cards. Assuming you would simply disable the GF6 in Win98 and FX in WinXP. otherwise it'll be very confusing driver wise as both cards share the same driver package.
That said I'm not even sure if you really need both video cards. Admittedly I didn't do much testing or troubleshooting but only game I remember not liking the GF6 was C&C Generals. Could well be all your games run fine?
As you have a backup Win9x PC I'd just play any games that don't like the GF6 on that and like you said get 999 fps in Quake 3

Also I never had any problems with HT enabled as Win98 just ignores it, if any inefficiency does exist the CPU is so overpowered for Win98 you don't notice anyway.

Worst case as I see it if the PC doesn't work out just forget about XP, chuck the FX card in and your still left with a crazy fast Win98 PC and as a worst case scenario it's a pretty good one.